[FanBlogs] Maybe Notre Dame was right to fire Ty

[PaperBoy]

After watching a pitiful Notre Dame performance in last night's Insight Bowl, I'm starting to believe that maybe the Irish were right in firing Ty Willingham. ND looked like a high school team compared to Oregon State. The Irish were much slower and less athletic...
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[bmf175]

Agreed good article and some good follow up posts (all of which have been said on this site)
Ty sucks and he needed to go. I will give him a complement though, when he did lose he looked "old school doing it" "he was a great looking loser" good enough to compare to the greatest coaches.

one disagreement would be on this years recruiting class, it will be better than average, even if weis is busy with the patriots.
and the program is getting better rather than worse.

 

[NDLyght37]

As always, we'll agree to disagree. If he "sucked", he wouldn't have led Stanford to a Rose Bowl. If he "sucked", he wouldn't have gone 10-2 in his first year in South Bend. If he "sucked" we wouldn't have beaten Michigan or Tennessee this past season. if he "sucked" he wouldn't have engendered such loyalty from the team.

And as I've said before, he wasn't as good as people say...but he's certainly not as bad as people say. He was a solid coach and a great man, and that's about it.

 

[bmf175]

As always, we'll agree to disagree. If he "sucked", he wouldn't have led Stanford to a Rose Bowl. If he "sucked", he wouldn't have gone 10-2 in his first year in South Bend. If he "sucked" we wouldn't have beaten Michigan or Tennessee this past season. if he "sucked" he wouldn't have engendered such loyalty from the team.

And as I've said before, he wasn't as good as people say...but he's certainly not as bad as people say. He was a solid coach and a great man, and that's about it.

Now this post is intended for NDLyght, it is obvious we disagree on this subject. So if you are tired of reading about this topic simply go to another thread.


First off I hope you do not think that I have a personal problem with you. The only probloem we have is the disagreement of Ty Willingham. And I think everybody who has been a member of this site long enough knows or major arguement with eachother.

With that said doing good for one year is not grounds for being a good coach. A good coach is exactly that a good coach. The sun shines on a horses ass on somedays, making it to the Rose Bowl once and having a 10-2 season once and then turning around and going straight downward is not what a good coach does. Im sorry but your premises are not true.

The only one of the premises I will give you is the Rose Bowl. Due to the fact that I dont really care to do the research required to find fallacies in it.

Going 10-2 the first year and finishing under .500 is not what a good coach does so go ahead and throw that out. If you were to say he was a "good coach" that year I would believe you.

Beating Michigan was an up side for Ty's career at ND but lets not forget that he lost to them 38-0 the previous year. So go ahead and throw that out. Because he is not a better coach than Carr is. Now if he would have lost by a smaller margin I would show more pitty.

Beating Tennesse was a fluke. I love ND and was very happy they beat UT in Tennesse but how much of that can you attribute to Ty's coaching? If you want to give Ty credit for Mike Goolsby's athletic ability that makes one of us. Ty did not recruit him nor did he tell Goolsby were to be at the time of the interception. I credit Goolsby for that victory. The offense totally sucked in that game and UT had their 3rd string QB in.

Tys official title at ND was "Head Football Coach" by virtue a head football coach is one that coaches, the virtue of a thing or being is what constitutes its value, so by that LOGIC, a good knife cuts well, a good gun shoots well, AND a "good footbal coach" coaches well and wins constantly.
So by virtue he was not a "good Coach" sorry but thats how it works.


When it comes down to it you support Ty because you think he is a good man, GREAT. Im not denying that. Im saying Ty was not a good coach. Now if Ty decides he wants to come over and have a beer I will not stop him but if he wants to coach my local high school football team than i would have to stop him.

 

[NDLyght37]

First off I hope you do not think that I have a personal problem with you. The only probloem we have is the disagreement of Ty Willingham.

Agreed.

With that said doing good for one year is not grounds for being a good coach. A good coach is exactly that a good coach. The sun shines on a horses ass on somedays, making it to the Rose Bowl once and having a 10-2 season once and then turning around and going straight downward is not what a good coach does. Im sorry but your premises are not true..

One good season does not make a good coach...but a career winning of around 60% does not sound to me like the record of a coach who "sucks". As for Stanford, he took over a program that was garbage after Walsh & Green left. He compiled a winning record, and a Rose Bowl berth at a school that hadn't seen success in years. A coach that "sucks" doesn't take teams with average talent to multiple bowl games. As for the individual games, I find it humorus that you give Willingham the blame for his losses, but give the players credit for the victories. You can't have it both ways. The bottom line is players make plays and the coaches manage games. You can't have a successful coach without talented players, and vice-versa.

Ty's official title at ND was "Head Football Coach" by virtue a head football coach is one that coaches, the virtue of a thing or being is what constitutes its value, so by that LOGIC, a good knife cuts well, a good gun shoots well, AND a "good footbal coach" coaches well and wins constantly. So by virtue he was not a "good Coach" sorry but thats how it works.

And by virtue, a coach that "sucks" would probably have to have a record indicative of that. If Willingham's lifetime winning percentage was 50%, then you could say he was an average coach. If he was in the 30-40%'s, you could say he was a terrible coach. 20% and below, then I would agree that he "sucks". But he's won too many games and graduated too many kids to say that he "sucks".

When it comes down to it you support Ty because you think he is a good man, GREAT. Im not denying that. Im saying Ty was not a good coach. Now if Ty decides he wants to come over and have a beer I will not stop him but if he wants to coach my local high school football team than i would have to stop him.

And I'm saying he was a solid coach AND a good man. Is he a top 5 coach? No...he's not even a Top 10 coach...but he's a better than average coach, and one of the best people in the game. To say that he "sucked", just because it ended badly at ND is just wrong. He wasn't the right fit for the University(although he did bail us out of the O'Leary mess), but I think he'll do well in Seattle.

 

[bmf175]

Agreed.


One good season does not make a good coach...but a career winning of around 60% does not sound to me like the record of a coach who "sucks". As for Stanford, he took over a program that was garbage after Walsh & Green left. He compiled a winning record, and a Rose Bowl berth at a school that hadn't seen success in years. A coach that "sucks" doesn't take teams with average talent to multiple bowl games. As for the individual games, I find it humorus that you give Willingham the blame for his losses, but give the players credit for the victories. You can't have it both ways. The bottom line is players make plays and the coaches manage games. You can't have a successful coach without talented players, and vice-versa.


And by virtue, a coach that "sucks" would probably have to have a record indicative of that. If Willingham's lifetime winning percentage was 50%, then you could say he was an average coach. If he was in the 30-40%'s, you could say he was a terrible coach. 20% and below, then I would agree that he "sucks". But he's won too many games and graduated too many kids to say that he "sucks".

And I'm saying he was a solid coach AND a good man. Is he a top 5 coach? No...he's not even a Top 10 coach...but he's a better than average coach, and one of the best people in the game. To say that he "sucked", just because it ended badly at ND is just wrong. He wasn't the right fit for the University(although he did bail us out of the O'Leary mess), but I think he'll do well in Seattle.

OK why dont we do this... What was Ty's record at ND? It wasnt very good PERIOD!!! there is no it was "average" it was "ok" it is either did he meet the standards of ND or not. Because as it stands right now he is currently a coach that has a 24-15 record (not exact but in the neighbrohood) A coach with that on his credentials is not very impressive.
And I didnt give all the victories to the ploayers!!! Only the UT game thats all I said. If you can say that the Tennesse game was won by coaching on Ty's part I can see this is useful and you just do not want to admit the facts.
ND had maybe 100 yards that night Tennesse was the better team and they too looked bad. But the only thing that seperated them that night was one interception. That is all. So you can find it humorous all you want but it is the truth.
And its not like he made continual appearances in BCS bowls (if the rose bowl was a BCS bowl that year)

NO!!! by virtue a coach that sucks loses to teams that have less talent and always loses to the same teams that haveless talents, it wasnt like those teams pulled of upsets that only happen once every decade or two, they lost year in and year out to subpar teams.
TOO MANY GAMES???? If he did "win too many games" he would still be living in South Bend, is that not correct?
The head coach does not graduate players the school and the players graduate all the head coach does is ensure that the players have time to study and are provided proper facilities to ensure that the player has good grades. And how much does the head coach do even that? The academic advisors do all that, so the real reason why there is a good grad rate at ND is not because of him it is becasue ND goes out of their way to promote academics. eVEN BEFOR ty GOT THERE.The head coach does not tutor students in economics, all he does is provide the opportunities to excel, whether they do or not is up to them.

Why even bring up Top 5 or 10 in the same sentance as TY. He is not even in the top 30. And you know why? because ND isnt even ranked in the top 30 (maybe not even in the top 40) you can not have a high ranked coach with a low ranking team thats not how it works.

 

[Guest]

Whatsup with Ty getting his coaching staff together. I think he still needs to fill about 5 coaching vacancies. Washington will have an awful recruiting year this year.

Thank goodness Weis got his staff together fast....

How long are Washington fans going to stay patient.

 

[NDLyght37]

OK why dont we do this... What was Ty's record at ND? It wasnt very good PERIOD!!! there is no it was "average" it was "ok" it is either did he meet the standards of ND or not. Because as it stands right now he is currently a coach that has a 24-15 record (not exact but in the neighbrohood) A coach with that on his credentials is not very impressive.

I'd say he had an average record. Everything is not an extreme.

NO!!! by virtue a coach that sucks loses to teams that have less talent and always loses to the same teams that haveless talents, it wasnt like those teams pulled of upsets that only happen once every decade or two, they lost year in and year out to subpar teams. TOO MANY GAMES???? If he did "win too many games" he would still be living in South Bend, is that not correct?.

Ok man, when are you going to start reading my posts instead of skimming them and loading up both barrels with your anti-Willingham sentiments? What I said was that he has won too many games to be classified as a coach that "sucks". 60% does not equal a "sucky" coach to me. There are programs across the country that would kill for that level of "suckiness". Also, can you clearly state that we had more talent year in and year out than Purdue, Boston College, Michigan and USC? I don't think so (maybe BC...but not the others).

The head coach does not graduate players the school and the players graduate all the head coach does is ensure that the players have time to study and are provided proper facilities to ensure that the player has good grades. And how much does the head coach do even that? The academic advisors do all that, so the real reason why there is a good grad rate at ND is not because of him it is becasue ND goes out of their way to promote academics. eVEN BEFOR ty GOT THERE.The head coach does not tutor students in economics, all he does is provide the opportunities to excel, whether they do or not is up to them.

Are you kidding me? College coaches are a very important part in graduating their athletes. If you don't agree with that, just look at how a Bob Huggins or a Barry Switzer ran their program, and then take a look at what coaches with high graduation rates do. I guarantee you will see a distinct difference in the programs.

Why even bring up Top 5 or 10 in the same sentance as TY. He is not even in the top 30. And you know why? because ND isnt even ranked in the top 30 (maybe not even in the top 40) you can not have a high ranked coach with a low ranking team thats not how it works.

Yes you can. Florida State has had down years, but Bowden's a Hall Of Fame coach. Same goes for Paterno. Same goes for Holtz at South Carolina. A great coach will get the most out of his players, but that doesn't always equal a National Championship. And Willingham is a Top 25 coach because he's solid (but not spectacular) on gameday...but mainly because of how well he fills out the second part of his job description: he takes these young kids that are sent to him and he helps turn them into men. He gives them an example of how a man should conduct himself (on & off the field), and that's something too many coaches neglect these days.
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Whatsup with Ty getting his coaching staff together. I think he still needs to fill about 5 coaching vacancies.

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that? But the O.C. is arguably the most important vacancy, so he needs to take his time. I doubt he wants a repeat of the Deidrick thing.

 

[bmf175]

I'd say he had an average record. Everything is not an extreme.


Ok man, when are you going to start reading my posts instead of skimming them and loading up both barrels with your anti-Willingham sentiments? What I said was that he has won too many games to be classified as a coach that "sucks". 60% does not equal a "sucky" coach to me. There are programs across the country that would kill for that level of "suckiness". Also, can you clearly state that we had more talent year in and year out than Purdue, Boston College, Michigan and USC? I don't think so (maybe BC...but not the others).


And you are saying that I do not read your posts? When did I state that ND had more talent then USC and Michigan? I think it was obvious that I was refering to BC, yes Purdue (thats why we were favored to defeat them this year),Pitt. Yes ND had better talent than these teams!!! If you lose to teams that have less talent it is due to poor coaching.....Like you just admitted his mistake with Diedrick.

 

[bmf175]

Yes you can. Florida State has had down years, but Bowden's a Hall Of Fame coach. Same goes for Paterno. Same goes for Holtz at South Carolina. A great coach will get the most out of his players, but that doesn't always equal a National Championship. And Willingham is a Top 25 coach because he's solid (but not spectacular) on gameday...but mainly because of how well he fills out the second part of his job description: he takes these young kids that are sent to him and he helps turn them into men. He gives them an example of how a man should conduct himself (on & off the field), and that's something too many coaches neglect these days.

OK heres the difference in the great coaching names you just brought up.
Bowden, Holtz, Paterno have bad years and all coaches do. But with these coaches the number of Good years out number the bad.
How long has Ty been a head coach? And out of all those years the bad or subpar years outnumber the good years. Now that also falls depends on what you consider a good year. We will say finishing with 8 wins in year is a good coaches record maybe even 7. So with Ty its more rare to have a year when he is in the hunt for a NC not to mention a Conf Championship.

 

[bmf175]

Are you kidding me? College coaches are a very important part in graduating their athletes. If you don't agree with that, just look at how a Bob Huggins or a Barry Switzer ran their program, and then take a look at what coaches with high graduation rates do. I guarantee you will see a distinct difference in the programs.


Nope not kidding. I know how college football works. The head football coachs time is filled with so many other things that he does not personally take care of academics. Thats what you have Academic advisors for..... they handle the academic aspect of football do you think all these coaches like Huggins and Switzer personally sat in study hall and sharpened pencils for the athletes? NOhe is busy taking care of the logistics that is required to run a football program.

 

[NDLyght37]

And you are saying that I do not read your posts? When did I state that ND had more talent then USC and Michigan? I think it was obvious that I was refering to BC, yes Purdue (thats why we were favored to defeat them this year),Pitt. Yes ND had better talent than these teams!!! If you lose to teams that have less talent it is due to poor coaching.....Like you just admitted his mistake with Diedrick.

You said we were routinely beat by teams less talented than us. Those are the only 4 teams that beat us on a regular basis. Michigan & USC were obviously more talented. But it can certainly be argued that Purdue (and maybe even BC) have improved their talent level over the past 3-4 years. And we can both agree that Diedrick was not his best hire.

OK heres the difference in the great coaching names you just brought up.
Bowden, Holtz, Paterno have bad years and all coaches do. But with these coaches the number of Good years out number the bad.
How long has Ty been a head coach? And out of all those years the bad or subpar years outnumber the good years. Now that also falls depends on what you consider a good year. We will say finishing with 8 wins in year is a good coaches record maybe even 7. So with Ty its more rare to have a year when he is in the hunt for a NC not to mention a Conf Championship.

Just going on his record, he averages about 6 wins a year. Which is average, like I have been saying all along. If he "sucked", he would be under .500 lifetime, and average about 3-4 wins a year.

Nope not kidding. I know how college football works. The head football coachs time is filled with so many other things that he does not personally take care of academics. Thats what you have Academic advisors for..... they handle the academic aspect of football do you think all these coaches like Huggins and Switzer personally sat in study hall and sharpened pencils for the athletes? NO he is busy taking care of the logistics that is required to run a football program.

Obviously they're not in on every class or study session...but they are involved in monitoring the student-athlete, as well as making arrangements with tutors and advisors. And ultimately they are the ones who take the hit for not graduating their kids. So to dismiss a coaches' role in the process is just wrong.

 

[bmf175]

OK so you are standing up for an average(in your words) coach. Thats what you said (although Im sure I will be accussed of not "reading" your post)

WHY is it again that you think TY deserved another year? You said your self he was a coach with an average coaching record, so why would you want him to stay at ND again? Oh yes because he was a "good guy"...Come on be serious.

So is that what you think ND deserves is another year of being average? Your arguement as a whole has no firm ground. And placing Ty in the same sentence as the great coaches is an insult. You cant say Lou Holtz was the greatest and then compare him to Ty Willinghams inconsistancy.

The hole arguement about Head Coaches and graduating players isnt really going anywhere. I pretty much said he plays an indirect role, but he still plays a role, what are you saying? You are making it sound like he goes out and looks for tutors, but in fact they dont the advisors do.

So after all of our posts we have came up with Ty Willingham is Average to below average coach, he is a "good man", he looks like a "old school" coach when he loses, and you still think he is a top 25 coach. I think you are showing favortism to your "brother" and trying to defend him and make reasons why he was fired.
Because nothing in your arguements have any logical basis they only prove that you have a bias towards him and are not taking an impartial view on his coaching abilities.
Correct me if Im wrong...(or right)

 

[NDLyght37]

Alright, last responses before bed:

OK so you are standing up for an average(in your words) coach. Thats what you said (although Im sure I will be accussed of not "reading" your post)

You're finally reading me right. Ty is an average coach. Just a solid coach. This is all I have ever stated. He is not Paterno or Holtz, but he's also not (insert the name of a coach that sucks), either.

WHY is it again that you think TY deserved another year? You said your self he was a coach with an average coaching record, so why would you want him to stay at ND again? Oh yes because he was a "good guy"...Come on be serious.

I think he deserved a full four years because it's only fair to allow a coach that has done reasonably well a chance to finish out with his recruiting class. I think it's fair to follow a precedent that you have set. And I think that while his record should have been better, I could see the improvment from year to year. And yes, I put a hell of a lot of value in the character of my head coach...I'm just different in that way I guess.

So after all of our posts we have came up with Ty Willingham is Average to below average coach, he is a "good man", he looks like a "old school" coach when he loses, and you still think he is a top 25 coach. I think you are showing favortism to your "brother" and trying to defend him and make reasons why he was fired.
Because nothing in your arguements have any logical basis they only prove that you have a bias towards him and are not taking an impartial view on his coaching abilities.
Correct me if Im wrong...(or right)

My "brother"...cute. Anyways, I think he's a solid coach (Not Top 10, but certainly Top25-30 of Division-1 coaches) and a great man that was in a situation that was not right for him. But once you bring that man into the situation, to fire him prematurely sends a bad message. It says that we care more about football wins & losses than developing young men who also excel at athletics. ESPECIALLY when you know that firing said coach will cause a firestorm of negative press that the University can ill afford after the O'Leary debacle (which Willingham coach rescued us from).

Again, I have admitted that I am a fan of Willingham, so you know I'm somewhat biased. I would be proud to send my son (if I have one) to play on his Washington team. But, I have never said that he is anything more than just a solid coach. I think you are biased as well. You have no logical basis for why he should not have been given a fourth year, just opinion...same as anyone else.

Finally, it amuses me that some ND supporters are so anti-Willingham that they can't see that both the University and Coach Willingham are better off. I hope both schools have success next year, and I find it hard to believe that so many Irish fans would wish ill will on a man that restored some class to our program.

 

[Aerosmith777]

Tys official title at ND was "Head Football Coach" by virtue a head football coach is one that coaches, the virtue of a thing or being is what constitutes its value, so by that LOGIC, a good knife cuts well, a good gun shoots well, AND a "good footbal coach" coaches well and wins constantly.
So by virtue he was not a "good Coach" sorry but thats how it works.

I know its a little late in the game for this, but BMF, I have to say, I think you just explained my freshman intro to Philosophy class to me, solid job! :awesomewo Lol, Plato couldn't have written it any better.

 

[bmf175]

The basis for my Logic is that the teams overall talent level was in decline due to lack of proper recruiting. You can not look and see what Weis is doing and turn around and say Willingham was a good recruiter or even average. And you can not expect someone to improve their record when they are showing a decline in coaching and the number of great athletes coming in. Willingham was big on, "next year is our year" i recall him saying that acouple times. Why would he say that recruiting was not competitive enough to put ND in a position were they can, instnatly become competitive, thats not how it works.

NO you are no different than anyone else eveybody goes by character and virtues but there comes a point in time when the persons performance plays a factor in him keeping his job. And you start thinking he is not the only man with charcater out ther, and we should be able to get somebody with character AND that can do all aspects of coaching a football team.

CLASS!!! The only thing TY brought back to ND was criticism from all aspects of the sports world. Yes there was some class lost when Davie was here but TY did not bring anything back. The only thing TY brought back was the ability to "look good losing" and that is all.

Lets say we gave TY another year the undisputable facts are that he would have had another average year (6 wins) What the hell does that prove?
ND is a big school for business majors, right? So by firing sombody that does not fulfill the standards set forth upon them when being hired, is actually a good education for the students and athletes.
Why because it is called LIFE!!! You can be the nicest, coolest guy in the office but if that is all you are good for you do not belong.

And dont be surprised with alot of ND fans being TY haters. Most people that know how the world turns realizes that he was subpar for ND and shouldnt have been hired in the first place.

 

[NDLyght37]

The basis for my Logic is that the teams overall talent level was in decline due to lack of proper recruiting. You can not look and see what Weis is doing and turn around and say Willingham was a good recruiter or even average. And you can not expect someone to improve their record when they are showing a decline in coaching and the number of great athletes coming in. Willingham was big on, "next year is our year" i recall him saying that acouple times. Why would he say that recruiting was not competitive enough to put ND in a position were they can, instnatly become competitive, thats not how it works.

But the team was improving, and i feel he deserved a fourth year. You don't. And therein lies the crux of our disagreement.

NO you are no different than anyone else eveybody goes by character and virtues but there comes a point in time when the persons performance plays a factor in him keeping his job. And you start thinking he is not the only man with charcater out ther, and we should be able to get somebody with character AND that can do all aspects of coaching a football team..

I agree...but let's not get skewed and think that winning is the be all & end all of "amatuer" coaching. This is not the pros. Coaches on the college level & down SHOULD be about more than just wins & losses.

CLASS!!! The only thing TY brought back to ND was criticism from all aspects of the sports world. Yes there was some class lost when Davie was here but TY did not bring anything back. The only thing TY brought back was the ability to "look good losing" and that is all..

Oh how convenient. You forget that this man saved the Universities collective butt when George "Great White Hype" O'Leary turned out to be a fraud. Willingham brought an air of class & dignity to the program that was severley lacking because of the hits that we took from O'Leary-Gate.

Lets say we gave TY another year the undisputable facts are that he would have had another average year (6 wins) What the hell does that prove?
ND is a big school for business majors, right? So by firing sombody that does not fulfill the standards set forth upon them when being hired, is actually a good education for the students and athletes.
Why because it is called LIFE!!! You can be the nicest, coolest guy in the office but if that is all you are good for you do not belong..

And when have I ever said that he was the right hire in the first place...never. But once you sign that contract, you cannot fire someone who is doing a reasonably acceptable job without giving them that fourth year...especially when you'vce never done it before.

And dont be surprised with alot of ND fans being TY haters. Most people that know how the world turns realizes that he was subpar for ND and shouldnt have been hired in the first place.

And I agree. But you shouldn't wish a man that initially helped your program ill-will when both he & ND will be better off. That's just classless and hateful. I have said all along that he wasn't the right man for ND (to be fair, we don't even know if Weis is yet...but he deserves 4 years to show us). But If I were the AD of "Generic U", I'd hire a person like Ty Willingham in a heartbeat. I could live with his caoching style, but I would have input on his staff & hire some better recruiters. But with someone that has that much integrity, you don't treat them like garbage.

No big deal, as always we'll agree to disagree...Costello.

 

[bmf175]

I never wished him ill will now did I. Im just trying to make the point that he is a less than average coach that deserved what he got, which was his walking papers. Its not like I wished his kidneys to stop working or anything like that.

And you can not say that besides those two years he has good records, that he is a good coach. PAC-10 has some good teams in the conference but it is no SEC or ACC so hes "good years" at Stanford would again have been below average at ND.
Minus USC and Cal you have nothing special.
So if you go by that Ty did average to below average at stanford playing average teams. And I dont know how you are but average to below average "sucks" if you think an average anything deserves kudos it once again shows something about your personal standards.

but I can not help noticing the fact that you keep bringing color into this either inadvertantly or for some other reason. I can not get the thought out of my mind that you are supporting Ty because he is black, and that is the only reason you are supporting him, and that is BS.

 

[bmf175]

I know its a little late in the game for this, but BMF, I have to say, I think you just explained my freshman intro to Philosophy class to me, solid job! :awesomewo Lol, Plato couldn't have written it any better.

Yes I love philosophy but there is more to it than the logic stand point and the virtue of things.

One thing I have learned is that in spite of somebody being told the truth in a logical way that they still refuse to admit their own fallacies.

And the old saying "wow!! what is he thinking?" you want to say ,"well he is just thinking a different way", but in actuality some people do not think or allow their personal feelings get in the way of seeing the truth.

Thats the most frustrating thing about studying philosophy you see things others do not but they refuse to use logic to solve their problems.

But thanks.

 

[NDLyght37]

I never wished him ill will now did I. Im just trying to make the point that he is a less than average coach that deserved what he got, which was his walking papers. Its not like I wished his kidneys to stop working or anything like that..

But several of our Irish brethern have wished failure upon him. That is a classless thing to do. He's an average coach & a great man...we're better off & he's better off, why is there still so much hate towards him?

And you can not say that besides those two years he has good records, that he is a good coach. PAC-10 has some good teams in the conference but it is no SEC or ACC so hes "good years" at Stanford would again have been below average at ND.
Minus USC and Cal you have nothing special.
So if you go by that Ty did average to below average at stanford playing average teams. And I dont know how you are but average to below average "sucks" if you think an average anything deserves kudos it once again shows something about your personal standards.

Willingham was a good Pac-10 coach, and he's back in his old stomping grounds, so what's the problem? You can only beat who is on your schedule. And by defenition, "average" does not equal "sucks". Average is just that...average. Again, everything is not an extreme.

but I can not help noticing the fact that you keep bringing color into this either inadvertantly or for some other reason. I can not get the thought out of my mind that you are supporting Ty because he is black, and that is the only reason you are supporting him, and that is BS.

I support Ty because he is a solid coach & a great man. The fact that he is Black is a bonus, but not the be all & end-all for me. My favorite coaches/managers of all-time are Holtz, Paterno, Bowden, Wooden, Coach K, Dean Smith, Bobby Cox, Dan Reeves, Denny Green, Frank Robinson and Eddie Robinson. With the exception of Green and the Robinsons, they're all White guys...so I don't see your point. The link is that (outside of Bowden...lol), all these coaches are beyond reproach as men. That's who I would want coaching my son, regardless of color. That's what I look for, first & foremost. If Ron Zook were an honorable man (I don't know if he is or not), I would have supported him having a fourth year as well. Maybe I'm too patient, but it's better than the alternative...hiring a new coach every 4-5 years.

My whole point is 3-fold:
1. Willingham did not "suck" as a football coach. He was not right for ND, but he is a solid coach, as he demonstrated in the Pac-10 and in the NFL.

2. I think he deserved a 4th year. Just my opinion, but I don't think you can fire a guy before his contract ends, especially when you have let coaches with worse records fulfill their deals.

3. ND is better off and Tyrone Willingham is better off.

Personally, I'm through with the issue. But, anytime the Ty-Haters want to slander a guy who saved our collective backsides from embarassment, I'll be there to smack down their hateful statements. It's like when you break up with your girl, but then you still bitch about her for the next month...why? Why waste your energy disparaging a man who is somewhere else? Why tear down a great role model just to make yourself feel bigger? Why trash a guy who wasn't Holtz...but he damn sure wasn't Faust. Why hate on an honorable man, when we have potentially a better coach in our midst? Again, not saying this is you...but I hear it alot from ND fans.

So, I might be in the minority (then again, I always am)...but I will certainly defend Coach Willingham against unwarranted attacks. Fair criticism is one thing...heck, I criticisize him all the time. But I won't just sit back when people want to take cheap shots at the guy. Back to you "Frack".

 

[irishgo8]

My whole point is 3-fold:
1. Willingham did not "suck" as a football coach. He was not right for ND, but he is a solid coach, as he demonstrated in the Pac-10 and in the NFL.

ok if he was not right for ND then WHY do u want to prolong the agony...

2. I think he deserved a 4th year. Just my opinion, but I don't think you can fire a guy before his contract ends, especially when you have let coaches with worse records fulfill their deals.

At first i thought he should get a 4th year - but seeing the way that he let ESPN, etc just continually attack us for weeks then i decided otherwise - and i thought about it and said:

WHY do u want to prolong the agony...

3. ND is better off and Tyrone Willingham is better off.

LOL

 

[NDLyght37]

ok if he was not right for ND then WHY do u want to prolong the agony...

I just think once you commit to a guy, it's only right to let him coach one full recruiting class. He probably shouldn't have been hired in the first place, but once you sign him up, you have to let him "coach 'em up".

At first i thought he should get a 4th year - but seeing the way that he let ESPN, etc just continually attack us for weeks then i decided otherwise.

Why is it up to Ty to defend the place that just fired him? That's White's responsibility. That's the responsibility of former players. That's the responsibility of Chucky Weis...it's not the responsibility of the guy that got released. I think Ty showed class by not joining in on the attacks. Most people would have said something negative about the place that just terminated them.

 

[irishgo8]

I just think once you commit to a guy, it's only right to let him coach one full recruiting class. He probably shouldn't have been hired in the first place, but once you sign him up, you have to let him "coach 'em up"..

I bought some milk at the store and it spoiled before the expiration date - need to keep it until the experation date cause thats its right to be kept until then. East Carolina fired a coach after 2 years yes 2 YEARS. and quite a few other schools fired coaches after 3 years

Why is it up to Ty to defend the place that just fired him? That's White's responsibility. That's the responsibility of former players. That's the responsibility of Chucky Weis...it's not the responsibility of the guy that got released. I think Ty showed class by not joining in on the attacks. Most people would have said something negative about the place that just terminated them.

I think i gotcha but i mean ND really if they wanted to could have said enough about him to end his head coaching career (see the list of reasons Ty was fired).

PS i am just debating with u - dont mean to heat up the conversation

 

[NDLyght37]

I bought some milk at the store and it spoiled before the expiration date - need to keep it until the experation date cause thats its right to be kept until then. East Carolina fired a coach after 2 years yes 2 YEARS. and quite a few other schools fired coaches after 3 years

True...and I disagree with those firings too. I always lean on the side of wait too long rather than not waiting long enough. I may be wrong, but I'd rather wait and see if there is any room for growth than to give up and switch coaches every 3-4 years.

I think i gotcha but i mean ND really if they wanted to could have said enough about him to end his head coaching career (see the list of reasons Ty was fired).

Of course they could have...but they had enough class not to. Just like Ty had enough class not to attack the University. But it really wasn't his fault the media piled onto the school.

PS i am just debating with u - dont mean to heat up the conversation

It's all good. It's not even really that heated. I don't have any problem at all with people who think he should have been fired. My only problem is with people who would go out of their way to attack the guy. He wasn't the best coach in the country...but he was far from the worst. He was in a situation that apparently wasn't working for anyone involved, so they ended the relationship. There's always going to be various opinions on issues like this, and I respect differing opinions. I'm just against bashing Willingham (or any decent coach for that matter) after he's gone.

 

[irishgo8]

True...and I disagree with those firings too. I always lean on the side of wait too long rather than not waiting long enough. I may be wrong, but I'd rather wait and see if there is any room for growth than to give up and switch coaches every 3-4 years.

Ok lol let me see :swordfigh ok i am ready lol alot of my relatives went to Illini so i have to watch them so i am not left out of the conversation heres what Ron Turner did at Illinois
0-11
3-8
year three 8-4 including a trouncing of Virginia in the Micron Pc bowl. IF a coach can do that at a non fb school then losingham should have gotten it done at ND in 3 years - also after 5 years of Davie and already 3 of Davieham = 8 years of mediocracy then y suffer 2 more years

Of course they could have...but they had enough class not to. Just like Ty had enough class not to attack the University. But it really wasn't his fault the media piled onto the school.

I understand complety but i think he could have done something or some1 done something

It's all good. It's not even really that heated. I don't have any problem at all with people who think he should have been fired. My only problem is with people who would go out of their way to attack the guy. He wasn't the best coach in the country...but he was far from the worst.
He was in a situation that apparently wasn't working for anyone involved, so they ended the relationship. There's always going to be various opinions on issues like this, and I respect differing opinions. I'm just against bashing Willingham (or any decent coach for that matter) after he's gone.

posted so it isnt taken wrongly and i get banned or somthing

 

[NDLyght37]

Ok lol let me see :swordfigh ok i am ready lol alot of my relatives went to Illini so i have to watch them so i am not left out of the conversation heres what Ron Turner did at Illinois
0-11
3-8
year three 8-4 including a trouncing of Virginia in the Micron Pc bowl. IF a coach can do that at a non fb school then losingham should have gotten it done at ND in 3 years - also after 5 years of Davie and already 3 of Davieham = 8 years of mediocracy then y suffer 2 more years:

That's like a reverse Willingham...Ron turner did 2 terrible years & a great year, while Ty gave us a great year, a bad year, and an average year. So why did Turner get the boot then? I don't disagree that the mediocraty needs to end...but I also don't think that switching coaches every few years is the answer. You have to build (or in this case re-build) a program...and usually that takes time. I would have said the same thing if we had hired O'Leary or Gruden or anyone else. 10-2 had everybody excited...but it was also unrealistic. 5-6 was a disaster...but it was also something I expected. I thought this year we would win 7 or 8 games...but we lost 2 or 3 games we clearly should have won. Can you blame the coach for that? Absolutley. But I would have given him one more season to see if that 6-5 could turn into an 8-3 or better. If not, then you make a change in the coaching staff.

I understand complety but i think he could have done something or some1 done something

I think what he did was take the "high road"...unfortunately some people in the media didn't follow him down that road. He wasn't going to talk about it either way (good or bad), although he did compliment the University & theteam on the way out.

posted so it isnt taken wrongly and i get banned or somthing

You're banned...lol. Seriously, you haven't said anything that would be worthy of a ban in this thread, so why worry about it.

 

[irishgo8]

That's like a reverse Willingham...Ron turner did 2 terrible years & a great year, while Ty gave us a great year, a bad year, and an average year. So why did Turner get the boot then? I don't disagree that the mediocraty needs to end...but I also don't think that switching coaches every few years is the answer. You have to build (or in this case re-build) a program...and usually that takes time. I would have said the same thing if we had hired O'Leary or Gruden or anyone else. 10-2 had everybody excited...but it was also unrealistic. 5-6 was a disaster...but it was also something I expected. I thought this year we would win 7 or 8 games...but we lost 2 or 3 games we clearly should have won. Can you blame the coach for that? Absolutley. But I would have given him one more season to see if that 6-5 could turn into an 8-3 or better. If not, then you make a change in the coaching staff.


I think what he did was take the "high road"...unfortunately some people in the media didn't follow him down that road. He wasn't going to talk about it either way (good or bad), although he did compliment the University & theteam on the way out.


You're banned...lol. Seriously, you haven't said anything that would be worthy of a ban in this thread, so why worry about it.

Ok ill be back in the morning with more lol but ok about turner - my point is he turned the program around in 3 years - he had absolutly NO talent thats y he went 0-11 and 3-8 but the 3rd year 8-4 at a non fb school. Also at the end of the year we should have had something to look forwared to - not a 0-3 ending do u get me?

 

[bmf175]

OK well it is obvious that nobody is gaining any ground either due to being narrow minded or just being biased based on something that has nothing to do with football.(race, color)
But you are forgetting one thing ND has the right to fire who ever they want, especially if that person negotiated a buy out clause himself. ( or what I refer to as a "im a fake" clause and once you find out I want you to pay me to leave.)

You keep defending somebody that is not a very good coach and I will keep up holding the standards of ND. Totally different beliefs one lives his life by trying to uphold the highest standards anf the other is happy with average.

 

[NDLyght37]

OK well it is obvious that nobody is gaining any ground either due to being narrow minded or just being biased based on something that has nothing to do with football.(race, color)
But you are forgetting one thing ND has the right to fire who ever they want, especially if that person negotiated a buy out clause himself. ( or what I refer to as a "im a fake" clause and once you find out I want you to pay me to leave.)

Yes, this will end in a standoff, I reckon.

Now, did I ever say that the University didn't have a right to dismiss it's employee? Of course they have the power to do so...that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

You keep defending somebody that is not a very good coach and I will keep up holding the standards of ND. Totally different beliefs one lives his life by trying to uphold the highest standards anf the other is happy with average.

Actually, I think there's more to college football than just wins & losses (or at least there should be). Again, Willingham was a solid coach & a great man...but not right for the University. ND is better now, and Ty's in a better situation. But any Irish fan who would wish trouble on a man who helped us out in one of our darkest hours is classless, IMO.

 

[bmf175]

Well once again I dont remember wishing ill will to Ty... I simply said he was a sorry coach.

Do you relize that this debate with you and me has been hit up close to 300 times? I bet everybody agrees with ME... LOL