No, you can't get a great education from most state universities

[magogian]

On IE and other ND football boards, the ND educational experience is compared ad nauseam with other schools, especially state schools. We cite facts, figures, and rankings. But I thought personal experience might be helpful as well.

Background: I have a B.S. from FSU and a J.D. from ND.

In my opinion, it is extremely difficult to get a "great" education from an average state school because the school is simply not set up to provide such an education. Rather, such states schools are designed provide a huge numbers of students with an education ranging from mediocre to decent. If you apply yourself and participate in the few harder and more selective degree programs and participate in honors programs, etc., you can get a good education. But anything past that is very difficult, if not impossible, because the average state school is simply not set up to provide such an education.

From FSU, I graduated with a double-major, completed the honors program, and had a 3.94 GPA. It was a breeze. I'm not super smart; it was just super easy. I was in a fraternity and involved in student government and multiple clubs. And had plenty of time to party, lift 2 hours a day (do you even lift bro?), and play games. Classes or homework rarely interfered. I even participated in special independent study classes with some of the better professors because the normal classes were not challenging.

 

[magogian]

Continued:

In my ND law school class, about 1/4th had obtained their undergrad degree from ND . Most of my other classmates came from Ivy league schools. From these classmates, especially the ND grads, our undergrad experiences were completely different. They were actually challenged. It actually took hard work to do well. I felt they were (for the most part) better trained and equipped out of undergrad than I was (I still did great in law school, but that is a different story).

One of the biggest differences is the quality of your classmates. If you took an FSU class and dropped them into an equivalent ND class, I have little doubt that the average FSU student would probably fail. So, naturally, the FSU class is structured around that average FSU student, while the ND class is structured around the average ND student. That difference is critical and very consequential.

Don't me wrong. I loved my time at FSU. But, no, you really can't get a "great" education at your average state school. The schools are simply not designed for it. If you do, it is the exception, not the rule.

Any others with relevant personal experiences?

(I had to break this into two posts because IE kept messing up otherwise.)

 

[Classic Irish]

Continued:

In my ND law school class, about 1/4th had obtained their undergrad degree from ND . Most of my other classmates came from Ivy league schools. From these classmates, especially the ND grads, our undergrad experiences were completely different. They were actually challenged. It actually took hard work to do well. I felt they were (for the most part) better trained and equipped out of undergrad than I was (I still did great in law school, but that is a different story).

One of the biggest differences is the quality of your classmates. If you took an FSU class and dropped them into an equivalent ND class, I have little doubt that the average FSU student would probably fail. So, naturally, the FSU class is structured around that average FSU student, while the ND class is structured around the average ND student. That difference is critical and very consequential.

Don't me wrong. I loved my time at FSU. But, no, you really can't get a "great" education at your average state school. The schools are simply not designed for it. If you do, it is the exception, not the rule.

Any others with relevant personal experiences?

(I had to break this into two posts because IE kept messing up otherwise.)

Having graduated from ND and then teaching at two large state schools (both in the Big Ten) as well as a major private Catholic university, I completely agree. Someone on this board said it recently: to suggest that you can get an outstanding education anywhere if you apply yourself implies that there are essentially no differences between schools---which, in my experience, is totally false.

 

[greyhammer90]

Continued:

In my ND law school class, about 1/4th had obtained their undergrad degree from ND . Most of my other classmates came from Ivy league schools. From these classmates, especially the ND grads, our undergrad experiences were completely different. They were actually challenged. It actually took hard work to do well. I felt they were (for the most part) better trained and equipped out of undergrad than I was (I still did great in law school, but that is a different story).

One of the biggest differences is the quality of your classmates. If you took an FSU class and dropped them into an equivalent ND class, I have little doubt that the average FSU student would probably fail. So, naturally, the FSU class is structured around that average FSU student, while the ND class is structured around the average ND student. That difference is critical and very consequential.

Don't me wrong. I loved my time at FSU. But, no, yosu really can't get a "great" education at your average state school. The schools are simply not designed for it. If you do, it is the exception, not the rule.

Any others with relevant personal experiences?

(I had to break this into two posts because IE kept messing up otherwise.)

How do you know about the quality of classmates in ND's undergrad courses? You only went there for law school. It's a top 30 law school, so yeah the classmates are going to be much, much better compared to FSU undergrad.

 

[magogian]

How do you know about the quality of classmates in ND's undergrad courses? You only went there for law school. It's a top 30 law school, so yeah the classmates are going to be much, much better compared to FSU undergrad.

As I said, about 1/4 of my law school class graduated from ND undergrad.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

As I said, about 1/4 of my law school class graduated from ND undergrad.

That wasn't the question. The question is how do you know of the quality of their undergrad classes? You didn't go to ND for undergrad and presumably never sat in on any classes. The law students at NDLS from ND probably aren't a representative sample of ND students.

 

[greyhammer90]

As I said, about 1/4 of my law school class graduated from ND undergrad.

Again that's pretty self selecting. One fourth of my UGA law school class, also a top thirty law school, went to UGA. If I judged UGA undergrad by the classmates I know who come in at 7:30 AM and leave after 9 most nights, I'd think UGA undergrad was amazing.

 

[yankeeND]

Having graduated from ND and then teaching at two large state schools (both in the Big Ten) as well as a major private Catholic university, I completely agree. Someone on this board said it recently: to suggest that you can get an outstanding education anywhere if you apply yourself implies that there are essentially no differences between schools---which, in my experience, is totally false.

That was me and it doesn't imply anything. You guys really are something else. Never did I say that one cannot be better, but putting forth the effort at any accredited college deserves recognition. This is the exact attitude that I am talking about. It comes off to me as arrogant as hell. So that ND degree was good enough to get you a job at one of those lowly Big Ten schools but not the degree you were serving to the students. We will continue to round and round on this if you would like, but saying you got a job at one of the so called lesser schools really should make you stop and think a little bit.

 

[magogian]

That wasn't the question. The question is how do you know of the quality of their undergrad classes? You didn't go to ND for undergrad and presumably never sat in on any classes.

He asked about the quality of classmates at ND.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

He asked about the quality of classmates at ND.

No he didn't. He asked about the quality of their undergrad classes and classmates.

How do you know about the quality of classmates in ND's undergrad courses? You only went there for law school. It's a top 30 law school, so yeah the classmates are going to be much, much better compared to FSU undergrad.

 

[magogian]

Again that's pretty self selecting. One fourth of my UGA law school class, also a top thirty law school, went to UGA. If I judged UGA undergrad by the classmates I know who come in at 7:30 AM and leave after 9 most nights, I'd think UGA undergrad was amazing.

Most of the ND grads in my law school class weren't the top kids in their undergrad ND class, closer to the average.

The top undergrads at ND that choose law school typically go to top law schools.

 

[D-BOE34]

I don't know a single person who graduated from a school on the same level as ND. I do know a ton of very successful people who are making plenty of money and live comfortable lives. An education is better than no education.

 

[magogian]

Again, this is less about statistics, etc. and more about relevant personal experiences.

So, I'm curious to hear from others.

 

[ryno 24]

I agree with both Magogian and Kanye. First , the average ND undergrad student is better than pretty much every state school other than Michigan UVA UCLA and Cal. Therefore more difficult classes because your competing with better students.

On the other hand, Law school students are above the average students in a class. Therefore you comparing ND law students to the average undergrad student at ND is not a good comparison.

 

[greyhammer90]

Most of the ND grads in my law school class weren't the top kids in their undergrad ND class, closer to the average.

The top undergrads at ND that choose law school typically go to top law schools.

That's it? How does that support your assertion that an average FSU student would fail an average ND class?

This is the most embarrassing back-pat of a post I've seen on here in awhile. You claim most of your fellow alumni are so dumb they'd fail at any ND class, but that at the same time FSU was so easy for you that you just breezed through it. Good for you man. Way to escape those filthy averages through admittedly zero effort. Then you use embarrassingly bad logic for a law school graduate to support claims about NDs undergrad experience that you have no evidence of.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Again, this is less about statistics, etc. and more about relevant personal experiences.

So, I'm curious to hear from others.

This is less about verifiable things and more about competing anecdotes that won't actually get to the bottom of the matter.

Also, I would prefer your anecdotes support my conclusion.

 

[magogian]

That's it? How does that support your assertion that an average FSU student would fail an average ND class?

This is the most embarrassing back-pat of a post I've seen on here in awhile. You claim most of your fellow alumni are so dumb they'd fail at any ND class, but that at the same time FSU was so easy for you that you just breezed through it. Good for you man. Way to escape those filthy averages through admittedly zero effort. Then you use embarrassingly bad logic for a law school graduate to support claims about NDs undergrad experience that you have no evidence of.

You don't get it. That's fine.

 

[greyhammer90]

You don't get it. That's fine.

I hope they taught you that response at FSU, because it's lazy.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

I hope they taught you that response at FSU, because it's lazy.

And, don't forget, condescending.

 

[STLDomer]

I'm guessing this thread is also in relation to comments from prospects like a Coney and Barnett about Florida and Alabama.

 

[NDRock]

ND can't be that hard, heck 99% of the football players graduate

 

[Old Man Mike]

Actually, I believe that the original hypothetical is backwards.

Of course any dedicated student can get a great education at any decent college [ not "great" ... how's that measured on undergraduate teaching excellence anyway?]. We profs aren't really cast off mediocrities when it comes to knowing things about our central training --- we actually have something to offer. [as you might guess, this line of "thinking" considerably pisses me off since I "only" taught at Western Michigan and was therefore inferior as a teacher --- the Ivy bastards can bring it on.]

... OK. Calm down....

The legitimate issue is can the typical undergraduate get a lousy education and still graduate [even with a "phony/unearned" high GPA]? THAT'S what separates Notre Dame from most of these other schools.

Since I know WMU and ND, I'll say with a tiny bit of assurance that you could not dog it at ND and expect to graduate, and even if you were a genius who didn't apply oneself, your GPA would definitely show it. Whereas at WMU it depended upon the major, STRONGLY. If you were an OT or a Chem major, or "even" in my own ENVS program, you were either going to make a true effort, really learn something, or you were out. However if you wanted to just "party hard" or whatever other waste of life one had decided [not in mind, more "in gonad"], then you could graduate as a jumped-up jerk-idiot with an essentially fake credential and no learned skills --- sometimes even incapable of constructing orderly sentences and well-spelt words.

My emotional two cents..... still says: Go to ND, young athletes, and remove the temptation to remain an ignorant uneducated fool.

 

[Bluto]

Depends on which State and what programs. For the money and return on investment the UC and Cal State Schools are hard to beat.

At the California State school I went to for my masters about a third of the people originally enrolled in the program dropped out because it was too hard.

 

[magogian]

Actually, I believe that the original hypothetical is backwards.

Of course any dedicated student can get a great education at any decent college [ not "great" ... how's that measured on undergraduate teaching excellence anyway?]. We profs aren't really cast off mediocrities when it comes to knowing things about our central training --- we actually have something to offer. [as you might guess, this line of "thinking" considerably pisses me off since I "only" taught at Western Michigan and was therefore inferior as a teacher --- the Ivy bastards can bring it on.]

... OK. Calm down....

The legitimate issue is can the typical undergraduate get a lousy education and still graduate [even with a "phony/unearned" high GPA]? THAT'S what separates Notre Dame from most of these other schools.

Since I know WMU and ND, I'll say with a tiny bit of assurance that you could not dog it at ND and expect to graduate, and even if you were a genius who didn't apply oneself, your GPA would definitely show it. Whereas at WMU it depended upon the major, STRONGLY. If you were an OT or a Chem major, or "even" in my own ENVS program, you were either going to make a true effort, really learn something, or you were out. However if you wanted to just "party hard" or whatever other waste of life one had decided [not in mind, more "in gonad"], then you could graduate as a jumped-up jerk-idiot with an essentially fake credential and no learned skills --- sometimes even incapable of constructing orderly sentences and well-spelt words.

My emotional two cents..... still says: Go to ND, young athletes, and remove the temptation to remain an ignorant uneducated fool.

I appreciate these points.

Some of our disagreement is definitional (in part because I failed to define terms). I think it is very difficult, if not impossible, for a student to get an education at many/most state schools that is on par with the average education a student would receive at ND or an Ivy league (i.e. "great education"), regardless of how hard the student works at the state school.

Of course, most people don't need a "great" education. I get that. But there are real differences. Pretending there aren't such educational differences won't make them go away.

Finally, I agree with your main point. Many kids can graduate with a terrible education (even from some name brand institutions). And this is particularly endemic for athletes. ND is one of the few institutions where even the athletes have to earn their degree.

But I'm trying to hit a different issue with this thread.

 

[Buster Bluth]

This thread is A+ stuff.

 

[Classic Irish]

That was me and it doesn't imply anything. You guys really are something else. Never did I say that one cannot be better, but putting forth the effort at any accredited college deserves recognition. This is the exact attitude that I am talking about. It comes off to me as arrogant as hell. So that ND degree was good enough to get you a job at one of those lowly Big Ten schools but not the degree you were serving to the students. We will continue to round and round on this if you would like, but saying you got a job at one of the so called lesser schools really should make you stop and think a little bit.

No, it wasn't you. I believe it may have been Whiskey actually. I believe his original point was that saying that one can get an excellent education anywhere suggests that all universities are the same. And I agree with that: not all universities are the same. I say this based on my experience as an undergrad at ND, in grad school, and as a professor in the Big Ten and at a major private and prestigious Catholic university.

The point you make which I've bolded makes absolutely no sense. If I'm understanding what you're attempting to say: first, I went to ND for my undergrad; I went elsewhere for my PhD. Second, I didn't just teach undergrads at those Big Ten schools---I also taught grad students. Third, I also taught at a private top 20 university as well. So, I'm not sure what your point is.

As for your point about deserving recognition: I totally agree. I was not aware that I disparaged those who put in hard work academically. If you took that as such, it was not intended. But a large percentage of the students I taught at those Big Ten schools were not serious students---they just wanted a piece of paper after four or five years. And if they could have acquired that piece of paper without learning anything, they would have been completely content with that. The same cannot be said at ND or the other university where I taught.

 

[IrishLax]

That's it? How does that support your assertion that an average FSU student would fail an average ND class?

This is the most embarrassing back-pat of a post I've seen on here in awhile. You claim most of your fellow alumni are so dumb they'd fail at any ND class, but that at the same time FSU was so easy for you that you just breezed through it. Good for you man. Way to escape those filthy averages through admittedly zero effort. Then you use embarrassingly bad logic for a law school graduate to support claims about NDs undergrad experience that you have no evidence of.

It's funny that FSU is the example here and you're making all these assertions that Magogian doesn't know what he's talking about, when he actually happens to be 100% correct per someone who did go to both schools that I knew through engineering at ND.

The kid's name was Damien and he was an orthodox Jew that I think had a couple Observer articles written on him while we were in school and some others might know him. He transferred from FSU because, in his words, he was getting straight As doing no work and partying all the time. As such, his grandparents* knew he wasn't getting a good education nor applying himself and insisted that he try to transfer to a better school. Somehow, some way that resulted in him ending up at Notre Dame.

Really cool kid and he was a life saver in our Spain summer program because he could speak Spanish 10x better than the rest of us. He said unequivocally that the education at ND was much more strenuous and demanding than FSU. It wasn't even close.

I know we have some other engineers on this board, curious if anyone else remembers who I'm talking about.

*I think he was living with his grandparents in Florida, but I could be remembering that detail wrong. Been awhile.

----

Unrelated... IMO, people who attest that the educational quality at large state schools compares to ND at all are either ignorant of how most large state schools are run or are ignorant of how things are done at ND. The one exception to this is engineering or science at a lot of places. It's shocking how strong certain programs are at otherwise unassuming schools like Kansas State or North Carolina State.

But comparing/contrasting with my little brother who just graduated from PSU is crazy. We had completely different experiences. I had maybe a couple large lecture hall classes my entire time at ND, most classes had less than 30 people, attendance was strongly emphasized, and many teachers went FAR above and beyond to make sure you got the best learning experience you could... it was also hyper competitive with good grades borderline impossible to come by in some classes. My brother had almost all of his classes taught in large lectures halls or online (seriously, PSU made a serious push to get students out of the classroom and into online classes because it cost them less $$), almost no teachers knew the names of students or cared remotely if they passed or failed... and very few teachers were actual professors, no attendance was taken in the vast majority of classes, and only certain classes were remotely competitive.

 

[greyhammer90]

It's funny that FSU is the example here and you're making all these assertions that Magogian doesn't know what he's talking about, when he actually happens to be 100% correct per someone who did go to both schools that I knew through engineering at ND.

The kid's name was Damien and he was an orthodox Jew that I think had a couple Observer articles written on him while we were in school and some others might know him. He transferred from FSU because, in his words, he was getting straight As doing no work and partying all the time. As such, his grandparents* knew he wasn't getting a good education nor applying himself and insisted that he try to transfer to a better school. Somehow, some way that resulted in him ending up at Notre Dame.

Really cool kid and he was a life saver in our Spain summer program because he could speak Spanish 10x better than the rest of us. He said unequivocally that the education at ND was much more strenuous and demanding than FSU. It wasn't even close.

I know we have some other engineers on this board, curious if anyone else remembers who I'm talking about.

*I think he was living with his grandparents in Florida, but I could be remembering that detail wrong. Been awhile.

----

Unrelated... IMO, people who attest that the educational quality at large state schools compares to ND at all are either ignorant of how most large state schools are run or are ignorant of how things are done at ND. The one exception to this is engineering or science at a lot of places. It's shocking how strong certain programs are at otherwise unassuming schools like Kansas State or North Carolina State.

But comparing/contrasting with my little brother who just graduated from PSU is crazy. We had completely different experiences. I had maybe a couple large lecture hall classes my entire time at ND, most classes had less than 30 people, attendance was strongly emphasized, and many teachers went FAR above and beyond to make sure you got the best learning experience you could... it was also hyper competitive with good grades borderline impossible to come by in some classes. My brother had almost all of his classes taught in large lectures halls or online (seriously, PSU made a serious push to get students out of the classroom and into online classes because it cost them less $$), almost no teachers knew the names of students or cared remotely if they passed or failed... and very few teachers were actual professors, no attendance was taken in the vast majority of classes, and only certain classes were remotely competitive.

Where did I say he was right or wrong? I simply asked him how he could possibly know. If he had described his experience as you did your friend we wouldn't have had an issue, but he was comparing ND students who had made the grade to attend ND Law with random FSU ungrads taking god knows what. No shit one of those groups is going to be stronger than another.

I'm also not suggesting that ND and FSU are on the same level academically. But saying that the average student at FSU is going to fail? That's just hyperbolic bullshit. Also, It seems to me that NDs support system, which you just said went above and beyond, would try to prevent this.

 

[IrishLax]

Where did I say he was right or wrong? I simply asked him how he could possibly know. If he had described his experience as you did your friend we wouldn't have had an issue, but he was comparing ND students who had made the grade to attend ND Law with random FSU ungrads taking god knows what. No shit one of those groups is going to be stronger than another.

I'm also not suggesting that ND and FSU are on the same level academically. But saying that the average student at FSU is going to fail? That's just hyperbolic bullshit. Also, It seems to me that NDs support system, which you just said went above and beyond, would try to prevent this.

OK fair point my bad did not read close enough. Skimmed the first 20 posts.

 

[irish1958]

I found that the top ten medical school I went to was way easier than pre-med at ND, and I was much better prepared for the rigor and information blizzard than my classmates.
I also attended a Jesuit preparatory high school, which was harder than ND.