Any reservations on the "Greatness" of Charlie Weis

[jiggafini19]

Depth is definatly an issue, but last year is the biggest problem for depth, and that you can't blame on the past coaching staff...that has more to do with the mismangement of the situation by the Administration.
Weis said himself he does not plan on recruiting more than like 18 kids a year

Wow. I see where this is going.

I"m not getting into this argument because I'm one of the people on this board that doesn't like to discuss you know who.

Weis took 27 players in this last class. There were 31 COMBINED in the previous two classes and 27 of them remain now.

He has to take 25 again in 2007 and after that it will be (hopefully) back to normal.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Wow. I see where this is going.
I"m not getting into this argument because I'm one of the people on this board that doesn't like to discuss you know who.

I agree this topic did get sidetracked when Aerosmith brought up Willingham

Weis took 27 players in this last class. There were 31 COMBINED in the previous two classes and 27 of them remain now.
He has to take 25 again in 2007 and after that it will be (hopefully) back to normal.

This is true but for the 2004 class we only had 19 Scholarships to give and for the 2005 class we fired our coach in November and didn't have a new coach till Jan and then he couldn't get on the recruiting trail and we lost not only players interested but committed players, and Weis first recruiting season was dismal.

This is Weis said he could have had more players but he wanted to wait till this year and start fresh

if we go 10-3 and play in a BCS bowl in 2007 I'd be a lot more impressed with Weis but I wouldn't pass judgement on him good or bad really till after his 5th year...unless he does something amazing before then

 

[jiggafini19]

He has to get his guys on the field and flush everyone else out so that all of the previous staff's players are out.

This isn't like what Urban Meyer got at Florida from Zook and Spurrier. Only that bozo is running a system offensively that doesn't fit the personnel he has. But the defense? Awesome. Florida's D was ready to go right when he got there. Weis is in the exact opposite situation. He has offensive pieces to play with, but the D is pretty thin.

Weis has early enrollment and a bit better administration to work with, but he's ten times the recruiter Notre Dame has had in the last ten years. That barnstorming tour a year ago paid major dividends and he's getting to guys early. He's not waiting for players to come to ND. He is seeking THEM out and selecting them.

So far.....

 

[irish4life99]

I tried to warn you about FI9. He brings up Weis and makes comparsions BAITING anyone to mention the name Ty and tries to turn it on you. My suggestion is to just say sure FI9, Ty was the greatest coach ND ever had and move on. This is all he's done on ESPN since the day Ty was fired.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

I tried to warn you about FI9. He brings up Weis and makes comparsions BAITING anyone to mention the name Ty and tries to turn it on you. My suggestion is to just say sure FI9, Ty was the greatest coach ND ever had and move on. This is all he's done on ESPN since the day Ty was fired.

I have never said Willingham was even a good coach, why don't you keep these childish posts on the ESPN board...if you don't wish to discuss ND football why are you here?

I have yet to see you make one post about the sports at ND since I started posting here

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

He has to get his guys on the field and flush everyone else out so that all of the previous staff's players are out.

I agree, thats why I'm reserving judgement until after his 4th year...actually with Weis I'd wait till the 5th year because of the team he will have in 2007

This isn't like what Urban Meyer got at Florida from Zook and Spurrier. Only that bozo is running a system offensively that doesn't fit the personnel he has. But the defense? Awesome. Florida's D was ready to go right when he got there. Weis is in the exact opposite situation. He has offensive pieces to play with, but the D is pretty thin.

Agreed, I think Weis walked into a Good offense and thin D, thats why I'm not sold on all this greatness stuff since the offense played well as I expected (though they put up bigger numbers than I expected) but the D actually got worse.

Weis has early enrollment and a bit better administration to work with, but he's ten times the recruiter Notre Dame has had in the last ten years. That barnstorming tour a year ago paid major dividends and he's getting to guys early. He's not waiting for players to come to ND. He is seeking THEM out and selecting them.
So far.....

Agreed, that he did a good job this year, but lets not forget that our class was made up mostly of 3 star recruits. Its a good class and a good start but we are going to have to do better than that if we are going to compete like USC

 

[irish4life99]

I have never said Willingham was even a good coach, why don't you keep these childish posts on the ESPN board...if you don't wish to discuss ND football why are you here?
I have yet to see you make one post about the sports at ND since I started posting here

I do post about ND sports. If you would notice this is the only thread in which I will not respond to the context. This is because I know you, and have seen this types of Ty vs. Weis thread from you a hundred times. I'm only replying as a service to these other posters that don't know you yet. I know everyone will figure you out sooner than later that you are the most critical ND fan they've ever met. Tell you what, I'll discuss your favorite, and often only, topic of Ty vs. Weis in two more years when we can all do a fair comparison. However, I'm confident by then there will not be much to compare and you'll not want to discuss the subject any longer.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

I do post about ND sports. If you would notice this is the only thread in which I will not respond to the context. This is because I know you, and have seen this types of Ty vs. Weis thread from you a hundred times. I'm only replying as a service to these other posters that don't know you yet. I know everyone will figure you out sooner than later that you are the most critical ND fan they've ever met. Tell you what, I'll discuss your favorite, and often only, topic of Ty vs. Weis in two more years when we can all do a fair comparison. However, I'm confident by then there will not be much to compare and you'll not want to discuss the subject any longer.

I can see you don't read here either, No one is trying to compare Weis to Willingham, I have said there and I will say here I think Weis is probably a better coach than Willingham.

This thread isn't about Willingham, its about Weis, and if you think the turn around was great or not.

I don't care about Willingham, I'm simply looking for a discussion of Weis based on the team and schedule he had, if people think what he is "great" or if there is still alot to prove.

If you wish to discuss this, then welcome..if you wish to whine about things that aren't being discussed, start a new thread so we don't have to see it.

 

[BigIrish]

i, for one, would like to bask in the glory of the first season a long time where i could sit through an entire game without hearing that deafening SUCKING sound that i've been hearing for the past 10 years before i get too critical over a first year coach that, by most respects, had a better season than anyone expected him to have.

i don't care if you like Ty better than Charlie or not. Just stop pissing on a season that finished with us ranked higher for the first time in years than michigan, boston college, and a sh$tload of other teams i hate. Once spring ball starts, you can analyze our deficiencies to death. Until then, I'm calling for a moratorium on the fingernail chewing second guessing that seems to occupy ND fans throughout the offseason.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

i, for one, would like to bask in the glory of the first season a long time where i could sit through an entire game without hearing that deafening SUCKING sound that i've been hearing for the past 10 years before i get too critical over a first year coach that, by most respects, had a better season than anyone expected him to have.

i don't care if you like Ty better than Charlie or not. Just stop pissing on a season that finished with us ranked higher for the first time in years than michigan, boston college, and a sh$tload of other teams i hate. Once spring ball starts, you can analyze our deficiencies to death. Until then, I'm calling for a moratorium on the fingernail chewing second guessing that seems to occupy ND fans throughout the offseason.

And that is your right, no one forces you to read these threads...

Some people want to talk about the state of the program, want to discuss the quality of the coach, what praise they think he does or does not deserve.

Some want to speculate on the depth charts, the quality of our opponents next year and so on..

I for one will start many threads that will get many posts and will cause alot of discussion. To me the point of boards like this is to discuss things. If you want to just sit back and bask in the glory no one is stopping you

 

[guff]

...since the offense played well as I expected (though they put up bigger numbers than I expected)...

Allow me to elevate the debate - Liar Liar pants on fire.

No one expected ND to finish in the top ten nationally of nearly every offensive catergory. No one - even the guy on the front of Hesburgh Library was surprised.

For some reasons there are a lot of ND fans - FI9 is not alone in this - that are either afraid or unwilling to believe that Weis is one of the elite football coaches at any level. He is. If you don't think so check his resumé.

Now that Weis has film of Mushagain, USC, MSU against his team - Watch out.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Allow me to elevate the debate - Liar Liar pants on fire.
No one expected ND to finish in the top ten nationally of nearly every offensive catergory. No one - even the guy on the front of Hesburgh Library was surprised.
For some reasons there are a lot of ND fans - FI9 is not alone in this - that are either afraid or unwilling to believe that Weis is one of the elite football coaches at any level. He is. If you don't think so check his resumé.
Now that Weis has film of Mushagain, USC, MSU against his team - Watch out.

OK, lets look at his resume...He has proven himself to be a great offensive cordinator at the NFL level and no one questions his resume as an offensive cordinator...

What is in question is his resume as a College Football Head Coach...

He is 0-2 against the top 25
He only has 2 wins against teams with winning records
8-4 Navy
7-5 Michigan
He has the first home loss to a sub .500 team in over 20 years
He has a close loss to one of the top 5 teams in the nation
He racked up alot of offensive yards against of a lot of average teams
He has 7 wins against teams .500 or worse
That is his resume as a college Head coach...


Nobody is saying he isn't a good coach, Nobody is saying he couldn't become a great coach...

Some are simply saying they aren't sold on his greatnes just yet

 

[irish4life99]

I for one agree with you BigIrish. It was finally nice to see a season that you know that this team played with heart. Knowing that even if we got behind we had the skills and the tenacity to play an entire 60 minuets. However, if you're looking to get any praise to Irish football from the poster that started this thread I would not hold my breath. As said earlier, I've never heard anything other than skepticism and negativity. If one cannot see the night and day difference in coaching and recruiting you either have to be very obtuse, or slighted at the fact that Ty Willingham was fired. I've never accused this poster of being obtuse.

 

[guff]

Being the head coach at ND is more than just winning. If a coach wants to have a long career he has to win and he has to do it right. In addition to winning Weis has (to name a few):

breathed new life into a DEAD program
ran "pass right" from his own 1/2 foot line
taught us all a lesson by walking into USC'S locker room after an epic loss
motivated 45,000 people to show up at a pep rally
brought legendary players back to connect the past with the present
shunned a reported in favor of standing with the Midshipmen during their Alma Mater
opened a football press conference by praising- at length - the grades of player

Some people look at the Mona Lisa and see a picture of a lady, others see a masterpiece.

 

[Vince Young]

Some people look at the Mona Lisa and see a picture of a lady, others see a masterpiece.

In regards to Charlie Weis's coaching career at Notre Dame, I, for one, happen to see a VERY well-done picture of a lady.

Time will tell if it's a masterpiece.

{gump}And thaht's awl ah have tah say about thaht.{/gump}

 

[jiggafini19]

Agreed, that he did a good job this year, but lets not forget that our class was made up mostly of 3 star recruits. Its a good class and a good start but we are going to have to do better than that if we are going to compete like USC

Again, if you're going by Scout.com this is accurate. Otherwise, no.

Personally, I happen to think from an evaluation standpoint that Morrice Richardson (was), Toryan Smith, Rob Parris, Luke Schmidt and Munir Prince are four star caliber based on the criteria of these ranking systems and all that I've seen of them.

Rivals has ND with 10 4 star and 14 3-star.

It was a consensus top ten class by nearly everyone who is paid to rate that kind of thing.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Again, if you're going by Scout.com this is accurate. Otherwise, no.
Personally, I happen to think from an evaluation standpoint that Morrice Richardson (was), Toryan Smith, Rob Parris, Luke Schmidt and Munir Prince are four star caliber based on the criteria of these ranking systems and all that I've seen of them.
Rivals has ND with 10 4 star and 14 3-star.
It was a consensus top ten class by nearly everyone who is paid to rate that kind of thing.

Yes it was a consensus top 10 class but one of the reasons ND ranked so high was the number of recruits, Look at where we rank when it goes by average star ranking...out of the top 10 in most

In these rankings quanity counts equally to quality.

Its a good class no doubt, Im just not going to call it great

 

[BigIrish]

Yes it was a consensus top 10 class but one of the reasons ND ranked so high was the number of recruits, Look at where we rank when it goes by average star ranking...out of the top 10 in most
In these rankings quanity counts equally to quality.
Its a good class no doubt, Im just not going to call it great

are you kidding me? just how much talent would we need before you'd call it a great class? and who, outside of the recruiting services, actually buys into the star system like that?

with the exception of defensive tackle, charlie got EVERYBODY he went after. so keep in mind that when you downplay the talent in this recruiting class, you're actually downplaying Charlie's abilities to judge talent.

We get it. you're not sold on the current coaching staff quite yet. point taken.

 

[jiggafini19]

Charting The Stars
Pete Sampson

The reaction is both predictable and involuntary.

Sarmardzija from a three-star rating to holding Notre Dame single-season records for receiving yardage and touchdowns.

When Rivals.com or any other recruiting service releases its final rankings leading up to Signing Day, a handful of names appear on message boards or blare on talk radio with speed far better than any 40 time. They're the under-rated, under-valued, under-appreciated prospects from years past, players considered regional recruits that blossomed into All-Americans.

For Notre Dame fans, Jeff Samardzija rates as the patron saint of three-star prospects. In 2003, Rivals ranked the Valparaiso High School senior with the same number of stars found in Orion's Belt, but three seasons later he's a consensus All-American and probable first-round pick in 2007. He holds Notre Dame single-season records for receiving yardage and touchdowns.

Exactly how many three-star prospects grow into All-Americans? More than you might think. And what about all those five-star, can't-miss recruits? Turns out they get their fair share of college honors too.

Survey this year's first-team All-America squads produced by ESPN.com, CBS Sportsline and the Football Writer's Association of America and more former three-star prospects show up than five-star recruits. Notre Dame fans have their Samardzija, but there's also Ohio State's A.J. Hawk, Penn State's Paul Posluszny, Alabama's DeMeco Ryans and USC's Taitusi Lutui.

On those three All-American teams, nine three-star prospects made the cut; five five-star players earned the same honor.

The All-American teams of ESPN, CBS Sportsline and FWAA included 33 different players, although these statistics don't include seven fifth-year seniors because Rivals' star rankings for 2001 aren't available. That means 26 players are included in these All-American totals. Here's the breakdown: five five-star prospects, eight four-star prospects, nine three-star prospects and four two-star prospects.

The former five-star prospects that earned first-team All-American status were Texas quarterback Vince Young, USC running back Reggie Bush, UCLA tight end Marcedes Lewis, Oregon defensive tackle Haloti Ngata and Texas defensive tackle Rod Wright.

Despite winning All-American honors, the former two-star prospects to win first-team All-American honors probably aren't household names: Tulsa tight end Garrett Mills, Minnesota center Greg Eslinger, South Carolina defensive back Ko Simpson and Texas Tech safety Dwayne Slay.

So why the similar turnout of All-Americans between every star classification?

For starters, the system and supporting cast matter. Samardzija might still be a secret outside of South Bend if not for Rhema McKnight's knee injury that pushed him into the starting lineup. Having an NFL offense to run routes in helps. So does a quarterback that could go No. 1 overall next year.

On the flipside, consider the three receivers rated as five-star prospects in 2003. Florida picked up commitments from Chad Jackson and Andre Caldwell that season, while Tennessee landed Robert Meachem.

After coming to Florida under Ron Zook with promises of playing in a pass-happy game plan, Jackson and Caldwell now work in Urban Meyer's spread option, which doesn't showcase receivers in the same way a pro-style offense does. Jackson made 88 catches last fall for 900 yards, good for a 10-yard average per catch. A broken leg limited Caldwell to three games.

As for Meachem, Tennessee's passing game couldn't feature Randy Moss last season with all the Volunteers' quarterback troubles. Meachem finished with 29 catches for 383 yards and two touchdowns.

The three former five-star prospects combined for 127 catches, 1,431 yards and 11 touchdowns in 2005. Samardzija put up 71 grabs for 1,190 yards and 15 scores.

The biggest factor that spreads All-Americans across the star spectrum is the disparity in numbers between the groups. This year Rivals ranked 38 prospects with five-star distinction (that includes junior college and prep school prospects). Meanwhile, 332 players earned four stars while 856 picked up three stars and 1,920 had two. Apply those figures to this year's All-American teams and you can expect one out of every 7.6 five-star prospects to grow into an All-American while the figure jumps to one in 41.5 among four-star prospects and one out of 95.1 in the three-star category.

Infallible math? Hardly, because in the world of college athletics there are too many variables that affect outcomes. However, these stats do shed some light on the correlation (or the lack there of) between high school accolades and college success.

Take these star rankings for what they are – a reasonable assessment of players' physical ability right now. There's no prediction on how these programs use personnel, what injuries might pop up or how a coaching change could affect the equation.

There will always be Jeff Samardizjas and A.J. Hawks, players that slip under the recruiting radar to later win All-American awards. Just keep in mind how often they come along.

 

[jiggafini19]

Fighting Irish 9 is becoming my guilty pleasure on this board. You've fished me in, but since I'm a Moderator...what the hell, right?

Couple of things here, and this is repeat crap for many of you regulars, but I'll piss into the wind anyway just for fun. After all, we don't have to read these threads if we don't want to and blah blah blah, right?:

1. Notre Dame had so many early verbals before they even played Pitt that this class was somewhat anti-climactic. It also didn't make for good stories for people like Rivals and Scout to sell subscriptions or generate interest. Recruits like Walls, Frazer, Morrice Richardson and Konrad Reuland were all downgraded before LOI day by Rivals....and strangely after they had verballed to Notre Dame. Raeshon McNeil was the only player upgraded on Rivals. Reuland, Walls and Carufel were all considered the best players in America at their positions at one point or another. The subject is open to debate and what Rivals/Scout/Lemming said is not written on stone tablets.

Oklahoma State and Ole Miss both took 29 recruits and they were ranked 22nd and 16th, respectively. Your strength in numbers argument isn't a very good one. Per the Rivals system, ND had 2 five star recruits and 10 four star, plus 14 three star and a 2 star kicker that weighed the average down some (Another reason Jigga hates kickers).
Ole Miss broke down on the 5-4-3 scale at 2-7-15 and OSU was 0-6-18. Texas Tech? They took 34 players. Their breakdown was 0-4-22.

2. The article above should make a few things clearer about these star rankings. Go further back on the 2002, 2003 and even 2004 Rivals rankings and see where some of these guys are now. You won't recognize the names because many haven't seen the field for various reasons. Then look at what players at schools like Virginia Tech, Utah and West Virginia have done with their careers, just to name a few.
Rob Parris, Kallen Wade, Sergio Brown, Toryan Smith and Luke Schmidt will all be stars at Notre Dame because they fit the system quite well. And because of depth issues, they'll see the field early and log lots of minutes over four years, thus gaining a great deal of experience which will add to their value and production. All those guys are "three star" players. Now guys like Walls, Frazer, Reuland...they could be busts and the three star guys no one wanted could end up studs. We just don't know yet.

3. Again, Notre Dame had Gerald McCoy all but signed but because the stork will be visiting him soon, he will have to stay close to home at OU in Norman. Certain accomodations could not be made at ND due to his situation, so he decided to go to school 30 minutes from his home so he could take care of his responsiblities in such said matter. That is neither here nor there, but it does support the statement made by BigIrish.

4. When you say 0-2 against the top 25, I am assuming that is the FINAL poll you are referring to? Because Weis beat some ranked teams when he coached against them, so again a rather debatable argument.

Again, a guilty pleasure. I typically like to talk about things in the now or future that haven't happened yet. 2005 is over. Spring ball is coming up, junior offers are starting to mount and there are three pretty good freshmen on campus already getting their feet wet as early enrollees.

Charlie Weis has had 12 games as a collegiate head coach. It is in our nature, as a society that gets everything instantly, to want to predict and jump ahead. Reserve judgement until a few years down the road. We'll know by then how great he is.

 

[scooper]

 

[BigIrish]

Exactly.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Fighting Irish 9 is becoming my guilty pleasure on this board. You've fished me in, but since I'm a Moderator...what the hell, right?
Couple of things here, and this is repeat crap for many of you regulars, but I'll piss into the wind anyway just for fun. After all, we don't have to read these threads if we don't want to and blah blah blah, right?:

Debate is what these boards are for right? But I would advise not posting stuff from a pay site as a board Mod. It can only get this site in trouble (assuming the Pete Sampson article is from Rivals.)

1. Notre Dame had so many early verbals before they even played Pitt that this class was somewhat anti-climactic. It also didn't make for good stories for people like Rivals and Scout to sell subscriptions or generate interest. Recruits like Walls, Frazer, Morrice Richardson and Konrad Reuland were all downgraded before LOI day by Rivals....and strangely after they had verballed to Notre Dame. Raeshon McNeil was the only player upgraded on Rivals. Reuland, Walls and Carufel were all considered the best players in America at their positions at one point or another. The subject is open to debate and what Rivals/Scout/Lemming said is not written on stone tablets.
Oklahoma State and Ole Miss both took 29 recruits and they were ranked 22nd and 16th, respectively. Your strength in numbers argument isn't a very good one. Per the Rivals system, ND had 2 five star recruits and 10 four star, plus 14 three star and a 2 star kicker that weighed the average down some (Another reason Jigga hates kickers).
Ole Miss broke down on the 5-4-3 scale at 2-7-15 and OSU was 0-6-18. Texas Tech? They took 34 players. Their breakdown was 0-4-22.

The Strength in numbers isn't ONLY numbers but quality too, if you have all quantity and no quality then you won't rank high.

In 2002 and 2003 the quality was comparable to the quality in this class, just due to scholarship restrictions the quantity wasn't there.

2. The article above should make a few things clearer about these star rankings. Go further back on the 2002, 2003 and even 2004 Rivals rankings and see where some of these guys are now. You won't recognize the names because many haven't seen the field for various reasons. Then look at what players at schools like Virginia Tech, Utah and West Virginia have done with their careers, just to name a few.
Rob Parris, Kallen Wade, Sergio Brown, Toryan Smith and Luke Schmidt will all be stars at Notre Dame because they fit the system quite well. And because of depth issues, they'll see the field early and log lots of minutes over four years, thus gaining a great deal of experience which will add to their value and production. All those guys are "three star" players. Now guys like Walls, Frazer, Reuland...they could be busts and the three star guys no one wanted could end up studs. We just don't know yet.

I agree we don't know yet, but it goes both ways. We don't know how good or bad these guys are going to be, we can't call the class good or bad if using that train of thought.

To me, Rivals, scout etc are right more often than they are wrong and we won't really know how good the classes will be for another 4 years.

but since its the off season...

3. Again, Notre Dame had Gerald McCoy all but signed but because the stork will be visiting him soon, he will have to stay close to home at OU in Norman. Certain accomodations could not be made at ND due to his situation, so he decided to go to school 30 minutes from his home so he could take care of his responsiblities in such said matter. That is neither here nor there, but it does support the statement made by BigIrish.

and at least one player of his talent wanted to come to ND early and couldn't in the past under Willingham

Every class has top guys that couldn't come for what ever reason.

4. When you say 0-2 against the top 25, I am assuming that is the FINAL poll you are referring to? Because Weis beat some ranked teams when he coached against them, so again a rather debatable argument.

I don't know how debatable it is, pre-season rankings are where people think the team is going to be, Post season rankings are where the team ended up.

When ND beat Michigan they were ranked #3 does anyone think that was a top 5 caliber team?

The best example IMO is when Bama started the year #3 and went 3-8, now the teams that beat them as they slowly fell out of the top 25...can you really say there were beating top 25 teams...

Also if a team is unranked when you beat them in the first game, and they go on to finish in the top 10...did you beat a bad or average team or did you beat a very good team that was overlooked in the pre-season

Again, a guilty pleasure. I typically like to talk about things in the now or future that haven't happened yet. 2005 is over. Spring ball is coming up, junior offers are starting to mount and there are three pretty good freshmen on campus already getting their feet wet as early enrollees.
Charlie Weis has had 12 games as a collegiate head coach. It is in our nature, as a society that gets everything instantly, to want to predict and jump ahead. Reserve judgement until a few years down the road. We'll know by then how great he is.

The whole point of this thread was that I'm reserving judgement until a few years down the road and that just one decent year isn't going to make me call him "great"

As for your desire to talk about the future, start a thread and people will talk about the future.

 

[guff]

Did you just suggest to Jigga that he "start a thread" - the guy has over 4200 posts on this board and has started more threads than any of us.

It's great to see new people posting and even better to see some debate going on in the dead month of February. You started a good thread even if you are wrong. But suggesting that a guy with 4200 post start a thread is silly.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Did you just suggest to Jigga that he "start a thread" - the guy has over 4200 posts on this board and has started more threads than any of us.

It's great to see new people posting and even better to see some debate going on in the dead month of February. You started a good thread even if you are wrong. But suggesting that a guy with 4200 post start a thread is silly.

He can do what ever he wants, I simply said if he wishes to talk about next year, no need to bring that up in this thread but to start a new one...

as for this thread being WRONG...I didn't know I could be WRONG on not being sold on Weis's greatness and discussing others views on it.

 

[scooper]

Did you just suggest to Jigga that he "start a thread" - the guy has over 4200 posts on this board and has started more threads than any of us.

It's great to see new people posting and even better to see some debate going on in the dead month of February. You started a good thread even if you are wrong. But suggesting that a guy with 4200 post start a thread is silly.

Let me repeat:

 

[jiggafini19]

In 2002 and 2003 the quality was comparable to the quality in this class, just due to scholarship restrictions the quantity wasn't there.

2002- (Last Davie Class) 18 commitments, 3.56 star avg

2003- 21 commitments, 3.33 avg.

2006- 27 (Not counting Yeatman), 3.48 avg

02 and 06 are pretty close, but 03 is a bit behind.

2004- 16 commitments, 2.75 avg (MAC, WAC, CUSA numbers)

2005- 15 commitments, 3.00 avg (Coaching transition)

This is per Rivals.com.

I think where Weis may have achieved "greatness" (thus far) was his ability to have half of the class verballed before the season even started. And the reason he didn't have scholarship limitations is because the guy before him couldn't recruit quality or quantity worth a squirt of Huskie piss anyway. Don't forget, guys like Terrance Austin, Lou Eliades and Butch Lewis were told THE BOAT WAS FULL. According to these numbers, Davie's last class would appear to have more quality than that of Weis' first. But Willingham's first pulls in the bronze and the quality only seemed to drop, as did quantity. Even if he had stuck around (barf), would the Lawrence Wilsons, David Nelsons and Dan Doerings have come to Notre Dame?

Here's my thought: Florida had a coaching switch and David Nelson went there instead of Notre Dame. Coaching transition argument eliminated there. Dan Doering was probably going to Iowa all along and Oklahoma was probably his real second choice, not ND. Lawrence Wilson? Again, a slight nod to Ohio State, although it appeared as though ND had him all but locked up. Dace Richardson never gave Weis a shot. As soon as Willingham was fired, he dropped ND off of his list within two days.

2-2. The coaching situation was a 50-50 crapshoot. I don't remember anyone other than Dace Richardson saying "Yes, I am not going to Notre Dame because Coach TW is no longer there."

Examine Weis' first class: McNeil, Jones, Webb, Ryan, Schmidt, Aldridge, Wade, Mullen, Frazer, Gallup and Prince were all verballed before September of 2005. It began with Prince in APRIL of 2005.

Ty's first class: Ndukewe, Borseti, Brockington, Samardzija and Quinn all before September. That started in July with Ndukewe.

Quantity, Weis. Quality, Weis.

So far, in his first season, a lot of pro active recruiting, tremendous offense and losses that were not humiliating have given fans excitement and the press something to write about. Now, the funny part about all this (one of many things, anyway) is that CHARLIE WEIS himself will be the first person on this Earth to tell you all his has accomplished is 9-3 and to him that is a pile of dogsh*t. And what is even funnier is that over a year ago when all of this went down, I thought Willingham got a raw deal. Then the facts came out about what an arrogant assbag he was, walking around with a sense of entitlement refusing to make staffing changes and acting pompously stand-offish towards his employer (and a lot of other people). Genius move. Don't bite the corporate hand. Rule #1, whether you're black or white, male or female.

Those that carry this cross for Tyrone seem to almost want this team to fail so that you can be right and the University can look like jagwads (again). That might not be the case, but that's how you come across. You spin the success of Weis (Ty's players) and hammer the failures (3 losses). Enjoy the victories, be happy for the players. They're good kids. Be upset about the losses, 31 points or 3, regardless of who the coach is. Losing sucks. The sweatshirts say NOTRE DAME, not Charlie Weis or Tyrone Willingham. Notre Dame is constant, unwavering. Coaches change over the years, but the one thing remains the same: Our Lady. The Dome. Touchdown Jesus.

Support the f*cking team and stop poking and prodding for every last goddamn weakness and shortcoming, waiting for the bottom to fall out (again) so you can say "I told you so." Because that is what you all sound like. Notre Dame fans have a fickle rep as it is.

 

[jiggafini19]

As for your desire to talk about the future, start a thread and people will talk about the future.

Anytime you want to continue our discussion on the 2006 depth chart, spring ball and the next recruiting class I'm all ears.

I'm as objective as anyone out here, but if every discussion becomes a Ty-Charlie debate, I'm out. It's beyond old.

 

[jiggafini19]

Notre Dame Fighting Irish
Is Charlie Weis overrated?
02/21/06

Charlie Weis became head coach of the Notre Dame Fighting Irish football program last year amidst much fanfare. This was largely due to the fact that in 15 years as an assistant coach in the NFL, Weis had been part of four Super Bowl championships and had helped develop the careers of such superstars as Tom Brady, Deion Branch, Keyshawn Johnson, and Curtis Martin. When the '78 ND grad agreed to return to his alma mater, Irish players, fans, and alumni could only hope that he would bring the same kind of success to South Bend.

They didn't have to wait long for Weis to deliver results. A convincing 42-21 victory over #23 Pitt in the season opener followed a week later by a 17-10 triumph against bitter-rival Michigan (then ranked #3) had the Irish faithful talking about possible bowl bids way back in September. After Notre Dame cruised to a win against #22 Purdue a couple of weeks later, many sports analysts picked the Irish to upset #1 USC in their October 15 meeting. Even though the Trojans were able to escape South Bend with their perfect record intact thanks to a last-second touchdown, Weis' status as Notre Dame's newest savior was sealed.

At the same time, however, Weis' critics started becoming more and more vocal, especially when the university gave the coach a 10-year contract extension less than two months into the season. Comparisons to predecessor Ty Willingham inevitably arose, and the attacks began. Willingham got off to an 8-0 start in his first season at Notre Dame; Weis was 7-2. Weis was winning with players that Willingham helped recruit (including Brady Quinn) or develop. The combined record of the seven teams Notre Dame had beaten at that point was a sub-par 17-24. In other words, Weis was overrated.

Weis' supporters point to the fact that Quinn never got going in Willingham's offense. In 2004 under Willingham, Quinn threw for 2586 yards and 17 touchdowns. In 2005 with Weis, Quinn threw for an incredible 3919 yards and 32 touchdowns, putting him at number three in the nation in both categories. The critics countered that this could be due as much to the natural course of Quinn's development and maturity as an upperclassman than anything special that Weis did. They pointed to a similar jump in statistical output from Texas' Vince Young, who threw for 1849 yards and 12 touchdowns in '04 as a sophomore, then came back and threw for 3036 yards and 26 touchdowns in '05 as a junior.

So what's the correct assessment of Weis? Well, just as it's not fair to credit the new coach with every single statistical improvement shown by the team and players, it's not fair to deny him the credit by passing those improvements off as the expected consequences of player maturity.

In addition, the total measure of a coach's value to the team is not to be found in records and stats alone. Coaches bring a certain amount of "intangibles" to the table, just as players do. In Weis' case, it's the intangibles that separate him from his colleagues and make him deserving of all the accolades he has received. Weis has had the respect of his players from Day One, and that's not something that every coach can lay claim to. It's because of Weis that Quinn will return to the Notre Dame Fighting Irish for his senior season, thereby giving the Irish a realistic shot at the National Championship. It's because of Weis that 10 of the top 150 high school prospects in the country will be playing ball at Notre Dame next season. It's because of Weis that the Notre Dame football program will be in the national spotlight for the entire 2006 season.

Taking all of this into consideration, it seems that the use of the term "overrated" is not justified in Weis' case.

 

[jiggafini19]

Brady will weep when he gets his FAT signing bonus check in another year.

Weep.