Cheat or Go Home

Blazers46

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Interesting Bleacher report article. Not sure if its been shared.

Cheat or Go Home: Inside the 'Dysfunctional Hell' of Becoming a CFB Coach | Bleacher Report

Is it possible to win in college football without cheating?

One coach who spoke to Bleacher Report was told on his first day that his quarterback might be part of a campuswide gambling ring.

One was given an academic report that showed more than 50 of his players failed to go to class during one week in November. Every player. Every class. For the entire week.

One was met by rumors of a raging drug problem in the locker room. He drug-tested the entire team during the first team meeting. More than 30 percent of the team failed.

For Bret Bielema, it was 20 players in his first 18 months at Arkansas. When he arrived in Fayetteville, the first academic report he received showed 18 players with sub-2.0 GPAs, and the Hogs were having a player arrested on average once every 68 days. Players were flunking out and getting into trouble, and no one was holding them accountable.

"It wasn't just that guys weren't going to class or doing the work," says Rutgers assistant defensive backs coach Aaron Henry, an Arkansas graduate assistant from 2013 to 2015. "They weren't even logging on to the computer system to begin the work. They wouldn't even do that. That doesn't just happen overnight. That stuff is ingrained."
 
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IrishGlory

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Unfortunately, I think that this is what our world is coming to. Sad, but true. We each hold our own values and set or morals, just how it is. But selling out is just not worth it in my opinion... period, end of story.
 

mick2

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Unfortunately, I think that this is what our world is coming to. Sad, but true. We each hold our own values and set or morals, just how it is. But selling out is just not worth it in my opinion... period, end of story.

Unfortunately, Our world has been this way, for a while now.

Also, I don't like the idea of selling out either, but whats the incentive to doing things right anymore?

Heck ND self reported a nothing scandal and got hammered for it. meanwhile schools like unc fought the ncaa about their schoolwide academic scandal and have felt nothing of the magnitude we just had to endure.

the sabans and meyers and pete carrolls are revered and held in such high esteem without any regard to the cheating we all know they do. So why do things the right way if all your going to get in return is embarrassment?

Winning cures all, winning covers all, win win win.

Do you seriously think anyone would be talking about the "character" of this irish team if we were 12-0? would anyone care about tillery's actions, or the preseason arrests? the answer is no. Perhaps deep down people would care but the joy and thrill of being a contender again would be such a blissful distraction that we would gladly sacrifice a slice of our morals for that championship.

I'm sick of ND being the nice guy, having bc and usc alums as our broadcasters, highlighting players from other teams on a home game broadcast, hearing the excitment in fuckin flutie's voice as we cough up another embarrassing loss. I'm sick of the free pass scumbags like saban and meyer get.

We simply cannot be ivy league mon-fri and sec on saturday. either lower your standards or take your ball and go somewhere else.
 

Wingman Ray

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Absolutely true 100%.

ND either unfortunately evolves or fades to nothing.

Welcome to America today. Athletes are all about them. Academics for most are a joke since the players dont really see degrees and when the do, it is in a field not worth the paper the diploma is written on.

Im not saying the ND dream of character and academics first with championship football is dead, but it is definitely on life support.
 

NDgradstudent

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I'm not sure how bad it is elsewhere, but it's not that bad at ND. At all.

I've graded the work of three ND football players in classes here. They show up to class. They do the work. They aren't generally Rhodes Scholars -expect maybe for Corey Robinson- but they aren't usually the worst students in the class. The ones I've had have usually been B/B- students.

Chesterton once said: "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." The last three ND coaches all went to other jobs after ND that do not have academic restrictions. They all failed at those jobs. As we see at UW now, it is not 'impossible' to succeed there. As for UNM and KU, other coaches (Long and Mangino) still managed better records than the ND retreads.

Until we have an elite coach, why should we be making statements like "cheat or go home"? Or "it's impossible to win at ND because of academic restrictions"?

Has the ND ideal been tried and found wanting? Or has it been found difficult and left untried?
 

NDRock

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I'm not sure how bad it is elsewhere, but it's not that bad at ND. At all.

I've graded the work of three ND football players in classes here. They show up to class. They do the work. They aren't generally Rhodes Scholars -expect maybe for Corey Robinson- but they aren't usually the worst students in the class. The ones I've had have usually been B/B- students.

Chesterton once said: "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." The last three ND coaches all went to other jobs after ND that do not have academic restrictions. They all failed at those jobs. As we see at UW now, it is not 'impossible' to succeed there. As for UNM and KU, other coaches (Long and Mangino) still managed better records than the ND retreads.

Until we have an elite coach, why should we be making statements like "cheat or go home"? Or "it's impossible to win at ND because of academic restrictions"?

Has the ND ideal been tried and found wanting? Or has it been found difficult and left untried?

Couldn't agree more.
 

IrishGlory

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Unfortunately, Our world has been this way, for a while now.

Also, I don't like the idea of selling out either, but whats the incentive to doing things right anymore?

Heck ND self reported a nothing scandal and got hammered for it. meanwhile schools like unc fought the ncaa about their schoolwide academic scandal and have felt nothing of the magnitude we just had to endure.

the sabans and meyers and pete carrolls are revered and held in such high esteem without any regard to the cheating we all know they do. So why do things the right way if all your going to get in return is embarrassment?

Winning cures all, winning covers all, win win win.

Do you seriously think anyone would be talking about the "character" of this irish team if we were 12-0? would anyone care about tillery's actions, or the preseason arrests? the answer is no. Perhaps deep down people would care but the joy and thrill of being a contender again would be such a blissful distraction that we would gladly sacrifice a slice of our morals for that championship.

I'm sick of ND being the nice guy, having bc and usc alums as our broadcasters, highlighting players from other teams on a home game broadcast, hearing the excitment in fuckin flutie's voice as we cough up another embarrassing loss. I'm sick of the free pass scumbags like saban and meyer get.

We simply cannot be ivy league mon-fri and sec on saturday. either lower your standards or take your ball and go somewhere else.

I truly think the incentive depends on the motives. What/who is being glorified?
 

mick2

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I truly think the incentive depends on the motives. What/who is being glorified?

Currently? seemingly everyone but us.

Look I understand the rationale of doing things right for the sake of doing them right, but at what point do you realize the way you are doing things are hurting you?

I don't want guys with character issues, or criminal backgrounds, and I don't want to pay kids, but I also don't want to suspend a key player in one of the biggest games for missing curfew, when the opposing team did not suspend their key player for a dui/hit and run!!!
 

Blazers46

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Absolutely true 100%.

ND either unfortunately evolves or fades to nothing.
Welcome to America today. Athletes are all about them. Academics for most are a joke since the players dont really see degrees and when the do, it is in a field not worth the paper the diploma is written on.
Im not saying the ND dream of character and academics first with championship football is dead, but it is definitely on life support.

The first bolded part is what I am afraid of. I am sure ND has evolved to some to degree to the chagrin of the administration but how far can they bend and flex to stay current? And how long can they put up with bending and flexing before they just decide they just cannot do this dog and pony show any longer. I am afraid they will turn into what Yale/Harvard/Army/Navy is now. Teams that have a great history that nobody really knows about or just old people and dead people know about.

Academics are a joke. When I talk to someone who wants players to get paid they laugh at my reply when I tell them they are getting a free education, because in reality, most are not getting any kind of education.

The one thing ND football has going for them is they generate money.
 

Legacy

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Time to divide FBS in two - a semipro and an academic-athlete. The NCAA can be reduced to a trade cartel, monitoring the semipro. The academic league teams police themselves.
 

kmoose

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I think the NCAA should go to a tiered system, not all that dissimilar to English soccer, where instead of having to maintain a certain W-L record, teams have to maintain a certain APR figure. The APR calculation might need to be adjusted. But say Tier 1 teams can practice for 40 hours a week, have extra coaches, and pay slightly larger stipends for their scholarship athletes. They also can play a full 12-14 game season, and get a percentage of the full revenue from official merchandise. They own their own brand/logo and negotiate their own licensing agreements.

Tier 2 teams can only practice 20 hours a week, have a minimum of coaches, and pay much smaller stipends. They can only play 10 games per season, and they receive commissions on only a certain amount of revenue from merchandise sales. The remaining commissions will go to charity. They still retain their own licensing authority.

Tier 3 teams can practice 20 hours a week, have a minimum of coaches, and can pay no stipends. They can play 10 games per year, and they receive a minimum commission on the revenues from merchandise sales. They forfeit their licensing autonomy, and they become part of the Tier's licensing agreement.

If a team in Tier 1 falls below the minimum APR for more than 2 or 3 years, then they are dropped down to Tier 2. Tier 2 and 3 teams must meet very high APR levels for 5 years, in order to move up a tier.

The incentive here is that actually educating athletes is incentivized by the ability to maximize revenues. Shorter seasons mean fewer home games, and less revenue. Caps on commissions from merchandise sales mean less revenue. Loss of licensing rights means less revenue. Conversely, academic success brings more and more revenue.
 

NDRock

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I think the NCAA should go to a tiered system, not all that dissimilar to English soccer, where instead of having to maintain a certain W-L record, teams have to maintain a certain APR figure. The APR calculation might need to be adjusted. But say Tier 1 teams can practice for 40 hours a week, have extra coaches, and pay slightly larger stipends for their scholarship athletes. They also can play a full 12-14 game season, and get a percentage of the full revenue from official merchandise. They own their own brand/logo and negotiate their own licensing agreements.

Tier 2 teams can only practice 20 hours a week, have a minimum of coaches, and pay much smaller stipends. They can only play 10 games per season, and they receive commissions on only a certain amount of revenue from merchandise sales. The remaining commissions will go to charity. They still retain their own licensing authority.

Tier 3 teams can practice 20 hours a week, have a minimum of coaches, and can pay no stipends. They can play 10 games per year, and they receive a minimum commission on the revenues from merchandise sales. They forfeit their licensing autonomy, and they become part of the Tier's licensing agreement.

If a team in Tier 1 falls below the minimum APR for more than 2 or 3 years, then they are dropped down to Tier 2. Tier 2 and 3 teams must meet very high APR levels for 5 years, in order to move up a tier.

The incentive here is that actually educating athletes is incentivized by the ability to maximize revenues. Shorter seasons mean fewer home games, and less revenue. Caps on commissions from merchandise sales mean less revenue. Loss of licensing rights means less revenue. Conversely, academic success brings more and more revenue.

I just think you would see more academic cheating to keep the APR high enough.
 

kmoose

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I just think you would see more academic cheating to keep the APR high enough.

Then take the money not going to commissions for the University and hire enforcement/watchdog staff that is paid by the NCAA, not the university. There's a number of considerations that would have to be addressed, but I think that the concept of incentivizing the education of athletes is the way to go.
 

NDRock

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Then take the money not going to commissions for the University and hire enforcement/watchdog staff that is paid by the NCAA, not the university. There's a number of considerations that would have to be addressed, but I think that the concept of incentivizing the education of athletes is the way to go.

I don't disagree, I'm just too jaded to think it would actually happen. Would be nice. Maybe if the NFL comes through with its developmental League some of the players who have no ability/interest in college will have another option.
 
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