How long does it take a good coach to build or rebuild?

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solo

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Frank Beamer took 6 or 7 years to really get VT going in the right direction.

Bob Stoops had success at OU immediately.

Saban had succes at LSU I believe in 2 or 3 years.

Grobe/Schiano took much longer at Wake and Rutgers.

Every siutation is a little different. But in general, how long should it take to:

1. Have a program heading in the right direction and
2. For a coach to have the program completely turned around

Does it just take some coaches longer than other to figure out how to do it?
 

goldandblue

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There are so many different elements that can make a difference. Just to name a few, coaching expeirence, assistant coaching, programs "properties" at time of hire and future "properties" problems down the road that are already set in stone, ie N.D. this year.
Support from admin,alumni, fans, players, etc etc etc. There are just too many different situations to be able to give a good idea of what is the right # of years it should take.

"Properties" meaning overall program situations.
 
S

solo

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Personally, I feel that you see most of what a coach can do in his first 3 years and all of what he can do in 5.

There are exceptions. But to every rule there is an excpetion.

Weis has shown that he can get us to a BCS bowl and also have the worst season in school history. Hopefully we'll get to see if he can have us competitive with everyone in the next 2 years.
 

goldandblue

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I do agree with you on your post. 5 years should be long enough. In your first post I thought you were trying to get some kind of exact answer. I don't think there is one.

Isn't that crazy about Weis... Back to Back BCS appearances and then the worst season in history! Furthermore tells me it's not all Weis' fault.
 

piyachi

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In general, yes it does vary. It's a much tougher job for someone like Schiano at Rutgers where you really don't have a foundation.

For Weis I think the fair amount having seen that we have forward progress is 5 years. That is plenty of time to assemble the right staff (sometimes you have to wait on someone a year or two), get the team to be 100% your players that you recruited, and get veterans who know your system.

That being said I don't think it's some sort of argument that we should have retained Ty (I know that isn't where you were heading). You need to see real bright points like this years recruiting and the prior two years legitimate teams.

If things shook out like rebuiliding most programs it would have been

year 1 - 3-9
year 2 - 7-5
year 3 - 11-1
year 4 - hopefully a nc

But we just mixed it up a bit, so I would say Weis is doing average to above average along a typical scale (purely hypothetical).
 

jonesman

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Guys,
Remember the reason most guys have success is one word, TALENT!!!!!!!!!! Stoops was able to increase the talent at OU quickly due to JC transfers. I even researched this one and he brought in somehwere around 7-9 JC transfers each of his first few seasons. Imagine plugging our DL, LB, OL and WR holes with a 21 year old proven player vs. an 18 year old freshman. Remember back in the day when Erickson went to Oregon St. and made them national power overnight. This was almost totally done via JC transfers. In fact, the year they crushed ND in a bowl most of their starters were JC transfers. Further, many of these kids simply dropped out of school following the bowl. This is NOT what any of us want in our ND program. We will be on track to field similar talent to any of the elite programs in 2008. The cupboard is filling quickly and the china a shiny and good.
 
M

Moostache

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It depends on a lot of factors...but one of the biggest is how much the previous staff left behind...

Take Ara as one example....1963 was horrid at ND (2-7), 1964 was a near-miss title (9-1). He had roughly the same players but moved them around and coached them up and the results were instant. Ara went on to win 95 games and 2 MNC.

Take Lou as another example....1985 was a nadir of sorts, with the bottom reached in the Orange Bowl Massacre (58-7 drubbing at the hands of Pig-faced Satan). 1986 was another 5-6 year but the team was in nearly every game and the fact that ND still had a lot of talent was obvious. Lou was not as instant as Ara in turning things around and making a sustained run of excellence, but he had a lot of tools to work with too. Lou went on to have 100 wins, 1 MNC and 2 near misses.

Then look at FUCUM last year....he was stocked on defense with almost all Zook-players. But even with that, it really took an inordinate amount of luck for UF to win it all last year - they dodged a sure loss with blocked kicks against Spurrier's SC team, they got lucky in avoiding LSU in the SEC title game (instead getting Arkansas - and nearly blew THAT as well), then they got OSU in the title game and were lucky to have the Bucknuts hurt their best playmaker on the celebration of the opening kick-off. Still, the convergence of factors led to a national title for them...what he ends up with is clearly in doubt now, as he has 3L's this year with a bowl game pending.

Who was the best coach in that group? Cases can be made on whatever side people would want to argue, but the one factor in all cases was a relatively stocked cupboard of talent that was immediately augmented with more talent. Those coaches had the luxury of full rosters of upperclassmen - and even though UF played a lot of freshmen and sophomores on their title team, they were all augmenting existing players on the team NOT outright replacing them.

Now on to Chuckles....Weis was outstanding in his opening 2 seasons. Sure, the results were marred by the 2006 blow-out losses, but I think 19-6 in 2 years was an achievment to be proud of regardless of how it ended. Coming into this season, Weis was hamstrung by a lack of depth across the board, but most glaringly on the O-line. He made more than his fair share of gaffes to make a bad situation worse; but in nearly every case the errors were due to trying to do something to win individual games - perhaps at the expense of the season as a whole.

To be honest, this year's ND season was over in the first quarter at Michigan. From that point on it was merely a matter of getting younger guys on the field and gaining experience for future seasons - despite what may have been said publically. I have no doubt that this could have been a factor in the much discussed and rumored rift between the upperclasses and the underclasses. The older guys - especially underperforming guys like Sullivan - could see the season for what it was at that point = an unmitigated disaster. With no future seasons to look towards, it is easy to see how they might chaffe a bit at the younger guys or harbor unspoken but clear resentment of them. Just another footnote in the ugliest season of ND footbal in 40+ years...

Any ND team with greater than 3 losses is in line for a shitty bowl game anyway... So, the $64,000 question we are all (as ND fans) trying to assimilate is "is Charlie Weis a bad coach or did he have a disasterous season"? That question is followed closely by muted expectations and things like "its not realistic to expect a team to go from 3 wins to 10 or more next year"...

I think Weis (until he proves otherwise - which would be easily achieved by falling on his face again to start next season) deserves the benefit of the doubt, and the assumption that this past season is an isolated occurrence. While many people now say things like 7-5 or 8-4 next season would be expected or improvement, who actually believed ND would go from 10 wins in 2006 to 3 wins in 2007? If they can fall that fast, what's to say they cannot just as quickly reverse it?

Can this team make a quantum leap forward - like 1964 - or is something more like a respectable (but disappointing finishing) season - like 1987 - more likely? There are a lot of factors for next year that make either of those outcomes far more likely than another sub-0.500 disgrace. the question of whether or not Charlie can become a program building coach or a terrible hinderence will be answered before the end of the Michigan State game next September.

He will have this team on one of 3 paths:

1) a 1964-esque turn-around season, going from 3-9 disaster to a 9-2 or 10-1 team heading to USC (for a possible showdown in the ROSE BOWL?!?!?!) and on the track for MNC contention...

or

2) a 1987-esque performance, taking a team of talented players on a baby-step journey from horrid to average to adequate before learning to become great...

or

3) a re-run of the mis-steps and gaffes that took ND from 10-1 in November of 2006 to 1-9 in November of 2007.

If it is either of the first 2 scenarios, I would be confident that Weis will have a lengthy stay in South Bend, eventually winning at least one MNC and accumulating 100 or so wins along the way.

If 2008 plays out like 2007 in any way - record-wise is obvious but just as important would be competitive scores in ALL big games and no titanic upsets like SDSU or Navy - then I would expect Weis to receive a buy-out and a new coach to lead his 4 recruiting classes into the next era of ND football...


-------------------------------------------

Useless tidbit of statistical nonsense / fun with numbers -
1963 (ewww) -----> 1964 (woo-hoo!!)
22 years later...
1985 (ewww) -----> 1986 (much better under the hood!!)
22 years later...
2007 (ewww) -----> 2008 (????????)

At that rate, I think in 2029 any of us Irish fans still around might be in store for another ewwww-type season....:geeza2: :( :puke:
 

piyachi

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1 - You write too fast....reps

2 - I think the schedule that lacks the punch of this year leads to a better season that most are willing to hope for so far... although there is a lot of time until we are there.
 

goldandblue

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are you a writer? You write very well. Good post.

I'm dreading 2029!
 
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