ND Tuition Hacks Me Off

[guff]

This is a rant that will offend some of you.

I was researching college tuition prices - I have a 4 year old daughter, it’s never too early to start. I knew ND was an expensive ticket but $42,000/year. WTF! I was absolutely flattened and then outraged. I am solidly middle class in every way imaginable. My family is the absolute portrait of the America Dream - every basic need comfortably fulfilled and most wants and desires meet to a satisfactory degree. And I couldn’t touch 42 grand per year with a ten foot pole (Actually it will be closer to $65,000/yr given a 3% annualized tuition increase. That’s more than a quarter of million dollars by graduation, more than A-Rod will get paid in over the course of his contract and his 10 year contract is obscene).

How is that kind of figure in line with the concept of Catholic charity? For comparison sake, I researched other like sized Catholic schools. Boston College, St. John’s and Loyola Chicago all have tuition around $23,000 give or take. Depaul comes in at around $33,000. Now these numbers are by no means cheap but they are more competitive with other secular private schools - which is all I ask.

To broaden my comparison I went looking to the Ivies. And this is where I found comparable tuition rates. Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth and Cornell all have tuition rates comparable to ND’s. Harvard is north of $44,000 and Cornell has a blue light special price of $41,800. The others fall in between.

So what gives? With all due respect to the alums that visit this board an ND education isn’t $20,000 better than a St. John’s education.

Why would ND seek to associate itself in terms of tuition with schools viewed by most as elitist and unattainable? I can’t believe that the break even price for a ND education is $42,000 when other similar schools are doing it for much less in areas with much higher costs of living (Chicago, New York, Boston). And these schools don’t have even close to ND’s revenue stream. ND’s alums are to their credit some of the most generous in the country. And some give the schools millions of dollars just to have their name on the side of a building.

I know I will hear someone point out ND’s generous grants, scholarships and other financial aid packages. That’s fine and dandy but the other schools are doing the same thing at almost half the starting price.

If a suburban white girl from a family with the means to save for her college can’t afford ND then how can an inner city black girl from a destitute family even conceive of the notion?

Catholic charity, $42,000 per pupil? I’m officially hacked off.

 

[KMac151993]

If a suburban white girl from a family with the means to save for her college can’t afford ND then how can an inner city black girl from a destitute family even conceive of the notion?

Thats the sad thing...the minority will get the money from the school and the white girl will be denined acceptance....sad fact but true, happened to me.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

If a suburban white girl from a family with the means to save for her college can’t afford ND then how can an inner city black girl from a destitute family even conceive of the notion?

Catholic charity, $42,000 per pupil? I’m officially hacked off.

It's ok man, you are right in many ways.

The people who have the toughest time affording top schools are those who are solidly middle class (race is irrelevant). The people at the other two ends have the easiest time over all.

That being said, my folks put me and my sisters through "elite" schools. They wound up with about $120,000 in debts (my youngest sister graduated in 2001). Thankfully, my parents are better off than the average person.

To this day, I am still paying off my ND grad school loans. I have about $25,000 left on them...with only 8.5 years to go. ;-)

 

[Óglaigh_na_hÉireann]

Well, for them to survive as Catholic schools they have to be expensive. There probably isn't a nationally accredited Catholic school that isn't. They'll never have the resources that public schools are given. But yes, I agree, ND is too expensive.

That's the main reason why I'm keeping my distance from Catholic schools and it's the reason why I gave up on Notre Dame shortly after my freshman year in high school began.

The only Catholic schools I'm considering are Depaul and the Catholic University of America.. both are very expensive and I'll probably only be allowed to go to either if they give me scholarship money.

For the most part, though, I'm looking at cheap southern schools. I figure you can get a great education anywhere; there are plenty of people who have gotten more out of their 4 years at Auburn, Ole Miss, Alabama and Tennessee than a Notre Dame student that decided not to work hard there. (if Auburn accepts, I'll probably end up there, even if Steve Spurrier has something to say about it)

Part of me thinks the Notre Dame dream isn't meant to be lived, anyway.

 

[Irish Envy]

To be honest, it doesn't matter where you go. The only thing that matters is that you work hard while you're there, continue to challenge yourself and soak up everything.

You can get a quality education anywhere, some places just have more resources to offer prospective students then others can/do.

 

[mirertobrooks]

If you aren't already you need to start saving today in a 529 education plan or a Coverdall IRA, the contributions aren't tax deductible but the distributions are tax free. The funds must be used for higher education however. Pass on the new motercycle, and start saving because considering inflation, you're looking at more like 60 dimes 15 years from now.

 

[punishment]

Thats the sad thing...the minority will get the money from the school and the white girl will be denined acceptance....sad fact but true, happened to me.

The sad thing, is that people believe this myth. If it were true, why are the numbers of minority students compared to white students so lopsided still.

Its funny that when a black person says "I didn't get this job because I'm black," people make this out to be an excuse for his failures. But, people are willing to accept as valid the excuse that "I didn't get into X college because I'm white."

And if its true that minorities get all this money, then please provide me the contact info of this money place so that I can reclaim my check, because by the time I was done with ND I was $140,000 in debt.

 

[KMac151993]

The sad thing, is that people believe this myth. If it were true, why are the numbers of minority students compared to white students so lopsided still.

Its funny that when a black person says "I didn't get this job because I'm black," people make this out to be an excuse for his failures. But, people are willing to accept as valid the excuse that "I didn't get into X college because I'm white."

And if its true that minorities get all this money, then please provide me the contact info of this money place so that I can reclaim my check, because by the time I was done with ND I was $140,000 in debt.

Ok then explain how a kid I personally know who's a minority, we joke about it all the time, got accepted into ND with a lower SAT and GPA then I had as well as less community involvement....now granted his parents had more money but please explain that, when you can do that then I will believe you. I am not bitching because I absolutly love were I ended up but the sad truth in today's society is that the only minority now is the white middle class American male.

 

[LuckoftheIrish86]

42k a year?

wow.

 

[Óglaigh_na_hÉireann]

The sad thing, is that people believe this myth. If it were true, why are the numbers of minority students compared to white students so lopsided still.

Well it is definitely true that minority students have a lot going for them where admissions are concerned, but I don't think they have an easier time where finances are concerned.

One of my friends is Jewish and he's headed for the University of South Carolina this fall. He put it bluntly in saying that looking at his senior class you could definitely see where the minority status set even average, minority students apart from the rest of the class.

There's even an acronym colleges use: URM - under-represented minority. So it varies by school; if you're looking into say the University of Washington, being an asian won't help you much (the school is probably 1/3 Asian). But if you're black and an average student, you'll probably have a better chance than a middle class white or asian kid whose test scores and GPA are a moderate amount higher.

This isn't really related, but I found it interesting. Gender matters most at some schools. I could practically walk into American University right now because the school is 66% female and AU is desperate for male students to even things out. The same is true of Catholic University which is 60% female.

 

[punishment]

Ok then explain how a kid I personally know who's a minority, we joke about it all the time, got accepted into ND with a lower SAT and GPA then I had as well as less community involvement....now granted his parents had more money but please explain that, when you can do that then I will believe you. I am not bitching because I absolutly love were I ended up but the sad truth in today's society is that the only minority now is the white middle class American male.

I'm still trying to find an explanation as to how a white guy I went to law school with had a lower LSAT score than me, and a 3.3 GPA to my 3.62, and he still got in with a 50% scholarship that I didn't qualify for, and his family was better off financially than mine.

But let me ask. A couple of years ago, a famous president gave a speech at a Nex Mexico school commencement, and he said "for those of you who got As, I commend you, for those of you who got Cs, you too can become president." You all know who this president is, and he got into Yale, while bragging about getting Cs. Did you get upset at that? Did that just burn a fire in your belly? Or did you not care, or did you think it was funny?

I think that people are not necessarily bothered by somebody less qualified than them getting into a school they didn't get into, but people are bothered by a less qualified minority getting into a school that they didn't get into.

A white male with a 4.0 out of high school who is denied admission to Yale, will raise hell if a black person with a 3.8 gets in. But if a rich, white male with a 2.2 gets in, nobody says a word. Why?

ND is 85% white. I don't know what the number is if you eliminate the athletes, but I would imagine it is safe to assume the percentage of white students increases.

People are up in arms because ND has a student body that is 15% minority!?

 

[punishment]

Well it is definitely true that minority students have a lot going for them where admissions are concerned, but I don't think they have an easier time where finances are concerned.

One of my friends is Jewish and he's headed for the University of South Carolina this fall. He put it bluntly in saying that looking at his senior class you could definitely see where the minority status set even average, minority students apart from the rest of the class.

There's even an acronym colleges use: URM - under-represented minority. So it varies by school; if you're looking into say the University of Washington, being an asian won't help you much (the school is probably 1/3 Asian). But if you're black and an average student, you'll probably have a better chance than a middle class white or asian kid whose test scores and GPA are a moderate amount higher.

This isn't really related, but I found it interesting. Gender matters most at some schools. I could practically walk into American University right now because the school is 66% female and AU is desperate for male students to even things out. The same is true of Catholic University which is 60% female.

You make great points.

 

[KMac151993]

My point just is there shouldn't be quota's on anything you shouldn't get a break if your a minority or a woman, if everyone wants equal rights they should have to live on equal ground.

 

[punishment]

My point just is there shouldn't be quota's on anything you shouldn't get a break if your a minority or a woman, if everyone wants equal rights they should have to live on equal ground.

But that's the problem. From the beginning, we are not on equal footing. So some get out ahead.

If two people start digging a hole at the same time, but one has a shovel, the other has a spoon, who's going to get there quicker? If they both start off with shovels, then we are on equal footing, and quotas should be done away with.

If you ever run into someone from ND who did the Teach for America program, ask them if they believe that the inner city schools they began teaching at are on equal footing with whatever school they went to after their 2 year program was completed.

 

[maison bleu]

ND's tuition reflects the great demand for places and the highly limited supply of them.

 

[Óglaigh_na_hÉireann]

My point just is there shouldn't be quota's on anything you shouldn't get a break if your a minority or a woman, if everyone wants equal rights they should have to live on equal ground.

I believe very strongly in quotas and affirmative action in college admissions.


But based on class, not race.

 

[punishment]

I believe very strongly in quotas and affirmative action in college admissions.


But based on class, not race.

I believe in both, simply because minorities were denied success in certain professions for a long time.

But, class should be a much, much higher factor than race. For example, I don't think that affirmative action should apply to my kids the way it applied to me. I grew up with a single parent in the projects, and went to high school that started off with 337 students, graduated 161, and 8 of those graduated from college, with 2 getting advanced degrees.

My kids will be at a better school, and have all the tools I didn't. So AA should not apply to them at anywhere near the level it did for me.

But in a tie-breaker situation, I am much more in favor of a white male who grew up in the projects gaining admission over a minority who grew up in a middle class or wealthy neighborhood.

 

[punishment]

ND's tuition reflects the great demand for places and the highly limited supply of them.

Now, getting back to topic of this thread...

Private school tuitions are going up at an alarming rate. 15 years ago, they were unaffordable to the lower classes. Now they are becoming unaffordable to the middle class. I would like to say this needs to change, but unless people stop applying to private schools, no change will occur.

I believe I heard that for the classes of 2008 and 2009 in California, applications to private schools had a sharp drop, while applications to the public schools increased dramatically in response.

 

[ShivaIrish]

Quick question:

What is the tax status of private schools, and does the fact that some are affiliated with a religion affect it at all?

 

[Óglaigh_na_hÉireann]

Quick question:

What is the tax status of private schools, and does the fact that some are affiliated with a religion affect it at all?

Yeah. Most private schools accept some federal funding with things like student aid, but they don't draw anywhere near the same amount of tax funding that state universities do; that's the price they pay for autonomy.

Some states subsidize the hell out of their state schools. Some Florida schools cost under $4,000 for in-state residents (I think FSU and UF are two of them).

My guess is that public schools are persuaded to further programs like business, education, engineering law, and medical related fields by the state government because those are things they want to prioritize within the state itself. And because of this, more abstract, liberal arts-type programs are probably given the back-seat because the state doesn't view those courses as important. And those are the fields private schools specialize in.

That's mostly guess-work, though.

 

[KMac151993]

I believe in both, simply because minorities were denied success in certain professions for a long time.

But thats my point so because people 100 years ago treated a group badly means that now they get special privledges. The people that suffered the injustices are now all dead and the people that caused these injustices are dead as well...so like you said back on topic all higher education today is a rip off, they know if you want it you will pay and they got ya.

 

[Óglaigh_na_hÉireann]

I think the problem with affirmative action based on race is that it's counter-productive. This will be a controversial comment by me, but I think the irony is it actually makes blacks more racist, not whites because many develop the attitude that they're owed something. And white kids, when they are growing up and are surrounded with the "Why white people are bad" education system, actually come to believe it.

I just believe people need to forget about race. Racism is dead, at least in a relative sense. It will always be around, there's no stopping it, but I think that to the point where it is an actual problem, it no longer exists. People are making an issue out of a problem that simply isn't there.

The real issue should be increasing the wealth of the lower classes. Doing that involves bettering education at the grass-roots level and turning back the criminal culture and atmosphere that develops in many, many places around the country. If you're interested in the latter problem, I suggest picking up "The Neocon Reader", which is a compilation of neoconservative-minded essays---they aren't the crazy conservatives the media has painted them as, in fact, they're more centrist than the Republican party.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I'm still trying to find an explanation as to how a white guy I went to law school with had a lower LSAT score than me, and a 3.3 GPA to my 3.62, and he still got in with a 50% scholarship that I didn't qualify for, and his family was better off financially than mine.

But let me ask. A couple of years ago, a famous president gave a speech at a Nex Mexico school commencement, and he said "for those of you who got As, I commend you, for those of you who got Cs, you too can become president." You all know who this president is, and he got into Yale, while bragging about getting Cs. Did you get upset at that? Did that just burn a fire in your belly? Or did you not care, or did you think it was funny?

I think that people are not necessarily bothered by somebody less qualified than them getting into a school they didn't get into, but people are bothered by a less qualified minority getting into a school that they didn't get into.

A white male with a 4.0 out of high school who is denied admission to Yale, will raise hell if a black person with a 3.8 gets in. But if a rich, white male with a 2.2 gets in, nobody says a word. Why?

ND is 85% white. I don't know what the number is if you eliminate the athletes, but I would imagine it is safe to assume the percentage of white students increases.

People are up in arms because ND has a student body that is 15% minority!?

Great post man...you are dead on.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I think the problem with affirmative action based on race is that it's counter-productive.

Tell that to Singapore.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

But thats my point so because people 100 years ago treated a group badly means that now they get special privledges. The people that suffered the injustices are now all dead and the people that caused these injustices are dead as well...so like you said back on topic all higher education today is a rip off, they know if you want it you will pay and they got ya.

100? Try 40. My best friend's dad was denied a back loan when he had 50% down and a job that paid $25,000/year. That was for a $15,000 house in 1960.

There are hundreds of thousands who are still alive who were denied jobs/homes/cars just because they were black... In fact, many are still working today.

 

[guff]

Quick question:

What is the tax status of private schools, and does the fact that some are affiliated with a religion affect it at all?

My understanding is that ND is tax exempt to include property taxes. $0.00 goes to the taxman.

ND's tuition reflects the great demand for places and the highly limited supply of them

So that explains why Michigan only charges a buck fifty. Sorry, had to take a shot at our Michigan friend - only because I know you can take it.

But to answer your point, while I am solidly a free market capitalist but there are some things that should operate outside of market influence and a Catholic education is one of them. The market should have no bearing on what ND charges for tuition. ND should charge the minimum it takes to operate the school without making a profit or incurring debt. I don't believe $42,000 is the minimum especially when you consider that similar schools charge considerably less.

For the sake of easy math, ND has 10,000 students paying $42,000 per year. ND takes in $420,000,000 per year. Add to that all of the licensing money the school takes in, alumni donations and other sources of revenue and we're talking about damn near half a BILLION to run the school. Half a freakin' billion.

The University of Notre Dame's charge is to educate. And that education should be available to everyone that possesses the ability suceed at Notre Dame not just those that can afford it. And it is only accessible to the few not the many.

Should a student walk away from a ND graduation with a dipolma and $100,000+ of debt when the school takes in 1/2 billion?

 

[KMac151993]

100? Try 40. My best friend's dad was denied a back loan when he had 50% down and a job that paid $25,000/year. That was for a $15,000 house in 1960.

There are hundreds of thousands who are still alive who were denied jobs/homes/cars just because they were black... In fact, many are still working today.

Ok but your best friends dad is not applying to college today...if he was then I would understand giving him a break.

 

[isotopes]

As a student at the University and a minority I think I can see both sides of all these statements. When I applied so did one of my best friends in hs, nearly identical academically and in extracurriculars. I got in, he's at Dayton. Girlfriend, nearly the same again, she's at Illinois State. I have never thought it was fair that I got in, only to realize there's many other kids there with far less merit than I.

As far as tuition goes though.... once your in the university takes care of you. Its one of the few schools I looked at that actually met the students financial needs 100%. In other words me and Martin Short's kid arent paying the same amount, but not because of a difference in race strictly because of what each family can afford.

Finally, the tuition your talking about includes room and board. There's a bunch of kids that live off campus and save several grand buy doing so

 

[34Squire34]

To be honest, it doesn't matter where you go. The only thing that matters is that you work hard while you're there, continue to challenge yourself and soak up everything.

You can get a quality education anywhere, some places just have more resources to offer prospective students then others can/do.

Svoboda, I couldn't agree more. The libraries are all filled with the same books and the teachers teach roughly the same curriculim. I'm sure Harvard has some bad profs. and I'd be willing to be even the "cheap" University down the street has a prof. or two that could challenge the most intellectual of minds.

Speaking from experience, I was accepted to ND but chose go to a small liberal arts school to save myself and my parents money (as well as try to play sports-definately not a DI athlete here). At the time I thought that maybe I was making a huge mistake. Then when it came time to go to law school, I decided to go to the best school available and soak up the loans. As a budding, young man in the legal field, I will tell you this: the occupation/life decisions I make are affected way more by my debt load, than by where I went to school.

Good luck to all of those just entering college or begining to make thier decisions!

 

[UNTITLEDPROJECT]

A-Rod makes 25.2 M. a year, for 10 years, 4 left on that contract.