Any reservations on the "Greatness" of Charlie Weis

[Fighting_Irish9]

Am I the only ND fan who is happy Weis is our coach but not overly excited about last season.

We had a Veteran Offensive Line
We had a Pro-Style QB in his 3rd year of starting
Our RB was no longer a true Freshman
And amongst other things, this past schedule was among the easiest we have faced in 2 decades.

I think Weis is an amazing offensive cordinator and I'm a big fan of the improvement in the play calling AND more importantly the addition of the hitch. I'm just not overly excited with the results since we did lose to a sub .500 team and beat no one that finished int the top 25 for like the first time in 5 or 6 years

I'm not blaming the schedule on Weis, I just find it difficult to get to excited since it was a subpar schedule

I know the posters on the ESPN board HATE this idea, was curious what you guys think

 

[jiggafini19]

It was only year one. Time will tell.

So far, his first season as coach and recruiter have yielded results beyond my expectations. We'll see if he can keep it going.

There are all valid points, but after years of misery I think everyone is looking on the bright side of things.

Personally, I'd like to see a defensive unit that will go out and melt people's faces off.

 

[Aerosmith777]

Am I the only ND fan who is happy Weis is our coach but not overly excited about last season.
We had a Veteran Offensive Line
We had a Pro-Style QB in his 3rd year of starting
Our RB was no longer a true Freshman
And amongst other things, this past schedule was among the easiest we have faced in 2 decades.
I think Weis is an amazing offensive cordinator and I'm a big fan of the improvement in the play calling AND more importantly the addition of the hitch. I'm just not overly excited with the results since we did lose to a sub .500 team and beat no one that finished int the top 25 for like the first time in 5 or 6 years
I'm not blaming the schedule on Weis, I just find it difficult to get to excited since it was a subpar schedule
I know the posters on the ESPN board HATE this idea, was curious what you guys think

I think the schedule was tougher than people give it credit for. Sagarin had ND's schedule ranked 14th, and I've always trusted Sagarin's ratings A LOT more than the one's given out by the AP and Sportsline. Granted that's still not up to snuff for a normal ND schedule, but it's not as weak as Mark May would have you believe.

As far as all the veteran players go, that's just college football. Most players don't develop into stars until their 3rd and 4th years. You tell me the coach that can win a NC w/ a bunch of true freshman and sophomores on offense? Winning w/ underexperienced guy is not the benchmark used to define good coaches, its what they do w/ the experienced guys once they get them. There are plenty of coaches that went into last season w/ veteran squads that did jack all year ahem: Joe Tiller, I'm talking to you). That's why Weis shows so much promise to me, he's already shown, & in an incredibly short amount of time, that he has a great ability to develop players. Hate to bring it up, but do you honestly think the offense would have been that good last year if Willingham were still around?

In short, I think its ok to let our expectations for next year soar a little right now.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

I think the schedule was tougher than people give it credit for. Sagarin had ND's schedule ranked 14th, and I've always trusted Sagarin's ratings A LOT more than the one's given out by the AP and Sportsline. Granted that's still not up to snuff for a normal ND schedule, but it's not as weak as Mark May would have you believe.

Mark May is an entertainer, I really don't care what he says, I would love to see how Sargin ranks schedules cause only playing 2 top 25 teams all year, and only 4 with winning records..

Being a ND fan that screams mediocre schedule to me, maybe the rest of the nation is used to mediocre schedules

As far as all the veteran players go, that's just college football. Most players don't develop into stars until their 3rd and 4th years. You tell me the coach that can win a NC w/ a bunch of true freshman and sophomores on offense? Winning w/ underexperienced guy is not the benchmark used to define good coaches, its what they do w/ the experienced guys once they get them.

This is why I have the very unpopular stance that IMO Willlingham should have gotten a 4th season. He had an offense full of inexperienced players he brought in to put together a pro-style offense.


There are plenty of coaches that went into last season w/ veteran squads that did jack all year ahem: Joe Tiller, I'm talking to you). That's why Weis shows so much promise to me, he's already shown, & in an incredibly short amount of time, that he has a great ability to develop players. Hate to bring it up, but do you honestly think the offense would have been that good last year if Willingham were still around?

First I agree, just because you are experienced alone, isn't going to give you wins

As for Willingham, I don't think we would have put up the offensive numbers, Comparing Bill Diedrick's play calling To Charlie Weis's just isn't fair...

But I do believe we would have gone 9-3. I think the offense would have borken out under Willingham but not as much as it would brining in the NFL's top Play caller.

As for developing players...I don't know how much credit I can give Weis for developement when he only had them for 2 months before the games started.
I think the talent was always there, just a shacky Soph QB, with a young line and a subpar play caller didn't put up great numbers

 

[Aerosmith777]

Mark May is an entertainer, I really don't care what he says, I would love to see how Sargin ranks schedules cause only playing 2 top 25 teams all year, and only 4 with winning records..
Being a ND fan that screams mediocre schedule to me, maybe the rest of the nation is used to mediocre schedules

I was only using May as the icon for all such "analysts" who blew their top about ND's schedule.

And what differentiates Sagarin's ranking from everyone else is he doesn't use a simply oppenents win/loss record, he goes further and uses the win/loss records of opponents' opponents. So for example, in the normal straight out opponent's win/loss record only format, a 9-3 Nevada would count the same against the SOS of a team as 9-3 Auburn. You can't tell me that beating Nevada is as much of an accomplishment as beating Auburn. Sagarin's ranking would take both 9-3 records into account, but then they would also take the records of all Auburn & Nevada's oppenents into account, and once you do that Auburn counts considerably more against the SOS of all the teams that schedule Auburn than Nevada does. That's why I like Sagarin's ratings, you can't schedule a 6-5 1-AA team and claim (as Oregon did last year) that its the same as scheduling a 6-5 team from the SEC or the Big X or any of the other power conferences.

This is why I have the very unpopular stance that IMO Willlingham should have gotten a 4th season. He had an offense full of inexperienced players he brought in to put together a pro-style offense.

First I agree, just because you are experienced alone, isn't going to give you winsAs for Willingham, I don't think we would have put up the offensive numbers, Comparing Bill Diedrick's play calling To Charlie Weis's just isn't fair...
But I do believe we would have gone 9-3. I think the offense would have borken out under Willingham but not as much as it would brining in the NFL's top Play caller.

I completely disagree, I think ND would've lost a minimum of two more games last year if Willingham had been the coach. Michigan and Stanford would both not have been "W's," Willingham's teams never showed resiliency in close games like those two. Not to mention that the USC game would not have been that close under Willingham, it would've been another 31-point blowout. And Willingham did have experienced players when he got to Notre Dame, so why didn't have have the same effect on them that Weis did on Quinn & co.? And if you say its b/c of the offense that was there before Willingham got there, true Holliday was not suited to a west coast offense, but he had recievers who were at least, and he had at least 2 QB's in the system that were better suited to run that offense than Holliday, but 1 he turned in to a tight end, and the other trasferred in large part b/c he was given the indication that he had no chance of winning his starting job back ever again.

As for developing players...I don't know how much credit I can give Weis for developement when he only had them for 2 months before the games started.I think the talent was always there, just a shacky Soph QB, with a young line and a subpar play caller didn't put up great numbers

But that's the point. The talent was there, but the potential hadn't been reached. that's what developing players is, getting them to reach their potential. Quinn took a huge step forward this year, and I really give most if not all of the credit to Weis b/c its not just that he didn't do that under Willingham, he didn't even show signs that he was capable of doing that under Ty. By the end of Brady's sophomore year, most people (including scouts) never thought he was gonna mature into anything more than a 3rd round pick at best. Now he's a sure-fire 1st rounder, and maybe 1st overall next season. That's coaching at its best.

 

[scooper]

Weis had the players for two months? Yes, but those months were the month of spring practice and the month of summer practice. And his training staff had them the rest of the year. No coach gets them for more time than that any year.

Experience was important, but it was more than just experience. If it were experience alone, every team would get better every four years. That simply doesn't happen.

Sure, the schedule was easier than thought preseason, but most of our wins were never in question, and overall the record improved by three games. The point differential improved by about 140 points.

To me, the improvement showed in ways that can't simply be measured by records, points or strength of schedule. The one that showed the most was fight. Over the last three years, when the team got down, it was over. You don't have more 30 point losses than the entire history of the program and more 20 point losses than Davie and Faust combined if your team continues to fight.

This team never rolled over and died. They traded USC punch for punch and basically ran out of time. Against MSU, some mistakes put them down 21 points but they fought back. Sure they lost, but the last three teams, when down by 21 late in the third quarter would have probably lost by 30+. Even Ohio St, a superior team talent-wise, couldn't really pull away until the very end.

This team executed better than the last three teams, at least on offense. Speaking of the offense, I saw more variety and adjustment to the defense than at any point the last three years. That's not experience. That's coaching. To me, the antithesis of this came in the BYU loss in 04, when the offense never switched up to counter the attacking 3-3-5 the Cougs were throwing.

Intangibles such as confidence, intensity, leadership, football IQ and swagger can't be measured, but they can be seen when they are present. Sometimes football fans get too caught up in stats to make their case, when all you really have to do is look at the product.

Of course Weis and his staff have a lot to prove. Especially on the defensive side of the ball. And there is some building to be done, the Fiesta Bowl made this clear. But I am extremely confident for the first time in years that the right people are in charge to get this done.

 

[irish4life99]

HAHAHA, this is hilarious. I know this person who calls themselves Fighting_Irish9. He is infamous on the ESPN boards for causing trouble. He has an obsession with Ty Willingham and will constantly bring up the comparisons. He will debate you to no end on how the improvement of this football team has nothing to do with the current coaching staff. He even said that Stovall really didn't improve that much this year. Some of it may sound logical now, but wait and see. He is a ND fan, but a strange one at that. Sorry to call you out FI9.

 

[scooper]

That's kind of what I figured. Thanks for the heads up. I'll ignore him from now on.

 

[guff]

As for developing players...I don't know how much credit I can give Weis for developement when he only had them for 2 months before the games started.

I know how much credit to give him...
Brady Quinn Stat lines
2004
Games Rating Att-Comp-Int Comp% Yds TD Yds/Game
12 125.87 353-191-10 54.1 2586 17 215.5
2005
Games Rating Att-Comp-Int Comp% Yds TD Yds/Game
12 158.40 450-292-7 64.9 3919 32 326.6

...a $h!tload.

 

[Gizmo]

HAHAHA, this is hilarious. I know this person who calls themselves Fighting_Irish9. He is infamous on the ESPN boards for causing trouble. He has an obsession with Ty Willingham and will constantly bring up the comparisons. He will debate you to no end on how the improvement of this football team has nothing to do with the current coaching staff. He even said that Stovall really didn't improve that much this year. Some of it may sound logical now, but wait and see. He is a ND fan, but a strange one at that. Sorry to call you out FI9.

Way to connect the dots. I would have never caught that.

I used to talk ND football with my friends all the time, but since I moved back to FL I had to turn to the internet to get my ND football fix. For about a week or so I checked out the ESPN board until I realized that it was a complete waste of my time. Worst. . . board. . . ever. But in that short week I definately remember this guy, and your description could not be more accurate. I'll stop now because he LOVES to refute posts sentence by sentence. I'll be interested to see how long his brand of "entertainment" amuses me. My guess is not long.

 

[irish4life99]

I don't knock FI9's knowlege of Irish football, but he drives people nuts with these Ty/Weis comparisons. I think he'll be a great contributor in about 10 years when he gets over the loss of Ty.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

I was only using May as the icon for all such "analysts" who blew their top about ND's schedule.
And what differentiates Sagarin's ranking from everyone else is he doesn't use a simply oppenents win/loss record, he goes further and uses the win/loss records of opponents' opponents. So for example, in the normal straight out opponent's win/loss record only format, a 9-3 Nevada would count the same against the SOS of a team as 9-3 Auburn. You can't tell me that beating Nevada is as much of an accomplishment as beating Auburn. Sagarin's ranking would take both 9-3 records into account, but then they would also take the records of all Auburn & Nevada's oppenents into account, and once you do that Auburn counts considerably more against the SOS of all the teams that schedule Auburn than Nevada does. That's why I like Sagarin's ratings, you can't schedule a 6-5 1-AA team and claim (as Oregon did last year) that its the same as scheduling a 6-5 team from the SEC or the Big X or any of the other power conferences.

I know that is how the BCS used to calculate their SOS, are you sure Sargin does it that way, I was always under the impretion that he kept all his methods secret.

If you have a link that shows that is how sargin does it, I would appreciate it, I haven't been able to come across an explanation for any of his rankings

Also I'm not sure any of the SOS systems are as simplistic as basic Opponents WL records

I completely disagree, I think ND would've lost a minimum of two more games last year if Willingham had been the coach. Michigan and Stanford would both not have been "W's," Willingham's teams never showed resiliency in close games like those two. Not to mention that the USC game would not have been that close under Willingham, it would've been another 31-point blowout.

I'm not sure what you are basing that on...ND was 2-1 against GOOD Michigan teams and this was an average at best Michigan team. As for Stanford, ND Never came that close to losing to Stanford with Willingham as the coach and even blew them out by 45+ points the last time we played there.

I do however agree the USC game would not have been close, I don't think it would have been as bad as the last two years but we would have lost by more points I'm sure..

Under Willingham we lost some close ones and won some close ones

And Willingham did have experienced players when he got to Notre Dame, so why didn't have have the same effect on them that Weis did on Quinn & co.? And if you say its b/c of the offense that was there before Willingham got there, true Holliday was not suited to a west coast offense, but he had recievers who were at least, and he had at least 2 QB's in the system that were better suited to run that offense than Holliday, but 1 he turned in to a tight end, and the other trasferred in large part b/c he was given the indication that he had no chance of winning his starting job back ever again..

Yes his first year he had a veteran team that won 10 games, beating 4 top 25 teams and what? 8 teams with winning records. Sure the offense wasn't explosive, it didn't need to be and we didn't have the players for an explosive offense. What Grand WR's did he have?

As for the 2 QB's that transferred, how good could they have been, have you heard of them since...Did LaVechio light it up at IU? Did the ever have a winning season with him at the helm? Olsen at Virginia, has he even seen the field?

Besides, LoVechio transfered when Willingham wouldn't give him the starting job before summer ball started so he wasn't really an option, and Olsen transfered after Brady Quinn was recruited.

But that's the point. The talent was there, but the potential hadn't been reached. that's what developing players is, getting them to reach their potential. Quinn took a huge step forward this year, and I really give most if not all of the credit to Weis b/c its not just that he didn't do that under Willingham, he didn't even show signs that he was capable of doing that under Ty. By the end of Brady's sophomore year, most people (including scouts) never thought he was gonna mature into anything more than a 3rd round pick at best. Now he's a sure-fire 1st rounder, and maybe 1st overall next season. That's coaching at its best.

I don't think we can really tell how Willingham did with Grooming talent since he was only here 3 years, Most players do not "break out" until their Jr years...

As for Quinn, I disagree completely as far as you saying he didn't improve, just look at his numbers there was definate improvement

47.3% to 54.1% completion ratio
15 Int's in 332 Att to 9 INT's in 353 Att
9 TD's in 332 Att to 17 TD's in 352 Att
153 Yd Pg to 216 Yds PG (and a vastly improved running game his Soph year)


None of this is to Say I think Willingham was a good or great coach, I'm just saying I think some go over the top with their Praise of Weis

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Weis had the players for two months? Yes, but those months were the month of spring practice and the month of summer practice. And his training staff had them the rest of the year. No coach gets them for more time than that any year.
Experience was important, but it was more than just experience. If it were experience alone, every team would get better every four years. That simply doesn't happen. .

Teams don't get better every 4 years because most teams don't start as many people as ND did as underclassman in 2003. We were only missing what? 2 or 3 offensive starters from the 2003 squad

That means they started in 2003, 2004, and 2005, and don't forget we have what 9 offensive starters returning next year

This was a very young offense in 2003 and 2004 and they played against a much stiffer competition

Sure, the schedule was easier than thought preseason, but most of our wins were never in question, and overall the record improved by three games. The point differential improved by about 140 points.

I do agree the points and Yards are going to be impressive with Weis, I think that should be expected from one of the top play callers in the NFL...I don't take any "issue" (for lack of a better word) with praise for his play calling, just the He "developed" the talent statements.

To me, the improvement showed in ways that can't simply be measured by records, points or strength of schedule. The one that showed the most was fight. Over the last three years, when the team got down, it was over. You don't have more 30 point losses than the entire history of the program and more 20 point losses than Davie and Faust combined if your team continues to fight.
This team never rolled over and died. They traded USC punch for punch and basically ran out of time. Against MSU, some mistakes put them down 21 points but they fought back. Sure they lost, but the last three teams, when down by 21 late in the third quarter would have probably lost by 30+. Even Ohio St, a superior team talent-wise, couldn't really pull away until the very end.
This team executed better than the last three teams, at least on offense. .

Yes the team appeared more "up" but they did in 2002 also, Winning alone will make a team look confident...see 2002...

as for the execution, you don't think having a Jr QB and experienced Line had anything to do with better execution? How many freshman QB's with inexperienced lines run an offense that executes well?

Speaking of the offense, I saw more variety and adjustment to the defense than at any point the last three years. That's not experience. That's coaching. To me, the antithesis of this came in the BYU loss in 04, when the offense never switched up to counter the attacking 3-3-5 the Cougs were throwing.
Intangibles such as confidence, intensity, leadership, football IQ and swagger can't be measured, but they can be seen when they are present. Sometimes football fans get too caught up in stats to make their case, when all you really have to do is look at the product.
Of course Weis and his staff have a lot to prove. Especially on the defensive side of the ball. And there is some building to be done, the Fiesta Bowl made this clear. But I am extremely confident for the first time in years that the right people are in charge to get this done.

Again I have no "issue" with the offensive play calling and will gladly say he did a great job there, the guy is an amazing offensive cordinator. But I will say this...

1 the defense never adjusted all year...like the 2 years prior, all you had to do to complete a long ball against us was to call it in the huddle.

Charlie Weis is our head coach, not just our offensive cordinator.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

I know how much credit to give him...
Brady Quinn Stat lines
2004
Games Rating Att-Comp-Int Comp% Yds TD Yds/Game
12 125.87 353-191-10 54.1 2586 17 215.5
2005
Games Rating Att-Comp-Int Comp% Yds TD Yds/Game
12 158.40 450-292-7 64.9 3919 32 326.6
...a $h!tload.

Don't forget to compare it to Quinn's progression from his Freshman to Sophomore year...

Sure the jump in his Jr year was more, but that should be expected, especially with the NFL's top offensive cordinator taking the job.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Irish4life99 - HAHAHA, this is hilarious. I know this person who calls themselves Fighting_Irish9. He is infamous on the ESPN boards for causing trouble. He has an obsession with Ty Willingham and will constantly bring up the comparisons. He will debate you to no end on how the improvement of this football team has nothing to do with the current coaching staff. He even said that Stovall really didn't improve that much this year. Some of it may sound logical now, but wait and see. He is a ND fan, but a strange one at that. Sorry to call you out FI9.

Way to contribute to the thread. You will notice as with the ESPN board, I did not bring up Willingham now will I on this board. But I do not hate Willingham as much as others and will respond to their comments about him.

If you don't wish to discuss him don't bring him up. But alas as with this post you are more worried about playing games than actually discussing Notre Dame Athletics.

I don't knock FI9's knowlege of Irish football, but he drives people nuts with these Ty/Weis comparisons. I think he'll be a great contributor in about 10 years when he gets over the loss of Ty.

Two posts on the thread, nothing to do with the topic at hand...

Why? If you don't like a thread, don't post on it. If you don't like a poster ignore them

Anyway carry on...Hopefully we can get back on topic and you are done

 

[irish4life99]

Way to contribute to the thread. You will notice as with the ESPN board, I did not bring up Willingham now will I on this board. But I do not hate Willingham as much as others and will respond to their comments about him.
If you don't wish to discuss him don't bring him up. But alas as with this post you are more worried about playing games than actually discussing Notre Dame Athletics.
Two posts on the thread, nothing to do with the topic at hand...
Why? If you don't like a thread, don't post on it. If you don't like a poster ignore them
Anyway carry on...Hopefully we can get back on topic and you are done

I'm sick of debating this issue with you. EVERYONE, but you, understands that Ty was not a good coach or recruiter. He's gone, let it go! I'm just letting others know what to expect from you, and not to get wrapped up in your childish games. I'm Out on this topic so no need to reply sentance by sentance.

 

[NWLB]

I think you take the good with the bad. You got more out of the Irish last year than would have otherwise been the case. You could have gotten even more out of them, but maybe luck grows back more slowly than recruiting.

In all, I don't see any reason to doubt great things will happen next year. The scalpers must be happier than they have been in years!

 

[jiggafini19]

How you uh, how you comin' on that novel you're working on? Huh? Gotta a big, uh, big stack of papers there? Gotta, gotta nice litte story you're working on there? Your big novel you've been working on for 3 years? Huh? Gotta, gotta compelling protaganist? Yeah? Gotta obstacle for him to overcome? Huh? Gotta story brewing there? Working on, working on that for quite some time? Huh? (voice getting higher pitched) Yea, talking about that 3 years ago. Been working on that the whole time? Nice little narrative? Beginning, middle, and end? Some friends become enemies, some enemies become friends? At the end your main character is richer from the experience? Yeah? Yeah? (voice returns to normal) No, no, you deserve some time off.

 

[Gizmo]

Cue Brian hitting Stewie with book.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

I think you take the good with the bad. You got more out of the Irish last year than would have otherwise been the case. You could have gotten even more out of them, but maybe luck grows back more slowly than recruiting.
In all, I don't see any reason to doubt great things will happen next year. The scalpers must be happier than they have been in years!

Oh I expect next yeat to be an improvement over this year no doubt. To me the first test of Weis will be in 2007 when he is starting an underclassman QB, with a Young and inexperienced line, against what will probably be more of a typical ND schedule.

Next year he will have a 4 Year starting Sr QB with a Oline full of 4th and 5th year seniors, along with 2 Senior WR's and a Jr RB in his 3rd year as a starter...

The Defense returns 9 starters....I expect a run at the NC...probably a 11-2 10-3 record but with a few of the right bounces who knows..

 

[jiggafini19]

Oh I expect next yeat to be an improvement over this year no doubt. To me the first test of Weis will be in 2007 when he is starting an underclassman QB, with a Young and inexperienced line, against what will probably be more of a typical ND schedule.
Next year he will have a 4 Year starting Sr QB with a Oline full of 4th and 5th year seniors, along with 2 Senior WR's and a Jr RB in his 3rd year as a starter...
The Defense returns 9 starters....I expect a run at the NC...probably a 11-2 10-3 record but with a few of the right bounces who knows..

And we can say the same thing about Pete Carroll at USC this year, right? He'll have an unproven QB, two new running backs and a revamped offensive line. Only difference? He's got toys to play with.

The last two recruiting classes prior to this one have been God awful. Weis is going to need another 25 studs in 2007 to replenish the stocked cupboard that was given to him when he took this job, courtesy of the horrendous recruiting done previous to him. Yeah, 2007 will be a test because everyone will be sophomores...since there won't be any juniors or seniors on the damn team.

You know how many junior offensive linemen are on this team in 2006? NONE. Not a single one. There are 3 fifth year guards and three freshmen guards on this team.

No one has perspective anymore in sports. Welcome to the fast food/instant message/now now now society we live in. Me? I'll wait and see what happens, especially when this group of frosh are seniors and everyone in the program is a "Weis Guy" not recruited by previous regimes. Problem is, no one wants to wait that long.

This is all just pissing into the wind at this point, isn't it?

 

[Aerosmith777]

How you uh, how you comin' on that novel you're working on? Huh? Gotta a big, uh, big stack of papers there? Gotta, gotta nice litte story you're working on there? Your big novel you've been working on for 3 years? Huh? Gotta, gotta compelling protaganist? Yeah? Gotta obstacle for him to overcome? Huh? Gotta story brewing there? Working on, working on that for quite some time? Huh? (voice getting higher pitched) Yea, talking about that 3 years ago. Been working on that the whole time? Nice little narrative? Beginning, middle, and end? Some friends become enemies, some enemies become friends? At the end your main character is richer from the experience? Yeah? Yeah? (voice returns to normal) No, no, you deserve some time off.

If the site would let me give you rep points for that, I would.

 

[jiggafini19]

If the site would let me give you rep points for that, I would.

Oh I know it hurts now Aerosmith, but look at the bright side: you have some new material for that novel you've been writing. You know...the novel you've been workin' on? You know the the one, uh, you've been workin on for three years? You know the novel. Got somethin' new to write about now. You know? Maybe a, maybe a main character gets into a relationship and suffers a little heartbreak? Somethin' like what... what you've just been through? Draw from real life experience? Little, little heartbreak? You know? Work it into the story? Make the characters a little more three dimensional? Little, uh, richer experience for the reader? Make those second hundred pages really keep the reader guessing what's going to happen? Some twists and turns? A little epilogue? Everybody learns that the hero's journey isn't always a happy one? (Voice returns to normal.) Oh, I look forward to reading it.

 

[Aerosmith777]

I know that is how the BCS used to calculate their SOS, are you sure Sargin does it that way, I was always under the impretion that he kept all his methods secret.
If you have a link that shows that is how sargin does it, I would appreciate it, I haven't been able to come across an explanation for any of his rankings
Also I'm not sure any of the SOS systems are as simplistic as basic Opponents WL records

First of all, to the best of my knowledge the BCS doesn't count SOS as a category anymore, but it was Sagarin's ratings they used when they did have it as a category. Its not a simple win/loss record, no, but when you turn on the 4-letter network the combined win/loss record of opponents is all they talk about anymore. Sagarin uses a ton of factors, including win/loss of opponents and opponents' opponents, along w/ some other stuff. You're right that he does keep the exact nature of his ranking system a secret, especially about how he ranks teams overall (not SOS, but their acutal rankings 1-25 like the AP does) but he has let out a few of the more important factors he uses.

I'm not sure what you are basing that on...ND was 2-1 against GOOD Michigan teams and this was an average at best Michigan team. As for Stanford, ND Never came that close to losing to Stanford with Willingham as the coach and even blew them out by 45+ points the last time we played there.

Yes, but what was the result the last time ND played Michigan @ Michigan? I believe it was somewhere along the lines of 38-0. And to be honest, I don't think Michigan's been all that good in several years, they've just been kept afloat in the rankings by the fact that they're "Michigan" IMO. As for Stanford, first of all Ty never had to play Stanford in a game that would make or break his BCS chances & when Stanford was playing its final game in its home stadium & trying like hell to go out on top. And second of all, & far more importantly, he never had to coach against Stanford w/ Walt Harris coaching the Cardinal. He did coach against Walt Harris in a close game when Harris was at Pitt the year previous though, and I think you remember how that turned out.

I do however agree the USC game would not have been close, I don't think it would have been as bad as the last two years but we would have lost by more points I'm sure..
Under Willingham we lost some close ones and won some close ones
Yes his first year he had a veteran team that won 10 games, beating 4 top 25 teams and what? 8 teams with winning records. Sure the offense wasn't explosive, it didn't need to be and we didn't have the players for an explosive offense.

You're gonna have to give me the close game they won under Willingham that they weren't supposed to win anyway, cause I don't remember it. They won close ones against Navy, Air Force, Michigan State, Purdue, Washington State, & Tennessee. And every time it was a game they were supposed to win, except Tennesse, and even then, if Tennessee's top 2 QB's don't go out of that game, do you really think ND would've pulled it out? I don't.

And yes, I know Charlie lost to Michigan State this year, a team he should've beaten, but unlike w/ Willingham, I can look back at this season and see a whole lot more games ND won or were close in (USC) that they weren't supposed even be in than I see games like that.

What Grand WR's did he have?
As for the 2 QB's that transferred, how good could they have been, have you heard of them since...Did LaVechio light it up at IU? Did the ever have a winning season with him at the helm? Olsen at Virginia, has he even seen the field?
Besides, LoVechio transfered when Willingham wouldn't give him the starting job before summer ball started so he wasn't really an option, and Olsen transfered after Brady Quinn was recruited.
I don't think we can really tell how Willingham did with Grooming talent since he was only here 3 years, Most players do not "break out" until their Jr years...

You're gonna hold LoVechio's record at Indiana against him? Are you kidding me? My high school had a better football team than Indiana, and we only had an intramural program. And it was probly better coached to boot. Olsen I'm not really gonna make a stink about b/c I never thought he was that good to begin w/, but Willingham came in and had 3 QB's, 2 of which fit his system and 1 that didn't. Of the 2 that did, he turned 1 into a TE, and the other was given the cold shoulder right off the bat. Wouldn't you have transferred too if you felt you weren't even gonna get a look at for the starting job?

As far as recievers go, Rhema McKnight and Maurice Stovall were both there when he got there, not to mention Omar Jenkins and Arnaz Battle. All were pretty talented, and either never developed or weren't used properly in a vertical passing game when Willingham coached them

As for Quinn, I disagree completely as far as you saying he didn't improve, just look at his numbers there was definate improvement
47.3% to 54.1% completion ratio
15 Int's in 332 Att to 9 INT's in 353 Att
9 TD's in 332 Att to 17 TD's in 352 Att
153 Yd Pg to 216 Yds PG (and a vastly improved running game his Soph year)
None of this is to Say I think Willingham was a good or great coach, I'm just saying I think some go over the top with their Praise of Weis

Well, I would hope experience alone would allow for some improvement. But the improvement he showed under Ty compared to what he showed under Weis was like comparing a baby step to an olympic long jumper.

54.1% to 64.9% completion ratio
9 INT's in 353 Att to 7 INT's in 450 Att
17 TD's in 352 Att to 32 TD's in 450 Att
216 Yds PG to 356 Yds PG (and a vastly more improved running game his Jr year)

Fact is, he didn't improve enough under Willingham compared to Weis. you can't tell me he would've put up numbers like those in Willingham's confusing dink and dunk west coast offense. Charlie came in, he spread the ball around a lot more, actually incorporated a vertical passing game to take advantage of Brady's cannon for an arm (something Willingham never did for some reason) and the results speak for themselves.

But don't take my word for it, just look up that great quote Quinn's dad had in the paper somewhere in the middle of last season, "My son came home last year and said, 'Dad, I feel like I'm not even being coached.'"

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

And we can say the same thing about Pete Carroll at USC this year, right? He'll have an unproven QB, two new running backs and a revamped offensive line. Only difference? He's got toys to play with.
The last two recruiting classes prior to this one have been God awful. Weis is going to need another 25 studs in 2007 to replenish the stocked cupboard that was given to him when he took this job, courtesy of the horrendous recruiting done previous to him. Yeah, 2007 will be a test because everyone will be sophomores...since there won't be any juniors or seniors on the damn team.

Yes, Pete Carroll and USC have done something unprecidented since the limitations placed on scholarships. If Weis does this, then yes he will be in a special group.

Yes last years class was pretty Horrible but with a head coach that can't see players we lost a lot but I have a hard time saying Weis was left with a barecupboard. Weis was left with a DAMN good team that will be with him his first 2 years.

You know how many junior offensive linemen are on this team in 2006? NONE. Not a single one. There are 3 fifth year guards and three freshmen guards on this team.

No Doubt the transfer of the 2 Lineman that would be Jr's after the firing of Willingham did hurt, and the numbers were low. The firing of the coach in Decemeber and the hiring of a coach who couldn't get out on the recruiting trail really hurt us in last years class two when we needed to land 5 O-lineman

No one has perspective anymore in sports. Welcome to the fast food/instant message/now now now society we live in. Me? I'll wait and see what happens, especially when this group of frosh are seniors and everyone in the program is a "Weis Guy" not recruited by previous regimes. Problem is, no one wants to wait that long.
This is all just pissing into the wind at this point, isn't it?

I completely agree with this, I thought people didn't have the patience for the overhaul of the program Willingham was doing. I hope people give Weis more slack.

I'm just saying I felt the guy was left a damn good Veteran team and came across the easiest schedule in decades for Notre Dame so I'm not jumping the gun on calling him great.

I don't think you should judge any college coach until they have built their own veteran team.

 

[BigIrish]

the easiest schedule in decades? that might be pushing it.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

First of all, to the best of my knowledge the BCS doesn't count SOS as a category anymore, but it was Sagarin's ratings they used when they did have it as a category. Its not a simple win/loss record, no, but when you turn on the 4-letter network the combined win/loss record of opponents is all they talk about anymore. Sagarin uses a ton of factors, including win/loss of opponents and opponents' opponents, along w/ some other stuff. You're right that he does keep the exact nature of his ranking system a secret, especially about how he ranks teams overall (not SOS, but their acutal rankings 1-25 like the AP does) but he has let out a few of the more important factors he uses.

No the BCS doesn't have a seperate SOS anymore they took out their system because they felt the SOS in each computer system was enough.

As for their system being Sargins, I don't believe you are correct on this one, that SOS wasn't linked to anyone but the BCS. Sargin has his own SOS ranking system that is different from the BCS. If you look up Sargins past SOS's and the old BCS's SOS rankings you will see they don't match up.

Sargins SOS ranking system is a secret, you will notice out of all the different systems I believe Sargin was the ONLY one to put us in the top 30

Yes, but what was the result the last time ND played Michigan @ Michigan? I believe it was somewhere along the lines of 38-0. And to be honest, I don't think Michigan's been all that good in several years, they've just been kept afloat in the rankings by the fact that they're "Michigan" IMO. As for Stanford, first of all Ty never had to play Stanford in a game that would make or break his BCS chances & when Stanford was playing its final game in its home stadium & trying like hell to go out on top. And second of all, & far more importantly, he never had to coach against Stanford w/ Walt Harris coaching the Cardinal. He did coach against Walt Harris in a close game when Harris was at Pitt the year previous though, and I think you remember how that turned out.

Last time ND played Michigan @ Ann Arbor, Carlyle Holiday was the QB of a team with an Underclassman offensive line and the top WR on the team played QB for 3 years.

Also I completely disagree with your assesment of Michigan and them just being loved by the Polls...

2002 10-3 - ND beat them
2003 10-3 - ND lost
2004 9-3 - ND beat them
2005 7-5 - ND beat them

Michigan was ranked high because they were 9 and 10 win teams

As for Stanford? their last game at home?

This Walt Harris coached team lost to D1AA UC-DAVIS......Though I believe this is as irrelevent as the last time ND played @ Michigan, the last time ND played @Stanford we won 57-7

You're gonna have to give me the close game they won under Willingham that they weren't supposed to win anyway, cause I don't remember it. They won close ones against Navy, Air Force, Michigan State, Purdue, Washington State, & Tennessee. And every time it was a game they were supposed to win, except Tennesse, and even then, if Tennessee's top 2 QB's don't go out of that game, do you really think ND would've pulled it out? I don't.
And yes, I know Charlie lost to Michigan State this year, a team he should've beaten, but unlike w/ Willingham, I can look back at this season and see a whole lot more games ND won or were close in (USC) that they weren't supposed even be in than I see games like that.

Ty went 8-8 against the top 25 averaging almost 3 top 25 wins a year while at Notre Dame While Weis is 0-2...thus far I'd Say Ty did better in "big games" than Weis


#13 Maryland 22-0
#9 Michigan 25-22
#19 PItt 14-6
#21 FSU 34-24
#10 Washington State 29-26
#14 Michigan 28-20
#24 Navy 27-9
#13 Tennesse 17-13

Also ND lost some games we shouldn't have but we did that last year too

You're gonna hold LoVechio's record at Indiana against him? Are you kidding me? My high school had a better football team than Indiana, and we only had an intramural program. And it was probly better coached to boot. Olsen I'm not really gonna make a stink about b/c I never thought he was that good to begin w/, but Willingham came in and had 3 QB's, 2 of which fit his system and 1 that didn't. Of the 2 that did, he turned 1 into a TE, and the other was given the cold shoulder right off the bat. Wouldn't you have transferred too if you felt you weren't even gonna get a look at for the starting job?

I'm not going to hold his record against him but I'm not going to pretend he was anything special...do you see him in the NFL, do you see him in NFL Europe? Is he even playing Areana ball?

He didn't transfer because he didn't think he would be given a shot, he left because he wasn't given the starting job right off the bat. His dad made a big stink about this at the time. LoVechio was the starter the year before and wanted to be assured he would be the starter and Willingham said he would have to earn it.

The other guy was moved to TE because he wasn't a good QB his brother at GaTEch was, but he wasn't.

As far as recievers go, Rhema McKnight and Maurice Stovall were both there when he got there, not to mention Omar Jenkins and Arnaz Battle. All were pretty talented, and either never developed or weren't used properly in a vertical passing game when Willingham coached them
Well, I would hope experience alone would allow for some improvement. But the improvement he showed under Ty compared to what he showed under Weis was like comparing a baby step to an olympic long jumper.
54.1% to 64.9% completion ratio
9 INT's in 353 Att to 7 INT's in 450 Att
17 TD's in 352 Att to 32 TD's in 450 Att
216 Yds PG to 356 Yds PG (and a vastly more improved running game his Jr year)
Fact is, he didn't improve enough under Willingham compared to Weis. you can't tell me he would've put up numbers like those in Willingham's confusing dink and dunk west coast offense. Charlie came in, he spread the ball around a lot more, actually incorporated a vertical passing game to take advantage of Brady's cannon for an arm (something Willingham never did for some reason) and the results speak for themselves.
But don't take my word for it, just look up that great quote Quinn's dad had in the paper somewhere in the middle of last season, "My son came home last year and said, 'Dad, I feel like I'm not even being coached.'"

First off, Quinn was upset when Willingham was fired, second his dad didn't say that, his Uncle did. Sorry but I don't put much credence in a quote from an Uncle cause my guess is it was one bad day, Quinn was just spouting off and Its possible the uncle misintrpeted what he said...as Quinn has never made a comment like that publicly

As for the rest, yes Omar Jenkins was at ND...good but not great player. Arnaz Battle a great talent but was a QB converted to WR and was still learning hte position. Yes Willingham brought in McKnight and Stovall but as freshman they weren't going to be huge contributors

I agree and have said more than once in this thread that I don't think the "numbers" would have been there without the addition of Weis as the offensive cordinator.

But I don't think the level of play has stepped up that much because of Weis, I do agree the play calling did improve though, as for the Vertical passing game, Quinns Deep ball was horrible his freshman year, decent his Soph year and not all that great last year...His weakness has always been the accuracy of his deep ball.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

the easiest schedule in decades? that might be pushing it.

When was the last time we didn't beat a top 25 team?
When was the last time we only played 4 teams with winning records?
When was the last time we played 7 teams with losing records?
When was the last time we only played 2 teams with 9 or more wins?

Etc etc...

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/NotreDame.htm#2002

if it wasn't the worst in the last 2 decades it was one of the worst

 

[jiggafini19]

I have a hard time saying Weis was left with a barecupboard. Weis was left with a DAMN good team that will be with him his first 2 years.

Are you looking at the starters?

Look at the depth chart and roster, man!! HORRIBLE.

Mendoza's strength and conditioning program kept everyone healthy. I believe McKnight, Morton and Frome were the only guys to suffer major injuries last year. They'd better hope they all stay healthy again because there isn't a lot behind the starters....STILL.

27 guys in 2006 (plus Yeatman) and another 25 in 2007 is a necessity for a reason....the cupboard was bare. Even if the Freddie Parrish and John Kadous's of the world had stayed, not a lot there.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Are you looking at the starters?
Look at the depth chart and roster, man!! HORRIBLE.
Mendoza's strength and conditioning program kept everyone healthy. I believe McKnight, Morton and Frome were the only guys to suffer major injuries last year. They'd better hope they all stay healthy again because there isn't a lot behind the starters....STILL.
27 guys in 2006 (plus Yeatman) and another 25 in 2007 is a necessity for a reason....the cupboard was bare. Even if the Freddie Parrish and John Kadous's of the world had stayed, not a lot there.

Depth is definatly an issue, but last year is the biggest problem for depth, and that you can't blame on the past coaching staff...that has more to do with the mismangement of the situation by the Administration.

Weis said himself he does not plan on recruiting more than like 18 kids a year