Early Signing Period

irishog77

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I know this has been talked about before in college football, but I was wondering: what are the main pros and cons regarding this from the NCAA, coaches, presidents, etc? What are the arguments (genuine and not) about an early signing period? Sorry if this has been covered, but even as an avid ND fan and college football fan, I still am fairly uneducated regarding why college football can't have one...while other sports can.
 

tadman95

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I'd like to see some type of early signing period but there would be a lot of arguments both ways. Recruiting has become such a watched activity and the pressure on these kids is way beyond what many of them are prepared for.

Any early period would give some of them a respite if they so choose.
 

Whiskeyjack

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pwnt.gif

This post got BGIF'd.
 
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irishog77

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Exactly-- I don't see the drawback. If a kid knows what he wants to do, why not let him? Besides the time and money that could be saved by the universities by allowing it, it seems like it would actually be beneficial to the NCAA as well by enabling them to start okaying eligibility and clearinghouse matters. So why does the NCAA say no it?
 

ryno 24

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It is interesting all other sports have an early signing period other than football... it doesnt make sense but it makes for an interesting recruiting season and allows kids to change their mind
 

BGIF

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I know this has been talked about before in college football, but I was wondering: what are the main pros and cons regarding this from the NCAA, coaches, presidents, etc? What are the arguments (genuine and not) about an early signing period? Sorry if this has been covered, but even as an avid ND fan and college football fan, I still am fairly uneducated regarding why college football can't have one...while other sports can.

The NCAA says no because the majority of NCAA members, the school presidents, don't want it. Football has a different set of recruiting rules than other sports because of their experience and because it's the way they want it.

A number of coaches want this particularly where they have a strong in-state presence with the high school coaches like in Ohio where the HS coaches as a group are honoring Tressel this season despite his cheating scandal. He was their buddy and their scratching his back. Saban, Brown, and a number of others would get the same recognition with their state's HS coaches. So it would help the OSU's, UTX's, ALA's sign the local kids first.

For ND early signing is a disaster. Indiana is not a great HS FB arena besides having a smaller population compared with MI or OH, much less CA, FL, TX

I don't know which sports early signing besides basketball. The AAU sewer might be the reason there, I don't know. Simply what might apply to basketball, fencing, or soccer doesn't necessarily suit football because of the sheer numbers. Football takes 25 a year. Most of those other sports don't have 25 on the team.

The smaller schools in the NCAA, which predominate to the dismay of the Alabama's, want a shot of getting prospects to take an Official Visit their senior year. Early signing reduce the possibility of turning a kid's head or opening his eyes. One of the axiom's of ND recruiting is, "If we can get him on campus ... ." Others are the academic excellence, "The 40 Year Mistake"," and the alumni network, "An ND degree can get you a job anywhere." ND doesn't have the opportunity to present those with an early signing period.

Schools like ND and SU with tougher academic needs will have an even tougher time evaluating prospects academically with an early period. USC would admit a mushroom if he ran a 4.3 but look at the problem their having enrolling their 2011 class. The NCAA now requires 16 core courses which ND, SU, VU and a few others required 15 years ago. Jocks that got passed along in school because they were the Star QB don't get away with taking "Introduction to the Hand Held Calcuator for Athletes" as a substitute for Algebra II anymore. That means when they get to be seniors they're supposed to have 12 of those core courses already completed - Satisfactorily. Some of them are entering their senior year now needing half or more of those 16 core courses. Just yesterday the SEC Commissioner Slive at the SEC Media Day called for the NCAA to go into high schools and EDUCATE the administrators, coaches, and students that they need to take required courses in the 9th and 10th grade. Charlie Weis did that routinely at back in 2005. Weis worked with ND Admissions to train his assistants as what to look for in high school sophs and juniors so they could be on track to pass ND Admissions as seniors.

Early signing is a benefit to HS coaches as it allows their stars to focus on the HS team. Again a benefit to the Tressels with the strong ties to local coaches. Schools recruiting on a national basis can't possibly generate that number of relationships.

The NCAA allows 5 Officials so kids get to see a cross section of choices not just Hometown U. A kid that has already signed a LOI can't take an Official Visit. He's locked in. Look at the number of kids that switch verbals now.

As for the prospects IF they don't want to be bothered they can turn off their cell phone, change the number, use call blocking, have daddy tell the coach if you call my son a again, "I'm lodging a complaint for harassment".
 

Mr. McGibblets

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Solid responses regarding NCAA policies, such as BGIF's above, should turn an otherwise regular thread into a sticky thread.
 

irishog77

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Good stuff, BFIF. Thanks for taking the time to lay out an argument.
 

Ironman8

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Early Signing Period?

Early Signing Period?

A conversation was started by Mike Frank on the ISD members board on the subject, and I thought it was an interesting and thought-provoking topic that could generate a nice dialogue and/or debate. He pointed at that in this internet/twitter/recruiting site and board age, and the microscope and pressure these kids are under, we are likely to continue to see more and more commitments and subsequent decommitments.

This will be a problem for many teams and staff's, specifically when they are supposed to honor commitments that prospects may not take seriously or change at a moment's notice. This puts them at an obvious disadvantage, and IMO could contribute to the toxic aura permeating out of some recruiting situations.

My question is, do you believe the NCAA should step in and institute an early signing period for College Football, akin to how College Basketball does it? Why or why not? How do you think this would affect different programs, specifically ND? How many of our current commits would commit early, and how many would be hesitant to sign before seeing a game this season?

Thoughts?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Is there a downside to an early signing period? If there is, I can't think of one.

It gives recruits the freedom to well and truly shut down the recruiting circus early so they can focus on other things, and it frees up coaching staffs from having to continually recruit kids that are already "committed" to the school.

Win-win.
 

Ironman8

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Is there a downside to an early signing period? If there is, I can't think of one.

It gives recruits the freedom to well and truly shut down the recruiting circus early so they can focus on other things, and it frees up coaching staffs from having to continually recruit kids that are already "committed" to the school.

Win-win.

How about no signing day, and allowing a "commit" to sign his LOI whenever he wishes, with an opt-out clause for a coaching change and/ or significant NCAA violations?
 

BeauBenken

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I feel like if a kid didn't sign during the early signing period suddenly you would have a bunch of crazies yelling over the internet how the kid isn't a true RKG or something...
 

Whiskeyjack

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How about no signing day, and allowing a "commit" to sign his LOI whenever he wishes, with an opt-out clause for a coaching change and/ or significant NCAA violations?

An even better idea. Someone promote this man.
 

ShakeDown

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Is there a downside to an early signing period? If there is, I can't think of one.

What would you say to a recruit that may have committed to an institution in good faith, only to later find out that that institution had committed certain NCAA violations? Suppose that institution was then given a multiple year postseason ban? Would you expect that student to honor their commitment in that scenario?

Legit question... not meant to be sarcastic or argumentative.

I am trying to look at things from the student-athlete's perspective. If I signed up with someone, then was told retrospectively, "Oh sorry, we are not what we made ourselves out to be..." I would be out of there in a heartbeat.

Not sayin' an early signing period would be all bad, necessarily, but that may be one downside. Especially in today's college landscape.
 

ShakeDown

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How about no signing day, and allowing a "commit" to sign his LOI whenever he wishes, with an opt-out clause for a coaching change and/ or significant NCAA violations?

Hahaha... literally as I was typing my response, you add in a caveat that answered my question.

Love the idea.
 

BleedBlueGold

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If you create an early signing period, would you change the day that written offers can go out?

IMO, college basketball recruiting is a mess in regard to offering kids who are way too young. I'd prefer football to stay as is.
 

military_irish

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Hard to have a definitive answer. I would like it because it would not be as stressful to follow. A kid commits and more than likely will sign. Not always but I am sure they would be pressure by coaches, parents, and others.

But if you look back, ND would not have KLM because he was commited to Texas A&M for the longest time. Trevor Robinson was commited to Nebraska. TJ Jones with Stanford and the list goes on. They very well could have signed with all of those schools and ND would not have them.

Another side of it would be if Justice Hayes decided to sign then got upset, then ND would be stuck with a disgruntle recruit.

Then again the way recruiting happens would probably vastly change. Coaches philosophies would change and more recruits would hold out until the last minute.

Who knows though. There are just as many pros as there are cons to this question.
 

Rhode Irish

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If you create an early signing period, would you change the day that written offers can go out?

IMO, college basketball recruiting is a mess in regard to offering kids who are way too young. I'd prefer football to stay as is.

I kind of agree with this, but if they allowed an early signing period only for rising HS seniors in the July prior to their senior year it would not really impact the age of the players being offered.

Also, football is trending in that direction, anyway, with some players being offered after their freshmen years. It is much more difficult for freshmen to stand out to college coaches in football than in basketball, though. Less underclassmen play at the high school level, and there really isn't an equivalent to AAU where kids are playing exclusively against other kids their own age. 7-on-7's are somewhat similar, but the majority of college basketball recruiting takes place on the AAU circuit, and it just isn't that way for football at this point.
 

BGIF

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A conversation was started by Mike Frank on the ISD members board on the subject, and I thought it was an interesting and thought-provoking topic that could generate a nice dialogue and/or debate. He pointed at that in this internet/twitter/recruiting site and board age, and the microscope and pressure these kids are under, we are likely to continue to see more and more commitments and subsequent decommitments.

This will be a problem for many teams and staff's, specifically when they are supposed to honor commitments that prospects may not take seriously or change at a moment's notice. This puts them at an obvious disadvantage, and IMO could contribute to the toxic aura permeating out of some recruiting situations.

My question is, do you believe the NCAA should step in and institute an early signing period for College Football, akin to how College Basketball does it? Why or why not? How do you think this would affect different programs, specifically ND? How many of our current commits would commit early, and how many would be hesitant to sign before seeing a game this season?

Thoughts?

We discussed this 5 or 6 weeks ago in the Recruiting Forum: http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/not...ng-period.html?highlight=Early+signing+period

In that thread I posted:

The NCAA says no because the majority of NCAA members, the school presidents, don't want it. Football has a different set of recruiting rules than other sports because of their experience and because it's the way they want it.

A number of coaches want this particularly where they have a strong in-state presence with the high school coaches like in Ohio where the HS coaches as a group are honoring Tressel this season despite his cheating scandal. He was their buddy and their scratching his back. Saban, Brown, and a number of others would get the same recognition with their state's HS coaches. So it would help the OSU's, UTX's, ALA's sign the local kids first.

For ND early signing is a disaster. Indiana is not a great HS FB arena besides having a smaller population compared with MI or OH, much less CA, FL, TX

I don't know which sports early signing besides basketball. The AAU sewer might be the reason there, I don't know. Simply what might apply to basketball, fencing, or soccer doesn't necessarily suit football because of the sheer numbers. Football takes 25 a year. Most of those other sports don't have 25 on the team.

The smaller schools in the NCAA, which predominate to the dismay of the Alabama's, want a shot of getting prospects to take an Official Visit their senior year. Early signing reduce the possibility of turning a kid's head or opening his eyes. One of the axiom's of ND recruiting is, "If we can get him on campus ... ." Others are the academic excellence, "The 40 Year Mistake"," and the alumni network, "An ND degree can get you a job anywhere." ND doesn't have the opportunity to present those with an early signing period.

Schools like ND and SU with tougher academic needs will have an even tougher time evaluating prospects academically with an early period. USC would admit a mushroom if he ran a 4.3 but look at the problem their having enrolling their 2011 class. The NCAA now requires 16 core courses which ND, SU, VU and a few others required 15 years ago. Jocks that got passed along in school because they were the Star QB don't get away with taking "Introduction to the Hand Held Calcuator for Athletes" as a substitute for Algebra II anymore. That means when they get to be seniors they're supposed to have 12 of those core courses already completed - Satisfactorily. Some of them are entering their senior year now needing half or more of those 16 core courses. Just yesterday the SEC Commissioner Slive at the SEC Media Day called for the NCAA to go into high schools and EDUCATE the administrators, coaches, and students that they need to take required courses in the 9th and 10th grade. Charlie Weis did that routinely at back in 2005. Weis worked with ND Admissions to train his assistants as what to look for in high school sophs and juniors so they could be on track to pass ND Admissions as seniors.

Early signing is a benefit to HS coaches as it allows their stars to focus on the HS team. Again a benefit to the Tressels with the strong ties to local coaches. Schools recruiting on a national basis can't possibly generate that number of relationships.

The NCAA allows 5 Officials so kids get to see a cross section of choices not just Hometown U. A kid that has already signed a LOI can't take an Official Visit. He's locked in. Look at the number of kids that switch verbals now.

As for the prospects IF they don't want to be bothered they can turn off their cell phone, change the number, use call blocking, have daddy tell the coach if you call my son a again, "I'm lodging a complaint for harassment".


Mr.McGibblets suggested that thread become a Sticky as it is a frequent topic.

Can one of the mods combine these two thread and make it a Sticky in the Recruiting Forum rather than Other College Football? Thanks.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Sounds great, but I'd feel bad for the 30+ kids that signed early with Bama.

Imagine sticking by the Tide for an entire recruiting cycle then finding out you've been "grey-shirted" after being promised to play because you are the #2 RB recruit in the nation, and they just happened to snag the #1 a few weeks after you.
 

Ironman8

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BGIF

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Sounds great, but I'd feel bad for the 30+ kids that signed early with Bama.

Imagine sticking by the Tide for an entire recruiting cycle then finding out you've been "grey-shirted" after being promised to play because you are the #2 RB recruit in the nation, and they just happened to snag the #1 a few weeks after you.

They can't do that in the SEC anymore by conference rule.
 

IrishSteelhead

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They can't do that in the SEC anymore by conference rule.

I know, but they definitely still treat scholarships as a one year committment, and "trim the fat" every off-season (grey-shirting non-productive players for no legitimate reason) to stay at 85. Scumbags.....
 
K

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I've gone back and forth on this, but love to hear Shaw's comments. I really admire him.

Stanford Cardinals coach David Shaw strongly opposed to early signing day - ESPN

"On top of that -- and I'll be honest here, which is rare for a football coach in a setting like this -- but we have a lot of kids that don't know if they're going to get into school until after that early signing day," Shaw said. "So we're going to punish the academic schools just because coaches don't want a kid to switch their commitment?


"That's a kid we never would have gotten because someone would have pressured him into forcing him to sign some place because they say, 'You don't know if you're getting into Stanford so you got to sign with us,' " Shaw said. "I don't think these kids should be pressured into decisions, and that's what this is all about."
 
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IrishLax

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I've gone back and forth on this, but love to hear Shaw's comments. I really admire him.

Stanford Cardinals coach David Shaw strongly opposed to early signing day - ESPN

"On top of that -- and I'll be honest here, which is rare for a football coach in a setting like this -- but we have a lot of kids that don't know if they're going to get into school until after that early signing day," Shaw said. "So we're going to punish the academic schools just because coaches don't want a kid to switch their commitment?


"That's a kid we never would have gotten because someone would have pressured him into forcing him to sign some place because they say, 'You don't know if you're getting into Stanford so you got to sign with us,' " Shaw said. "I don't think these kids should be pressured into decisions, and that's what this is all about."

Old, but this is truly just him being a Grade A whiner per usual. There is downside FOR HIM... there is absolutely no tangible downside for the athletes except for the "what if they change their mind" game... which is largely bunk. Virtually every other sport has this and it works fine, but it won't for football?

It hurts schools like Stanford (and really all Blue Blood schools that win more than they lose later in the cycle) but it is better for athletes for many obvious reasons, and will curb a large portion of the "BS" associated with recruiting. Not really any good reason not to give kids this option except to protect power schools.
 

Huntr

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>A committee has formally recommended Dec. 16 early signing period for football, per <a href="https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs">@dennisdoddcbs</a>. Vote this summer. <a href="http://t.co/8QklYkJeDE">http://t.co/8QklYkJeDE</a></p>— Stewart Mandel (@slmandel) <a href="https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/557258317102194689">January 19, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

ND NYC

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>A committee has formally recommended Dec. 16 early signing period for football, per <a href="https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs">@dennisdoddcbs</a>. Vote this summer. <a href="http://t.co/8QklYkJeDE">http://t.co/8QklYkJeDE</a></p>— Stewart Mandel (@slmandel) <a href="https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/557258317102194689">January 19, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

curious how this one goes...FWIW I wouldn't exactly call Dec 16 "early" . "early" to me is summer prior to senior seasons. (august time frame)
 

Bishop2b5

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A lot of kids know where they want to go, want to get it over with early (6-12 months before NSD), and want to spend their senior season focused on football, not being bombarded with calls & letters and all the stress that goes along with being recruited 24/7 by countless schools. I can see why they'd want an early signing period so they could just be done with it.

I do think both the school and the recruit need some protection with the process though. If they enact an early signing period, I'd like to see it be a binding commitment for both parties, with the only exceptions being if a recruit runs into serious academic or behavior issues, the HC of the school he signs with leaves, or the school gets into serious NCAA trouble.
 

BGIF

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4-1/2 years ago I posted Early Signing will hurt ND. The SU coach gets it.

4-1/2 years ago I posted Early Signing will hurt ND. The SU coach gets it.

Ealry Signing is not good for ND nor any other school that values academics.

The NCAA says no because the majority of NCAA members, the school presidents, don't want it. Football has a different set of recruiting rules than other sports because of their experience and because it's the way they want it.

A number of coaches want this particularly where they have a strong in-state presence with the high school coaches like in Ohio where the HS coaches as a group are honoring Tressel this season despite his cheating scandal. He was their buddy and their scratching his back. Saban, Brown, and a number of others would get the same recognition with their state's HS coaches. So it would help the OSU's, UTX's, ALA's sign the local kids first.

For ND early signing is a disaster. Indiana is not a great HS FB arena besides having a smaller population compared with MI or OH, much less CA, FL, TX

I don't know which sports early signing besides basketball. The AAU sewer might be the reason there, I don't know. Simply what might apply to basketball, fencing, or soccer doesn't necessarily suit football because of the sheer numbers. Football takes 25 a year. Most of those other sports don't have 25 on the team.

The smaller schools in the NCAA, which predominate to the dismay of the Alabama's, want a shot of getting prospects to take an Official Visit their senior year. Early signing reduce the possibility of turning a kid's head or opening his eyes. One of the axiom's of ND recruiting is, "If we can get him on campus ... ." Others are the academic excellence, "The 40 Year Mistake"," and the alumni network, "An ND degree can get you a job anywhere." ND doesn't have the opportunity to present those with an early signing period.

Schools like ND and SU with tougher academic needs will have an even tougher time evaluating prospects academically with an early period. USC would admit a mushroom if he ran a 4.3 but look at the problem their having enrolling their 2011 class. The NCAA now requires 16 core courses which ND, SU, VU and a few others required 15 years ago. Jocks that got passed along in school because they were the Star QB don't get away with taking "Introduction to the Hand Held Calcuator for Athletes" as a substitute for Algebra II anymore. That means when they get to be seniors they're supposed to have 12 of those core courses already completed - Satisfactorily. Some of them are entering their senior year now needing half or more of those 16 core courses. Just yesterday the SEC Commissioner Slive at the SEC Media Day called for the NCAA to go into high schools and EDUCATE the administrators, coaches, and students that they need to take required courses in the 9th and 10th grade. Charlie Weis did that routinely at back in 2005. Weis worked with ND Admissions to train his assistants as what to look for in high school sophs and juniors so they could be on track to pass ND Admissions as seniors.

Early signing is a benefit to HS coaches as it allows their stars to focus on the HS team. Again a benefit to the Tressels with the strong ties to local coaches. Schools recruiting on a national basis can't possibly generate that number of relationships.

The NCAA allows 5 Officials so kids get to see a cross section of choices not just Hometown U. A kid that has already signed a LOI can't take an Official Visit. He's locked in. Look at the number of kids that switch verbals now.

As for the prospects IF they don't want to be bothered they can turn off their cell phone, change the number, use call blocking, have daddy tell the coach if you call my son a again, "I'm lodging a complaint for harassment".
 
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