Blue & Gold, Tom Pagna Article!!! Good Stuff

[jonesman]

Folks,
I found today's article by Tom Pagna a very interesting read. It strikes me how many people see the same things in CW that concern me. Tom talks about Charlie getting more advise from his NE buddies. Not utiilizing his assistant's properly. Talent evaluation. The biggest one of all EGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are some interesting quotes and thoughts>>>>>>>
Pagna:
Charlie says it is because the New England Patriots schemes and his own are similar. This tells me he still thinks it has to do with schemes. He’s overlooking some things that are vital! The pro influence on the way the Irish practiced and dressed for practice is a large part of the problem – so why seek more of the pro input?
Thoughs: I have discussed this on here till I am blue and gold in the face. CW needs to put his freaking NFL rings and thinking in a safe until he leaves SB. The most successful offenses in college football would flop in the NFL and vice versa. Further, NFL preparation and practice are far different. You are looking at 18-19 year old kids vs. 24-25 men.

Pagna:
1. How can you give attention only to your starters? Two or more teams need to be prepared, not just for Saturday’s game but the future!
2. Why practice with no contact if it is a contact sport?
3. Examine the chemistry with the assistants. Are they afraid to give honest opinions or to confront you if it is perceived you could be wrong?
Thoughts: Goes back to the NFL mentality. But let's not worry because he is seeking help on this. Oh that is right, he is going to the NFL to get fixes on this.

Pagna:
Any successful person will tell you that when people are allowed to make a meaningful contribution, their interest and loyalty soar.
Our discussions were on every aspect: personnel, their placement, their evaluation, and the action needed to improve. These were daily considerations.
Thoughts: Does anyone believe that CW is giving his assistants this kind of opportunity to give input and the such. He needs to let his guys coach without fear being sent packing. I believe we have not lost more assistants due to the high pay. ND assistants are paid well above average.

Pagna:
Another truth is obvious: “The truly good never think they are!” There is no place for ego when the result affects so many lives and the reputation of a great university.
Thoughts: If there ever was a man who projected big ego, CW has done that.

Finally, I really really want Charlie to succeed at ND, however he is going to have to make some changes to his style to get there. Further, don't be so fast to keep going to Belichak and gang. Especially, since there is no coach in all of sports who project egotist bloat more than Bill. He may be the nicest guy in the world behind closed doors, but he projects A*%hole in public. Charlie, you are at the most famous college football university in the world, use the alumni coaches and players to help you. They ALL want to see the program win, plus some of them are pretty smart guys.

 

[ColonialHead]

Tom Pagna....

His resume is: sitting around and watching Notre Dame play football for the last 50 years.

My resume is: sitting around and watching Notre Dame play football for the last 30 years.

 

[TC_57]

Man, we build these guys (coaches) up, only to tear them down. I guess no one is good enough to be successful in this program. Lou was no longer good enough, Davie was not good enough, Ty was not good enough, Charlie is not good enough. You think Ara may be willing to come out of retirement? Or, is he not good enough either? Someone talk me off the ledge!

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Jonesman, I hate to break it to you, but a micro-manager is usually the last person to realize that he/she is a micro-manager. Even if he does, don't expect him to change his stripes overnight. If Weis does not eventually work out I believe it will be because of his micro-managing.

Not sure if Mack Brown & Nick Saban are similar to Weis in theis respect. If I had to guess I'd guess that Brown is a delegator & that Saban is a micromanager. THe reason I ask this question is b/c Mike Heywood coached under both at UT & LSU respectively. Makes you wonder how Heywood is working out under Weis. My gut feeling is that he will leave ND after this year or next.

For the sake of the long term health of ND football, Weis needs to be the long-term solution. Whether he is or not is up to Weis.

 

[jonesman]

Guys,
I am not looking to tear down Charlie. I think he has some very good trates. He is very orginized, has confidence, loves ND, has high standards, is good family guy, exudes honesty, knows football. Those being said, CW needs to work on his areas for improvement. Part of improving for him will be to get outside his box of familiarity. Einstein once said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Going back to NE again leans that direction. CW could get some college ideas from former coaches who have left the game, ie. Lou and players who have been thru successful programs, ie. Aaron Taylor. I like most of us hope and pray that Charlie is wildly successful at ND, but he needs to do some delegating and modify his NFL approach.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Guys,
I am not looking to tear down Charlie. I think he has some very good trates. He is very orginized, has confidence, loves ND, has high standards, is good family guy, exudes honesty, knows football. Those being said, CW needs to work on his areas for improvement. Part of improving for him will be to get outside his box of familiarity. Einstein once said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Going back to NE again leans that direction. CW could get some college ideas from former coaches who have left the game, ie. Lou and players who have been thru successful programs, ie. Aaron Taylor. I like most of us hope and pray that Charlie is wildly successful at ND, but he needs to do some delegating and modify his NFL approach.

Hey, I never insinuated that you were "tearing down Charlie". I'd say most every ND fan, incl. Pagna, is pretty much dead on in their assessment. My point is that Weis is human & we're all wired different.

I give him credit for willing to learn from his past mistakes. He did this after the Fiesta Bowl preparation, his recruiting policies, etc. I just don't see him giving up his control so soon. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe he'll do it when it's too late.

Unless, we see an improvement in the team next year (specifically the OL), we'll all be tired of the mere mention of Belichick, Parcells, the Patriots, etc.

Holtz was great at hiring assistants and letting them handle their area of expertise. He launched many a head coach in D1. Now, if the coach was failing, Holtz wouldn't hesitate to step in and remedy the situation. Just look at the '92 Sugar Bowl vs. UF, where Holtz canned the DC & took over defensive play calling by himself. And it worked.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I think it's easy for us to criticize the situation, but few of us (including Pagna) truly understand the whats and the whys. Before I go about bashing the process CW chooses, I want to see what happens next year.

 

[NDGirlzRock]

I think it's easy for us to criticize the situation, but few of us (including Pagna) truly understand the whats and the whys. Before I go about bashing the process CW chooses, I want to see what happens next year.

I agree with Stoney here....common guys CW works at the toughest job in CFB!!! Hell, it's tougher at ND than at most NFL teams!!! And if memory serves, Charlie said that he had a learning curve to go through from day one!!!! No one, not even Pagna, would have said such a thing last year when ND was winning!!! So this season has been difficult, some of it has been CW's fault, but much more has been the product of previous bad head coaching management!!! Let's see how next year pans out before we start casting stones in the direction of the head coaching office!!!

 

[ColonialHead]

I think it's easy for us to criticize the situation, but few of us (including Pagna) truly understand the whats and the whys. Before I go about bashing the process CW chooses, I want to see what happens next year.

Perfectly said Stoney. Those are my thoughts exactly.

The thing that bothers me the most is that Charlie is getting ridiculed for a comment he made (on the spot) admitting that he would solicit advice from New England in the off season.

Charlie said nothing about not soliciting advice form other college level professionals....
He didn't say that New England would be the only place he would turn for help...

He simply said that New England is one place he would be turning to for help. And now these sports writers, ex-coaches and other various "experts" want to ridicule the guy for his comment.

How can seeking advice from a winning organization like New England be anything but good?

Let's say, for arguments sake, that Pagna is right ad New England can't provide any help... is Charlie any worse off for the effort?

If nothing else, it proves that the man is willing to admit that he doesn't always have the answers and he's willing to get outside help.

Pagna found an angle to take this article. He used the "slap in former coaches face" card. That's a major reach. But it allows him to be critical of Weis without looking like he's all sour grapes. Ultimately though, he's just another former coach/player with sour grapes that they aren't a bigger part of the current picture.

Anyone who knows Pagna or has read some of the various articles that he has written, knows that he typically takes a negative slant towards the coaching. Why? Because he's one of those personalities that always thinks he could coach it better. Maybe that's one of the qualities that made him a decent coach back in the day.

But in 2007, Pagna hasn't got a clue. He may think he knows how to fix the Irish, but if the school outed Charlie and gave Pagna the job, he'd crap in his depends, fold up in the fetal position and need to be carried off the field. This isn't the 70's anymore. Kids have evolved. The game has evolved. Pagna is devolving.

As far as I'm concerned, all this negative crap makes guys like Pagna and Chmiel just as bad as Douchenberg. They may not be going coast to coast to bash Weis, but they have their platform (BGI) and they use that platform to whine like two old men who are angry over not having a place on this team anymore.

The bottom line is this, as far as I'm concerned, you're either with this program, or you're against it. That's just my personality. It's how I see things. The Charlie haters hate that philosophy because it makes them feel like less of a fan. And "how dare you tell someone that they aren't a "real" fan"... but the fact of the matter is that being a real fan means shutting your cakehole sometimes and just supporting the team.

Pagna needs to shut his cakehole.

 

[jonesman]

Colonial,
Read a comment made by Belichick where he was asked about the spread offense being run in college football and how it could succeed in the NFL. Belichick's comment was, "I REALLY DON'T WATCH COLLEGE FOOTBALL AND DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT SO I COULD NOT COMMENT". That makes me feel warm and fuzzy when I know that is who Charlie is going to for advise. Let's hope CW will seek some help beyond his NE buddies.

 

[Junkhead]

Unless, we see an improvement in the team next year (specifically the OL), we'll all be tired of the mere mention of Belichick, Parcells, the Patriots, etc.

I'm already there. Belichick, Parcells, the Patriots, Developing Tom Brady......all means nothing now. I'm sick of hearing about it. We'll see what happens next year.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

You guys are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too sensitive. I've not read any of the previous posts as ripping Charlie Weis.

It is a fact that Weis needs to distance himself from the complicated NFL schemes until his players are experienced & can master them. There are only 27 upperclassmen on scholarship & not much talent in that bunch.

In hindsight, ND may have been better off simplifying the blocking schemes in order to gel as a unit. Success begins & ends w/ the OL. Not saying ND would've been much better than 6-6 (regardless of coach) but the fact remains that this unit has not progressed one iota the entire season.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I know what the answer is, but I've decided I'm going to keep it to myself.

 

[kmoose]

Folks,
I found today's article by Tom Pagna a very interesting read. It strikes me how many people see the same things in CW that concern me. Tom talks about Charlie getting more advise from his NE buddies. Not utiilizing his assistant's properly. Talent evaluation. The biggest one of all EGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are some interesting quotes and thoughts>>>>>>>
Pagna:
Charlie says it is because the New England Patriots schemes and his own are similar. This tells me he still thinks it has to do with schemes.

No offense, jonesman, but if the rest of the article is similar to this start (I quit reading it at this point), then it's neither interesting, nor good.

His assertion that Charlie "still thinks it has to do with schemes" is an ASSUMPTION, on his part. Let's say Weis is going to talk to his boys at NE about schemes only (and that's a HUGE assumption): Is Weis supposed to stop trying to trying to come up with better schemes, just because there are other issues as well? This kind of thinking probably explains why Weis is the Head Coach at ND, and Pagna isn't. While Pagna, and the rest of us, have the luxury of saying, "the obvious problem is ________", Weis has to concentrate on EVERY aspect of the program. Perhaps he has plans to work on the other stuff, but just didn't choose to publicize where and how he was going to do it? Pagna's access to a blog make his words and insights no more informed or professional than any of ours here. At least we have the intellectual honesty to admit we are football fans, and hacks as analysts.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

No offense, jonesman, but if the rest of the article is similar to this start (I quit reading it at this point), then it's neither interesting, nor good.

His assertion that Charlie "still thinks it has to do with schemes" is an ASSUMPTION, on his part. Let's say Weis is going to talk to his boys at NE about schemes only (and that's a HUGE assumption): Is Weis supposed to stop trying to trying to come up with better schemes, just because there are other issues as well? This kind of thinking probably explains why Weis is the Head Coach at ND, and Pagna isn't. While Pagna, and the rest of us, have the luxury of saying, "the obvious problem is ________", Weis has to concentrate on EVERY aspect of the program. Perhaps he has plans to work on the other stuff, but just didn't choose to publicize where and how he was going to do it? Pagna's access to a blog make his words and insights no more informed or professional than any of ours here. At least we have the intellectual honesty to admit we are football fans, and hacks as analysts.

I don't have a problem w/ Pagna's opinions. He's seen & analyzed more Notre Dame football up close & personal than anyone on these sites both as an asst. coach & as Tony Roberts studio partner on many an ND broadcast. I believe he's coached n the NFL as well.

That being said, I take what he says w/ a grain of salt. You're correct in that it's all assumptions b/c we don't know what the hell goes on behind closed doors. There would be less speculation if the OL had show any progress this season but they continue to struggle in run blocking, pass blocking, picking up blitzes & stupid penalties.

 

[SoCalDomer]

It's not apathy from the downs and further downs (as opposed to ups and downs) from this season that drives me to say this. But I don't really care what CW does any more, except on Saturdays. That's not to say I'm not interested in what goes on, just that I'm not going to complain about his unconventional choices or doing things I don't agree with. (I'm not saying any of you are in this thread, I'm just sharing my thoughts.)

He can have the team practice in slow-motion, wearing pajamas, with their helmets on backwards just for giggles, play two-hand touch football, and implement an entirely new office every week. He can rotate the depth chart every quarter and favor seniors and juniors who mess up every week on gameday (and claim they show him something in practice). He can talk to NE coaches, call pass plays 100% of the game, act as offensive, defensive, special teams, snack and refreshments coordinators.

He can call as many screens plays as he wants, use the draw play as though it was the only running play in the playbook, go for it on 4th and 49, and not try to kick field goals to win the game. If he wants to buck the tried and true methods that are needed to win at the college level and stay the course to prove his NFL-ish scheming can work, I DON'T CARE.

The only criteria for me hereafter is to win. And I'm not just talking about the winnable games for next season. If Stanford can upset USC, App up-end Michgan, Vandy over (who'd they beat), R-kan-saw over #1 LSU, then he ought to be able to get lucky once a season and beat the Michigans, USC, OSU's or LSU. You only have to beat them once a season.

If he doesn't win I won't call for his head; I won't need to. He himself said if he doesn't win a NC by year 5, they should fire him. If they don't fire him, I'll continue to support the team and him, because I just want ND to succeed.

CW, this is just like Burger King: you can have it your way. But if you do it your way and fail, it's entirely on your head. If you can live with that, then I guess I have to as well.

I appreciate how much he does for ND off the field, how much effort he puts into recruiting, and how much he loves ND.

I probably wouldn't feel this way, at this point, if this season hadn't be such a raving failure. You blew all the patience I had ready to extend to you in one season. So it's time to win.

(Glad I got that off my chest. I feel much better. Just like undoing your belt at the Thanksgiving table.)

 

[bbrennan]

I think the article makes some good points. Taking a critical look at the assistant coaches on the staff and how CW does or does not relate to them is a legit issue that needs to be reviewed. We cannot keep putting this off until next year. I have said many times on this board that our assistants are not of the talent and experience we should have at ND. You cannot tell me that guys like Polian, Ianello and even Brown have the petigree to be in this high a profile position. They may be good recruiters, but are they good coaches. CW is learning on the job, he would be better served with assistants who were not also learning on the job.

The other thing that I think is often overlooked is the loss that we still suffer from when Cutcliffe had his illness and could not come to ND. This guy had CW's respect and knew the college game. He would have significantly advanced CW's learning curve and would be much better suited to develop our young guys, at least on the offensive side of the ball.

As for CW going back to the Patriots for advice. I think it is a good idea. The Patriots staff has credibility with CW. I would rather have him speak to guys with a similar system than spend more time with West Virginia to review a system that is 180 degrees opposite ours and does not fit our talent. That time with WV last year was a waste. CW was never committed to changing his system, so why bother and why confuse these young guys.

At some time CW and the staff have to stick with something. Sure they can continue to learn and tweak things, but find that identity we have all been talking about this year and perfect it.

 

[johnnd05]

You cannot tell me that guys like Polian, Ianello and even Brown have the petigree to be in this high a profile position.

Who cares about their "pedigree"? All that matters is the job they're doing (or not doing) as coaches.

 

[loomis41973]

Man, you guys are giving me worry lines.