mlcspinner
Please make me mod
- Messages
- 2,696
- Reaction score
- 521
now if GG could only get that Stoney character 
The BIG Recruiting lie told here.
- Thread starter ITellTheTruth
- Start date
now if GG could only get that Stoney character What is also interesting is the steady increase in talent (theoretically):
2005 - 4,807
2006 - 5,427
2007 - 5,603
2008 - 7,313 (assuming no more commits)
WeisWeisBaby
New member
- Messages
- 1,259
- Reaction score
- 79
ND will silence the unfaithful bandwagoners next year, as for me....I've got nothing but smiles until this Saturday, because we are going to KICK SOME BUTT!!!!!
Sureal
Ambassador of Good Will
- Messages
- 2,431
- Reaction score
- 316
check out some of the other sites. I can say that this site and another are like places of refuge for ND Refugees.
Some of these "Irish Football Sites" are brutal. Say anything positive you'll get smashed. I won't even post on some sites. This site and the other one I'm talking about ain't nowhere close to being that bad.
But wait the years to come and you'll be hearing sonnetts (spelling again) about this team.
SoCalDomer
New member
- Messages
- 4,954
- Reaction score
- 412
ITTTTTT is gone. why are we still posting in his turdy thread.
M
Moostache
Guest
1-9 is nowhere near acceptable. Never was. Never again will be either.
BUT...to attempt to lay it all at Charlie's feet and to make the leap that he (in the space of 1 year following the Army win and a 10-1 mark last season) has suddenly forgotten how to coach at all is ludicrous.
The reasons for the collapse of the Irish are legion and they are well documented on this and any number of other forums already. There is no magic bullet, no single cause, no lone gunman to explain it all away. Years from now, all of us who are Irish fans to the core will remember this year. We may even remember it as vividly as some of use remember 1973 or 1977 or 1980 or 1988 or 1993 or 2003 or 2005, even if those memories are only to remind us how far the program once fell.
I agree with everyone who says that recruiting alone cannot explain the depth of the Irish craptitude this season...but when people quickly want to absolve Ty and insist that he is somehow equally BLAMELESS in this mess, I have to call bullshit. It is NOT just the "rankings" of those classes that contributes Ty's portion of the culpability for 2007. It is the lack of numbers, the lack of core players for the O-line and D-line, the lack of total number of scholarships for god's sake!
ND is still in the mid-70's for scholarship players. It is playing with a roster of scholarship players on order with a program returning from SERIOUS NCAA sanctions! Expert or circus clown Tom Lemming (depending on your view) has been on record for years now saying that ND was on the tipping point edge of recruiting oblivion just 3 years ago. Weis was coaching Super Bowls while Ty was hitting sand traps and the bill for that work ethic (or lack thereof) had to come due at some point. Sure Ty is not at fault for Weis' inability to get more out of these players or for Weis' inability to squeeze faster development from the few players in the underclasses who HAVE been serviceable to promising to pretty good this year; but Ty IS responsible for the sheer lack of numbers in the program total.
I don't care if they were all part of #1 overall recruiting classes, the fact is that now - as they are currently configured and populated (total number of bodies left, total at each position), the senior class at ND this year is the WORST in D-1 football, period. Maybe they would have been ranked in the 60's or 70's, but to say that class was the 30th best in the nation NOW is crazy! The junior class split between Ty and Charlie is not a hell of a lot better. Throw in the "bust" factor - when the 4-stars like Jabbie, Vernalglia and Hord basically prove themselves to be over-rated in HS and underproductive at ND - and you prejudice the argument beyond repair to say that "other schools with less talent can win, why can't Weis?" Its not as simple as saying the talent is there (or at least as much talent as "X" school is there); the situation is more complicated than that.
The problem is not so simple that idiotic arm-chair fans and wannabe coaches or AD's can figure it all out, but a man with 30+ years of coaching and multiple successes at EVERY level of football (including at ND with a 2 year mark of 19-6) cannot. There is no doubt that blame for the this mess can be spread over many. many people; however, in the end analysis, the ONLY important thing is how does Weis address it for the future?
Can Weis win? Um....yeah, he can and has and will again (either at ND or in the pros again). 2005 was not a mirage...that team went from total offensive ineptitude (not quite as bad as this year, but pretty damn close) to an electric, high scoring fun to watch offense. They scored points by the gross and broke every passing record in the school's history. It was not done in a vacuum!
Can Weis communicate with young players? You CANNOT recruit the numbers and level of desired players (not just "star ratings" either - compare the other teams who want these players and their respective "talent" levels before assuming that only star ratings matter) he has in the last couple years without being able to reach young players at a very fundamental level. More so than that, you cannot have underclassmen lead the team in nearly EVERY category AND be actively engaged in selling even more talented future players to join up if you have no plan, no vision and no way of reaching the far shore of a tempestuous sea.
Weis and Brown are selling a dream to kids that a) ND WILL be back in the next 4 years, b) they will need all talented hands on deck to achieve this mission and c) these recruits will be the centerpieces of the end result - and judging by their results to date, they are buying into it in mind boggling numbers (1-9 team with the consensus #1 recruiting class??? are you serious??? How can THAT happen with a buffoon who has no clue on how to reach young players???)
You cannot tell me that gaining commitments from 2 of the top-100 players in the country after absorbing a 38-0 beating at the hands of USC meant nothing for the future. Likewise, you cannot convince me that given a full roster and a chance to learn from the mistakes of this season that Weis and CO. are incapable of winning again.
I saw Pittsburgh 2005, Purdue 2005 or Purdue 2006.
I watched Tennessee 2005 and Penn State 2006.
I remember LSU 2006 and OSU 2005.
I'll never get over USC 2005 - or that feeling of believing again after years of despair had beaten it nearly entirely out of me.
I remember that Weis was being given a lot of credit for that turn around and I agree that he deserves a lot of dissatisfaction and ire from the fans for this season's failure. But I also think calling him a fool, calling Weis a fraud, calling for a 4th coaching change in the span of 6 years (O'Leary 2002, Willingham 2002, Weis 2005 and ???? 2008) would essentially END Notre Dame football for a generation or more, if not forever.
Like it or not, the future of Notre Dame football is in Charlie Weis' hands - and I honestly believe that the volume and intensity of the people calling for Weis to go is heavily skewed by people who simply do not like him as a person and WANT to see him fail in some kind of perverse "I-told-you-so" way. Even if ND wanted to eat the contract extension and TRY to find someone else, who would want to sign up for such a mad house? Now, if next year resembles this year in any way, shape or form, then there would be ample cause to move on.
For what its worth, Notre Dame football has sunk to its lowest point ever. The current coach will bare that cross the rest of his life. I've said it before but some stains cannot be cleansed. He cannot be absolved by pointing out that he was dealt a bad hand for this season. He is guilty of poor decisions, bad coaching moves, being too willing to go brain dead in games for no apparent reason; but he is guilty of all of those things with extenuating circumstances, and he is NOT alone in the verdict either....
BUT...to attempt to lay it all at Charlie's feet and to make the leap that he (in the space of 1 year following the Army win and a 10-1 mark last season) has suddenly forgotten how to coach at all is ludicrous.
The reasons for the collapse of the Irish are legion and they are well documented on this and any number of other forums already. There is no magic bullet, no single cause, no lone gunman to explain it all away. Years from now, all of us who are Irish fans to the core will remember this year. We may even remember it as vividly as some of use remember 1973 or 1977 or 1980 or 1988 or 1993 or 2003 or 2005, even if those memories are only to remind us how far the program once fell.
I agree with everyone who says that recruiting alone cannot explain the depth of the Irish craptitude this season...but when people quickly want to absolve Ty and insist that he is somehow equally BLAMELESS in this mess, I have to call bullshit. It is NOT just the "rankings" of those classes that contributes Ty's portion of the culpability for 2007. It is the lack of numbers, the lack of core players for the O-line and D-line, the lack of total number of scholarships for god's sake!
ND is still in the mid-70's for scholarship players. It is playing with a roster of scholarship players on order with a program returning from SERIOUS NCAA sanctions! Expert or circus clown Tom Lemming (depending on your view) has been on record for years now saying that ND was on the tipping point edge of recruiting oblivion just 3 years ago. Weis was coaching Super Bowls while Ty was hitting sand traps and the bill for that work ethic (or lack thereof) had to come due at some point. Sure Ty is not at fault for Weis' inability to get more out of these players or for Weis' inability to squeeze faster development from the few players in the underclasses who HAVE been serviceable to promising to pretty good this year; but Ty IS responsible for the sheer lack of numbers in the program total.
I don't care if they were all part of #1 overall recruiting classes, the fact is that now - as they are currently configured and populated (total number of bodies left, total at each position), the senior class at ND this year is the WORST in D-1 football, period. Maybe they would have been ranked in the 60's or 70's, but to say that class was the 30th best in the nation NOW is crazy! The junior class split between Ty and Charlie is not a hell of a lot better. Throw in the "bust" factor - when the 4-stars like Jabbie, Vernalglia and Hord basically prove themselves to be over-rated in HS and underproductive at ND - and you prejudice the argument beyond repair to say that "other schools with less talent can win, why can't Weis?" Its not as simple as saying the talent is there (or at least as much talent as "X" school is there); the situation is more complicated than that.
The problem is not so simple that idiotic arm-chair fans and wannabe coaches or AD's can figure it all out, but a man with 30+ years of coaching and multiple successes at EVERY level of football (including at ND with a 2 year mark of 19-6) cannot. There is no doubt that blame for the this mess can be spread over many. many people; however, in the end analysis, the ONLY important thing is how does Weis address it for the future?
Can Weis win? Um....yeah, he can and has and will again (either at ND or in the pros again). 2005 was not a mirage...that team went from total offensive ineptitude (not quite as bad as this year, but pretty damn close) to an electric, high scoring fun to watch offense. They scored points by the gross and broke every passing record in the school's history. It was not done in a vacuum!
Can Weis communicate with young players? You CANNOT recruit the numbers and level of desired players (not just "star ratings" either - compare the other teams who want these players and their respective "talent" levels before assuming that only star ratings matter) he has in the last couple years without being able to reach young players at a very fundamental level. More so than that, you cannot have underclassmen lead the team in nearly EVERY category AND be actively engaged in selling even more talented future players to join up if you have no plan, no vision and no way of reaching the far shore of a tempestuous sea.
Weis and Brown are selling a dream to kids that a) ND WILL be back in the next 4 years, b) they will need all talented hands on deck to achieve this mission and c) these recruits will be the centerpieces of the end result - and judging by their results to date, they are buying into it in mind boggling numbers (1-9 team with the consensus #1 recruiting class??? are you serious??? How can THAT happen with a buffoon who has no clue on how to reach young players???)
You cannot tell me that gaining commitments from 2 of the top-100 players in the country after absorbing a 38-0 beating at the hands of USC meant nothing for the future. Likewise, you cannot convince me that given a full roster and a chance to learn from the mistakes of this season that Weis and CO. are incapable of winning again.
I saw Pittsburgh 2005, Purdue 2005 or Purdue 2006.
I watched Tennessee 2005 and Penn State 2006.
I remember LSU 2006 and OSU 2005.
I'll never get over USC 2005 - or that feeling of believing again after years of despair had beaten it nearly entirely out of me.
I remember that Weis was being given a lot of credit for that turn around and I agree that he deserves a lot of dissatisfaction and ire from the fans for this season's failure. But I also think calling him a fool, calling Weis a fraud, calling for a 4th coaching change in the span of 6 years (O'Leary 2002, Willingham 2002, Weis 2005 and ???? 2008) would essentially END Notre Dame football for a generation or more, if not forever.
Like it or not, the future of Notre Dame football is in Charlie Weis' hands - and I honestly believe that the volume and intensity of the people calling for Weis to go is heavily skewed by people who simply do not like him as a person and WANT to see him fail in some kind of perverse "I-told-you-so" way. Even if ND wanted to eat the contract extension and TRY to find someone else, who would want to sign up for such a mad house? Now, if next year resembles this year in any way, shape or form, then there would be ample cause to move on.
For what its worth, Notre Dame football has sunk to its lowest point ever. The current coach will bare that cross the rest of his life. I've said it before but some stains cannot be cleansed. He cannot be absolved by pointing out that he was dealt a bad hand for this season. He is guilty of poor decisions, bad coaching moves, being too willing to go brain dead in games for no apparent reason; but he is guilty of all of those things with extenuating circumstances, and he is NOT alone in the verdict either....