OK, so Kenny Rogers cheated......

[TheIrishHammer]

Did either of you bother to read the article? A major league bullpen coach (not me) said:



What this guy is saying is that Rogers didn't intend for the pine tar to get on the heel of his palm.

I understood what you were saying I just chose to gently point out how both you and the bullpen coach were wrong. Pine tar doesn't spread from the glove to the opposite hand unless he's sitting on both hands in the dugout trying to keep warm. Some logic should be applied here.

 

[NDAlumSon]

From the title, I thought this thread was about a card playin' country music singer. Oh well.

 

[jiggafini19]

What is a Selig to do?

The same thing he always does.

Nothing.

The man is a REACTIVE person as opposed to PROACTIVE. He cleans up the crap after it has already been splattered on the walls when he could have prevented the splattering from the beginning.

He won't do anything. Too busy counting his dollars

 

[UNTITLEDPROJECT]

I didnt read the posts in this thread. Im just going to say what ive been saying to my buddies.

LaRussa PROBABLY knew about what was going on. He PROBABLY had one of his minions report it, to mask himself from pissing Leyland off.

NOW, reasons for this are plenty. LaRussa (everyone and their mother knows) harbored 2 MAJOR juiceheads in our era (a third is Pujols). The last thing he wanted to do, was put his team in a media frenzy over steroids, cheating, and the like. He knew the press would be all over that like a bum on a ham sandwich. He has far to much on his plate to leave.

 

[Pete]

Ken Rosenthal from foxsports.com
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6088650

Before becoming Tigers' manager, Jim Leyland spent six seasons scouting for the Cardinals. He almost certainly knows where the Cardinals' balls are scuffed and where their bodies are buried. And if La Russa had pressed the issue with Rogers, Leyland could have responded in kind.

At that point, MLB's showcase event might have turned into a circus. The game would have been subjected to heavy criticism at a time when it's celebrating record revenues and, any moment now, a new labor agreement. And the Cardinals, well, who knows how much better off they would have been?

 

[guff]

I understood what you were saying I just chose to gently point out how both you and the bullpen coach were wrong. Pine tar doesn't spread from the glove to the opposite hand unless he's sitting on both hands in the dugout trying to keep warm. Some logic should be applied here.

I understand that you are WAY more knowledgeable on this subject than a major league bullpen coach. Heck what does he know? He only spends nearly every day of his life around pitchers.

The cheating pitcher puts the substance somewhere in the pocket of the glove. Not the part where the hand goes in but the part that is used to catch the ball.

Baseball lesson time: When a pitcher gets his signs he puts his hand in the glove and grips the ball appropriately. When his hand is in the glove the heel of his hand comes in contact with the leather and the substance.

But I’m sure you already know this considering you are omniscient and the greatest poster in the history of the internet.

(mumbles “F**king asshat, should have left him in Coventry” and walks away.)

VY, I hope you don’t mind that I stole your exit technique.

 

[ShivaIrish]

NOW, reasons for this are plenty. LaRussa (everyone and their mother knows) harbored 2 MAJOR juiceheads in our era (a third is Pujols).

I understand the claim about the first two, but how can you make that claim about Pujols. Because he's good? You can't just throw allegations around.

 

[UNTITLEDPROJECT]

I understand the claim about the first two, but how can you make that claim about Pujols. Because he's good? You can't just throw allegations around.

What, you mean you havent heard THEIR OWN FAN BASE saying it all season?!?

When Pujols got hurt, I heard countless rants about it.

 

[tedwick]

I think it was more to do with LaRussa not wanting Leyland to get involved... as someone on ESPN.com pointed out, Leyland scouted there for 8 years. He'll know when their pitchers are scuffing balls, etc. It would be mutually assured destruction.

 

[ShivaIrish]

What, you mean you havent heard THEIR OWN FAN BASE saying it all season?!?

When Pujols got hurt, I heard countless rants about it.

I know that sports fans like to follow the rumor mill as much as celebrity chasers, but that does not mean there is any basis for truth. I guess I can't say for sure that he does not take steroids, I would just rather have something more substantial before accusing another player of doing something illegal.

 

[Clotho]

Pujols is an obvious juicer, like Clemens. He was connected to the Grimsley thing earlier this season, for one, but even before that it was obvious. One year this guy is a 17th round draft pick, and miraculously the very next year he's an all-world major league rookie and triple crown threat. And that continues for years.

It's not rocket science. Boy, he really spent that year getting good, huh?

 

[marv81s]

proof? evidence? Its easy to blindly accusing someone of cheating. He hasn't gotten huge, he's always been a big guy. Unlike Sosa, Bonds, that pitcher from Az. There was a very noticable physical appearance change in those guys. Where is the evidence against Pujos? I am a Cub fan, so sticking up for a Cardinal is very much against my religion, but I don't like people being accused of cheating/lying without any evidence against them.

 

[TheIrishHammer]

I understand that you are WAY more knowledgeable on this subject than a major league bullpen coach. Heck what does he know? He only spends nearly every day of his life around pitchers.

The cheating pitcher puts the substance somewhere in the pocket of the glove. Not the part where the hand goes in but the part that is used to catch the ball.

Baseball lesson time: When a pitcher gets his signs he puts his hand in the glove and grips the ball appropriately. When his hand is in the glove the heel of his hand comes in contact with the leather and the substance.

But I’m sure you already know this considering you are omniscient and the greatest poster in the history of the internet.

(mumbles “F**king asshat, should have left him in Coventry” and walks away.)

VY, I hope you don’t mind that I stole your exit technique.

I see.....so the pitcher puts a gallon of pine tar in the pocket of the glove, thereby guaranteeing that everytime he catches the ball, it is sure to be covered in the shit. And since ESPN has located footage of Kenny's "dirty hand" as far back as June, you're trying to tell me that he continued seeing this mess on his hand, and yet was unable to figure out what was happening?

Yes, asshat would apply here.

And I appreciate that you've acknowledged my greatness. Let's just hope I don't scare you off before you've had time to enjoy it.

 

[NDAlumSon]

Everyone's juiced except Big Papi. That's pure mango/papaya juice, baby.
Next.

 

[maison bleu]

Bud Selig's to-do list:
First, strip Mark McGwire & Sammy Sosa of HR records for cheating.
Second, ban Barry Bonds for cheating.
Third, ban all three for life a la Pete Rose.
Then, go for it. Discipline KR.

Steroids are much worse than spitballs.

 

[brownkj002]

Do I personally think Rogers cheated? Yes. Do I think Pujols juices? No. Only reason for this is because there is some sort of evidence with Rogers. Saying that; every team cheats in the mlb. I am sure there are some players on both teams(StL,Det) that have "cheated" at some point this season or in their careers. That's how the mlb works. Do I still cheer for my White Sox even though some of them probably cheat? Of course. There isn't much anyone can do about it considering Selig doesn't really seem to mind.

 

[TheIrishHammer]

The plot thickens......

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15402869/

 

[tedwick]

my lord. first it was pine tar, now he was scuffing the ball. if he was cheating so badly, how come NOBODY actually challenged it during the game!? If it was THAT MUCH of a disadvantage, then somebody should have said something. Rogers scuffing the ball would have been caught on tape, and if the folks in the box could notice a discolored spot on Rogers' hand, surely they would have noticed points where he scratched the ball with his nail...

It's gone from quasi-legitimate beef to 5th grade schoolyard whining. "oh, he was cheating." well, fine. you should have gotten it checked out. "we've collected scuffed balls, though!" ok. so how come nobody caught him? if they thought kenny rogers was cheating, they should have done something about it. they can't hide behind the "oh, we didn't want to make a big deal about it" defense because, guess what, they're making a big deal about it. they had an opportunity to try and get rogers ejected, and they didn't even make an attempt. they were satisfied when rogers washed his hands. to be martyrs about it now is just ridiculous.

 

[guff]

TIH - You don't know anything until you know that you don't know it all.

I'll take the word of a guy that spends all of his time in a bully over the word of someone with an overvalued opinion of himself.

On Wilson A2000, the Rogers is wearing, the pine tar was most likely located in near the stitching just above the script "W" in the word Wilson. The pocket of the glove but not area that routinely comes in contact with the ball. The area also lets you use the glove like an artists palette, dabbing on and off the offending junk like some sort of cheating Rembrandt.

 

[TheIrishHammer]

TIH - You don't know anything until you know that you don't know it all.

I'll take the word of a guy that spends all of his time in a bully over the word of someone with an overvalued opinion of himself.

On Wilson A2000, the Rogers is wearing, the pine tar was most likely located in near the stitching just above the script "W" in the word Wilson. The pocket of the glove but not area that routinely comes in contact with the ball. The area also lets you use the glove like an artists palette, dabbing on and off the offending junk like some sort of cheating Rembrandt.

Can someone provide me with the English translation of this? Thank you in advance.

That's quite the theory you and the bull in the bully have come up with. Of course, using your theory, neither you or the bully bully didn't answer why Kenny wasn't able to figure out that he was applying it incorrectly over a four month span.

And greatness can never be overvalued. My cup runneth over. It is what it is.

I have spoken.

Peace
--TheIrishHammer

 

[guff]

On Wilson A2000, the Rogers is wearing, ...

Sorry should be - On Wilson A2000, the glove Rogers is wearing, ...

Here's a visual aid Visual aid Wilson A2000

And as for that cup running over - ain't hard to flood a shotglass

It's at this point that I would offer up an analogy about the internet arguing and the Special Olympics but I don't want to be that offensive.

 

[luckofirish8]

You two settle down...it will all be o.k. You're both great in your own right!

But Roger's (and countless another pitchers) did/do cheat. If the ump didn't think the substance was illegal, he would not have ask him to removed it. It was not dirt, because dirt is not illegal and the ump "asked" Roger's to remove it. He cheated, but at this point nothing will be done about it.

So, you two agree to disagree on this one and remember what the two of you have in common...Notre Dame Football...and greatness depending on which one of you you ask.

 

[Clotho]

There are a lot of people in this thread who don't understand the concept of circumstantial evidence.

Here's a question, then; how did Pujols go from so bad, or so average, that he was the 17th round draft choice of the Cards (meaning that all 30+ teams passed him over 17 times, or that 510 players were taken ahead him), to, within a year, a YEAR, become a triple crown threat and the second or third best hitter in the sport, after Bonds and ARod? In a year! That's a second in baseball time. Studs stay in the minors for two or three years, usually, at the least. A player jumping through that quick is unusual; a 17th rounder doing it is unheard of; a 17th rounder doing it and then dominating the majors, a year after having been picked 511th or so, just doesn't occur naturally.

So please explain to me how Pujols got so good, so fast. I'm all ears.

 

[guff]

I think you are mischaracterizing Pujols career. He was drafted in the 13th round not the 17th. The baseball draft is much different than any other draft. You can’t look at as he was 402nd player taken in the draft, you have to break it down by pitchers and ‘everyday’ players. The first round (50 picks or so) of most baseball drafts is almost entirely pitchers, and in the second and third rounds most of the picks are pitchers. So to be accurate you would find out how many position players where taken before him.

For comparison sake Jim Thome was also taken in the 13 round. Mike Piazza was taken in the last round or next to last round as a favor by Tommy Lasorda. Jake Peavy was taken in the 15th round - a ton and half of pitchers were taken before him. Overlooking someone in the MLB draft is closer to the rule than the exception.

I believe his ‘low’ draft status may have been because of fielding concerns. He is not a “5 tool player”. Teams aren’t going to draft an Edgar Martinez type player with a high pick. If there is a question about his fielding skill he’s not going high.

Second Pujols has always been a hitter. He has mashed it at every level. And from everything I’ve read (and that’s been quite a bit) he has always been a big guy. There was no Bondsian body transformation that would indicate steriod/HGH use.

I know we are all a little skeptical but some athletes are just special. I think Pujols is one of those guys. And I haven’t seen any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, that would make me think differently.

I think it's on you to bring more to the table than he was late round draft and now he's a home run hitting future Hall of Famer.

 

[ShivaIrish]

For comparison sake Jim Thome was also taken in the 13 round. Mike Piazza was taken in the last round or next to last round as a favor by Tommy Lasorda. Jake Peavy was taken in the 15th round - a ton and half of pitchers were taken before him. Overlooking someone in the MLB draft is closer to the rule than the exception.

I believe his ‘low’ draft status may have been because of fielding concerns. He is not a “5 tool player”. Teams aren’t going to draft an Edgar Martinez type player with a high pick. If there is a question about his fielding skill he’s not going high.

Second Pujols has always been a hitter. He has mashed it at every level. And from everything I’ve read (and that’s been quite a bit) he has always been a big guy. There was no Bondsian body transformation that would indicate steriod/HGH use.

I know we are all a little skeptical but some athletes are just special. I think Pujols is one of those guys. And I haven’t seen any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, that would make me think differently.

I think it's on you to bring more to the table than he was late round draft and now he's a home run hitting future Hall of Famer.

Right on.

 

[TheIrishHammer]

Sorry should be - On Wilson A2000, the glove Rogers is wearing, ...

Here's a visual aid Visual aid Wilson A2000

And as for that cup running over - ain't hard to flood a shotglass

It's at this point that I would offer up an analogy about the internet arguing and the Special Olympics but I don't want to be that offensive.

I see you've decided to completely avoid the point offered up and I understand your attempted stab at humor as it's all you have left. This is what is commonly referred in the land of cyber as the French ploy, where you crawl away ass-backwards attempting to hurl insults. And it wasn't all that bad for your first attempt with me. I give it a 6 out of 10.

OK, so you believe that Kenny placed the pine tar on his right hand and, for four months, had no idea it was transferring over to his left hand. Kinda like when your neighbor's briefs ended up in your washing machine and the wife told you that they must've come over through the sewer line, huh?

Gotcha.

 

[TheIrishHammer]

You two settle down...it will all be o.k. You're both great in your own right!

But Roger's (and countless another pitchers) did/do cheat. If the ump didn't think the substance was illegal, he would not have ask him to removed it. It was not dirt, because dirt is not illegal and the ump "asked" Roger's to remove it. He cheated, but at this point nothing will be done about it.

So, you two agree to disagree on this one and remember what the two of you have in common...Notre Dame Football...and greatness depending on which one of you you ask.

Never you mind me. My posts are tongue-in-cheek. A style I adopted after reading the thoughts of people who actually believe they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, if you can call sliced bread great.

Of course, I am the greatest at what I do on message boards.....




















....and that is stirring the pot.

 

[tedwick]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd feel comfortable in calling sliced bread pretty damn great... but that's just my 2 cents.

 

[jiggafini19]

Of course, I am the greatest at what I do on message boards.....

At 4 AM in the morning, I'm impressed and certainly agree.

 

[NDAlumSon]

Is this the same 'ball pean' Hammer that contributes at IRT?