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Rip Rap

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I really don't think ND is particularly conservative. There are a lot of students who claim to be Republican, more than the 50/50 ratio one would otherwise expect, but the only thing they're interested in conserving is what they have so that nobody else can get it.
 
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the_voidoid

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Rip Rap said:
I really don't think ND is particularly conservative. There are a lot of students who claim to be Republican, more than the 50/50 ratio one would otherwise expect, but the only thing they're interested in conserving is what they have so that nobody else can get it.

notre dame is very conservative. obviously the demographics of the student body account for that: a lot of midwestern kids from conservative families. you mentioned the university is not adamantly catholic; i feel the opposite. from a male/female social situation is an anachronism - parietals, single sex dorms, boy tables and girl tables in the dining hall, and (appallingly) the gay/lesbian student organization is not officially recognized by the university. how is this not extremely conservative? the environment fosters unhealthy interaction between the sexes at an age when they're still figuring things out.

FYI - understand that i am a staunch supporter of priests marrying, female priests, and liberal italian popes. i'm at the extreme left....
 
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Rip Rap

Guest
You are speaking about the school at an institutional level, refering to residential life policies. First, dorm policies never bothered me and you know full well that like any mode of elicit behavior, coitus and other less conventional modes of sexual union can and do occur. Kids at ND have sex, smoke pot, etc. But you argue that the distinction of the dorms motivates some sort of confusion when kids 'are still figuring it out,' and I think the motivator has always been the promotion of a fraternal atmosphere.

I, like many young Domers, sat at a table full of girls in North Dining Hall, largely because of the interaction between Stanford and Breen-Phillips Halls.

And while you may be on the extreme Left, I also believe you claim to be an atheist, which leads me to wonder why you even express such a deep concern for the internal policies of the clergy.
 
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the_voidoid

Guest
Rip Rap said:
And while you may be on the extreme Left, I also believe you claim to be an atheist, which leads me to wonder why you even express such a deep concern for the internal policies of the clergy.

i am atheist, but i attended catholic school from kindergarten through college and my family is practicing catholic (especially my mom, who teaches at my old high school). i know my share about the faith.

how do you address the fact that ND does not recognize the gay/lesbian student group? shouldn't a christian institution accept everyone? how is this not socially regressive?
 
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Rip Rap

Guest
the_voidoid said:
i am atheist, but i attended catholic school from kindergarten through college and my family is practicing catholic (especially my mom, who teaches at my old high school). i know my share about the faith.

how do you address the fact that ND does not recognize the gay/lesbian student group? shouldn't a christian institution accept everyone? how is this not socially regressive?

The university does recognize a homosexual group, it just doesn't recognize the one you are referring to because GLNDSMC seeks to promote the legitimacy-not of chastity-but of homosexual union. Chastity is something all people should be expected to live by, and to say that homosexuals should not live a chaste life is to make them less then human (and therefore unequal).

Also, ND does not let either the Tridentine or Byzantine rites of mass be performed on campus, and those are approved by the Catholic Church. Nor does it allow the Prelature of Opus Dei, the Legionaries of Christ, or the Neochatachumens recognized status. And these are all approved groups. Even John Paul II himself is the head of Opus Dei.
 
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the_voidoid

Guest
Rip Rap said:
The university does recognize a homosexual group, it just doesn't recognize the one you are referring to because GLNDSMC seeks to promote the legitimacy-not of chastity-but of homosexual union. Chastity is something all people should be expected to live by, and to say that homosexuals should not live a chaste life is to make them less then human (and therefore unequal).

i haven't read the glnd/smc mission statement so i can't make any assumptions about what agenda they're attempting to promote. if you know for a fact that they seek to promote homosexual union rather than acceptance of sexual orientation, than you win. however, if their goal is to promote better awareness and acceptance of people with a different sexual orientation, then i feel the university is out of line by not recognizing them like any other organization.

what about the 1997 "spirit of inclusion" letter from the university, whose "goal" is to "create an environment of mutual respect, hospitality and warmth in which none are strangers and all may flourish." this was offered in lieu of a non-discrimination clause for sexual orientation in the school's hiring process.
 
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Rip Rap

Guest
the_voidoid said:
i haven't read the glnd/smc mission statement so i can't make any assumptions about what agenda they're attempting to promote. if you know for a fact that they seek to promote homosexual union rather than acceptance of sexual orientation, than you win. however, if their goal is to promote better awareness and acceptance of people with a different sexual orientation, then i feel the university is out of line by not recognizing them like any other organization.

what about the 1997 "spirit of inclusion" letter from the university, whose "goal" is to "create an environment of mutual respect, hospitality and warmth in which none are strangers and all may flourish." this was offered in lieu of a non-discrimination clause for sexual orientation in the school's hiring process.

In all fairness, the explicit mission statement from either glnd/smc or OutreachND is something I haven't seen in some time. As for the 'spirit of inclusion,' I think that is fair from a legal standpoint. One should always be vague in official written wording, at least whenever it comes to anything binding. This is a basic principle of jurisprudence.

However, none of this addressed why I think ND is too liberal. Hence:

ND has stated that the promotion of anything contrary to what the Church teaches is not to be allowed. However, the annual 'Vagina Monologues,' which aggitates not only for homosexual eroticism, but also pedophilia and (participatory?) rape, will be shown in the coming month. Likewise, ND had fetal tissue research in the 80s. Recently, professors from the law school used their positions to promote the legality of abortion (Bradley), and an anti-semitic terrorist sympathiser was recently recommended for a position at the Kroc Institute (Ramadan). The theology department annually challenges the current status of celibacy and promotes the ordination of women in a regularly-scheduled conference. While abortion is oppositional to Church teaching, the Center for Women's Concerns has twice been found giving abortion materials to young girls (I know both the girls that brought them down both times). So too are the College Democrats given recognized status, though I also think the College Republicans should have their status revoked. Equally, the largest anti-Catholic rally in the nation, the annual Jehova's Witnesses convention, has been held in the JACC.

Further, the students are remarkably passive toward Christian orthodoxy and outreach. The time and effort I put into the Knights of Columbus, the Corvilla Home, the Women's Care Center, the South Bend Center for the Homeless, the Diocesen Eucharistic Conference, FoodShare, etc.; as well as the fund-rasing I did for the Mission and Catholic Charities, the statue I placed on campus and the Gospel in Bishop Jenkey's hands, etc. won me limited respect from other students. Further, it was the same ten people at that school that did everything, and I knew them all because of it. I think most people at ND are only interested in themselves.

Also, as for intellectual conservatism. I know of nobody who read basic modern philosophical classics by Richard Weaver, Lionel Trilling, Leo Strauss, or Eric Voegelin. There was the moral philosophy of Alasdair MacIntyre and Charles Taylor because of the Center for Ethics and Culture, but preeminent theologians like Stanley Hauerhaus-who were once on the faculty-were forced to other institutions like Duke. The faculty at ND are very much of the same mode of continental Leftism dominant in the Ivies, and only the philosophy department-where medievalism and Thomism are in place-differs in this capacity. But the law school also has the other Bradley, Rice, and the most singularly important professor at Notre Dame: John Finnis.
 
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the_voidoid

Guest
well, ND is obviously more liberal than i had actually imagined. i will admit that i put very little effort into joining campus organizations or the like; if i wasn't chained to the drafting board in bond hall or manning the computer lab i was playing punk rock or at club or engaged in other more nefarious activities. what were we talking about again??

seriously, though, i appreciate your insight into this subject. i never put much thought into the various curriculum/faculty beyond our major and my opinions are solely based on general observation of campus life during my time there...
 
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Rip Rap

Guest
the_voidoid said:
seriously, though, i appreciate your insight into this subject. i never put much thought into the various curriculum/faculty beyond our major and my opinions are solely based on general observation of campus life during my time there...

You know, even our own curriculum was fairly liberal. The apologetics of New Urbanism are rooted in a socialist economic worldview, and almost everybody on the faculty are Europhiles. For all their talk of tradition, they hated the school's athletic identity and (with the exception of Stroik and Smith) placed almost no concern on the school's religious heritage. Fr. Bullene did assign us Neil Postman and C. S. Lewis readings our freshman year, but even the field trips in Italy did not provide adequate time for mass attendance, which I took to be a fairly damning testimony of the school's priorities.
 
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