A laugh and head scratch...The Wit and "Wisdom" of Ty-ger

[Domer95]

It's a bit long to post the tortured verbage here. Follow the link:

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=90797;d=this

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Gee a Ty bashing thread, shocking.

Never seen one of those on a ND board

NDNation is more obssessed with bashing Ty than the ESPN board

 

[jiggafini19]

I'm not here to rip TW, only point out the facts.

To this point, the UW staff has offered about 18 juniors and have one verbal.

Notre Dame has offered nearly 40 players already and have two verbals. But look at the offers and WHO has been offered. It isn't even close.

What's sad is that Washington State has offered less than half of TW's 18.

The philosophy in recruiting with a sense of urgency is what interests me most as these two men continue on at their respective jobs.

 

[Domer95]

Where did I bash Ty-ger? (ok, I'll give you my moniker for him, but he's earned it and since I love golf...)

I posted it more to point out the differences in Ty-ger's and CDub's philosophies, styles and rhetoric.

Yes, I know that Ty-ger is gone and I/we should let go, but it's very difficult when you've been defrauded of something that you hold very dear by a snake oil salesman. In time the obsession with Ty-ger will pass.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Where did I bash Ty-ger? (ok, I'll give you my moniker for him, but he's earned it and since I love golf...)
I posted it more to point out the differences in Ty-ger's and CDub's philosophies, styles and rhetoric.
Yes, I know that Ty-ger is gone and I/we should let go, but it's very difficult when you've been defrauded of something that you hold very dear by a snake oil salesman. In time the obsession with Ty-ger will pass.

First off I didn't say you were bashing Ty, what you provided was a link to a Ty bashing thread and that is what I commented on.

as for Snake oil I disagree, He was given the job to completely overhaul the program and IMO he did. It wasn't a perfect job and it had a lot of ups and downs (ND did average almost 3 top 25 wins a year under Ty). ND went through this overhaul during 3 of the more difficult schedules In ND's history (top 25%)

I don't think Ty is anything great but I do think ND fans come down on him WAY to hard and fail to realize how young the team was in his final 2 years (most the starters on Ty's offense in his second year, are returning to start next year.

Also, last year ND faced one of the easiest schedules in the last 2 decades for ND...

As for Ty's recruiting, I don't really care what he is doing in recruiting at Washington. I suspect he will succeed at UW in time. I also believe UW will give him the time needed to turn that program around.

 

[jiggafini19]

As for Ty's recruiting, I don't really care what he is doing in recruiting at Washington.

Don't worry because I've seen the list. It doesn't appear he's doing much, so no one is missing anything.

He will not be able to out recruit USC, UCLA and Arizona. Oregon and ASU are probably going to be ahead of the game as well. When he can keep the Taylor Mays and Steve Schillings to stay home, he'll be headed in the right direction.

 

[irish4life99]

First off I didn't say you were bashing Ty, what you provided was a link to a Ty bashing thread and that is what I commented on.
as for Snake oil I disagree, He was given the job to completely overhaul the program and IMO he did. It wasn't a perfect job and it had a lot of ups and downs (ND did average almost 3 top 25 wins a year under Ty). ND went through this overhaul during 3 of the more difficult schedules In ND's history (top 25%)
I don't think Ty is anything great but I do think ND fans come down on him WAY to hard and fail to realize how young the team was in his final 2 years (most the starters on Ty's offense in his second year, are returning to start next year.
Also, last year ND faced one of the easiest schedules in the last 2 decades for ND...
As for Ty's recruiting, I don't really care what he is doing in recruiting at Washington. I suspect he will succeed at UW in time. I also believe UW will give him the time needed to turn that program around.

That all may well be true, but I think your past comments on insinuating ND as a racist school is not only false, but uncalled for.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

That all may well be true, but I think your past comments on insinuating ND as a racist school is not only false, but uncalled for.

Willingham never insinuated that ND was a racist school.

He was asked MANY MANY times, and the 'worst' response he gave was basicly, Look I don't know if race was involved or not..It would be irresponsible for me to just assume it wasn't but I don't know. You would have to ask the people who made the decisions..

seriously 99 your obsession with Ty is unhealthy, he is all you talk about on this board and the ESPN Board. You may want to just move on or explore within yourself why you have such an Issue with Tyrone Willingham

 

[BigIrish]

ehh...willingham played the race card in the john saunders interview prior to the ND vs. Washington game this year. Blatant and without shame, both for willingham and saunders.

i'm not jumping into your little debate here, but get the facts straight. saunders opened the door for the race factor and willingham readily accepted it.

 

[Irishkid23]

We've got Charlie

We've got Charlie

ehh...willingham played the race card in the john saunders interview prior to the ND vs. Washington game this year. Blatant and without shame, both for willingham and saunders.
i'm not jumping into your little debate here, but get the facts straight. saunders opened the door for the race factor and willingham readily accepted it.

Agreed. Willingham never backed off the race issue. It was always in the undercurrent. Just other people spoke about it. He did not stop it.
BUT---Who cares. He's gone and we have Charlie.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

ehh...willingham played the race card in the john saunders interview prior to the ND vs. Washington game this year. Blatant and without shame, both for willingham and saunders.

i'm not jumping into your little debate here, but get the facts straight. saunders opened the door for the race factor and willingham readily accepted it.

No he didn't, Saunders asked him if race was the reason he was fired and Willingham said he did not know and the people to ask would be those that fired him.

How is that playing the race card?

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Agreed. Willingham never backed off the race issue. It was always in the undercurrent. Just other people spoke about it. He did not stop it.
BUT---Who cares. He's gone and we have Charlie.

He never said race WASN't an issue because he didn't know if it was or was not.
When asked he said he didn't think so but he didn't know for sure.

What else should he say, wouldn't it be irresponsible for him to say Race wasn't involved if he didn't know?

Willingham never played the race card, only reporters trying to make it a story did.

 

[Irishkid23]

He never said race WASN't an issue because he didn't know if it was or was not.
When asked he said he didn't think so but he didn't know for sure.
What else should he say, wouldn't it be irresponsible for him to say Race wasn't involved if he didn't know?
Willingham never played the race card, only reporters trying to make it a story did.

I disagree with your opinion, but I respect it.

Willingham did allow the race issue because he allowed it to persist, like a cancer. He did not stop it. He could have stopped it with the reporters and everyone else. He could have said "IT IS NOT A RACE ISSUE, END OF DISCUSSION." He didn't. He knew in his heart it wasn't[[U] a race issue[/U]/U], but he allowed it to linger on. He chose this path and did not put an end to it. That's why, unfortunately, it is still being discussed

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

he allowed it to persist

What if he didn't know if Race was or was not an issue, suppose it was, wouldn't it be wrong for him to say it wasn't when he did not know if it was or was not?

He knew in his heart it wasn't a race issue

I disagree with this, In his time he has shown to be an upstanding human being. I fully believe his word that he did not know if race was or was not an issue. The fact that the AD and the outgoing President did not want him fired yet he was fired I'm sure raised some questions in his mind.

But he never said race did or did not play a part in his firing, which is what someone should do when they don't know.

He chose this path

I see the path he chose as a one of honesty and responsibility to both Notre Dame and the Black community. He did not know if race played a part so he didn't speculate in either direction

 

[jiggafini19]

Tyler Palko.

 

[BigIrish]

i've said what i'm going to say about the saunders interview. if you didn't see the race card being played in that interview, it's because you chose not to see it.

jiggs - i remember that the irish had a really good shot at palko - he wanted to come to ND. what was the story with that?

 

[jiggafini19]

jiggs - i remember that the irish had a really good shot at palko - he wanted to come to ND. what was the story with that?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they recruited him at another position. Watching ND kick Pitt's ass in the opener last year was the beginning of my closure with the 2004 season.

Palko is my lasting image of the Tyrone Willingham Era. I was at that Pitt game and watched this guy obliterate Notre Dame in South Bend. It was the worst experience I've ever had at Notre Dame. I had pretty much given up on ND Football because what I saw that day made me want to hurl all over myself in a green color that resembled my Return To Glory t-shirt.

I am convinced that day is what really sealed the deal. And the ass whipping at USC the next week was the final nail in the coffin.

That and a coach that REFUSED to make staff changes.

And as for race? I'm sick of it. Grow up, stop sticking your hand out like someone owes you something and take accountability and resonsibility for yourself. Everyone doesn't hate you because you're black, they hate you BECAUSE YOU TOOK STEROIDS AND CHEATED, PLUS YOU'RE A TOTAL ASSHOLE!!!!! You didn't get fired because you're black, you got fired BECAUSE YOUR TEAMS SUCKED AND YOU WERE THE COACH. Kind of like Bob Davie, the white guy.

Skin color don't mean shit. If your HEART is BLACK, then it doesn't matter if your skin is black or white. The HEART is what matters. It pisses me off as a white male that everyone else can make excuses for their situation in life and use an agenda to get what they want. And these media characters not only fan the flames, they start the fires. Jason Whitlock, John Saunders, Stephen A. Smith...there is one big long company line and they all have copies of the same agenda. I am sick and tired of it. They are ruining the cause. Why, as an athletic director, would I want to hire an African American to rebuild my football program? If he fails or doesn't meet my criteria and I fire him, I'm a racist. Now that is a serious label to have attached to your name. Do I risk this?

Maybe if Charlie ever gets let go, Kirk Herbstreit will say it was because he was white. And Rick Majerus will claim that ND fired him because he was overweight. Please.

Lather, rinse, repeat. The drum beats on with this conversation. One day, maybe the light bulb goes on.

 

[Irish Legend]

Well said!

 

[punishment]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they recruited him at another position. Watching ND kick Pitt's ass in the opener last year was the beginning of my closure with the 2004 season.
Palko is my lasting image of the Tyrone Willingham Era. I was at that Pitt game and watched this guy obliterate Notre Dame in South Bend. It was the worst experience I've ever had at Notre Dame. I had pretty much given up on ND Football because what I saw that day made me want to hurl all over myself in a green color that resembled my Return To Glory t-shirt.
I am convinced that day is what really sealed the deal. And the ass whipping at USC the next week was the final nail in the coffin.
That and a coach that REFUSED to make staff changes.
And as for race? I'm sick of it. Grow up, stop sticking your hand out like someone owes you something and take accountability and resonsibility for yourself. Everyone doesn't hate you because you're black, they hate you BECAUSE YOU TOOK STEROIDS AND CHEATED, PLUS YOU'RE A TOTAL ASSHOLE!!!!! You didn't get fired because you're black, you got fired BECAUSE YOUR TEAMS SUCKED AND YOU WERE THE COACH. Kind of like Bob Davie, the white guy.
Skin color don't mean shit. If your HEART is BLACK, then it doesn't matter if your skin is black or white. The HEART is what matters. It pisses me off as a white male that everyone else can make excuses for their situation in life and use an agenda to get what they want. And these media characters not only fan the flames, they start the fires. Jason Whitlock, John Saunders, Stephen A. Smith...there is one big long company line and they all have copies of the same agenda. I am sick and tired of it. They are ruining the cause. Why, as an athletic director, would I want to hire an African American to rebuild my football program? If he fails or doesn't meet my criteria and I fire him, I'm a racist. Now that is a serious label to have attached to your name. Do I risk this?
Maybe if Charlie ever gets let go, Kirk Herbstreit will say it was because he was white. And Rick Majerus will claim that ND fired him because he was overweight. Please.
Lather, rinse, repeat. The drum beats on with this conversation. One day, maybe the light bulb goes on.

Wow, this forum is turning a lot into the notredamefans.com boards. Which is why I left it and never go back there. Too much racial tension going on over there, this was something that was minimal on irishenvy.com which is why I choose to visit first thing every day, and last thing every night.
Look, I'm Mexican-American. So I am somewhat bothered by the "stop sticking your hand out like someone owes you something" generalization and the whole thing about being pissed off as a white male that "everyone else can make excuses". You have to keep in mind, that on some occassions, white males also use being white as an excuse for not getting into certain schools and obtaining certain jobs.
Just because some people on this board choose to make it a racial thing, does not mean we all view it that way. I'm a minority, and I don't think for one Iota that race had anything to do with Ty's firing. In fact, I think that because Ty is black, it made the decision to fire him that much more difficult.
I do agree with you on your opinion of what a GM would be thinking. To be honest, if I were a GM, I would be thinking the same thing. I would be thinking, hey, if I hire a black coach and he does poorly, I could either (1) never fire him, or (2) be labled as a racist. I believe there is some truth to that. I believe that UCLA's GM was praying that K. Dorrell would start winning fast after the lashing out at ND over Ty's release last year.
The manner in which the reporters acted last year was ridiculous. I hate to say this, but it seems like the entire black media attacked and labled ND as racist. And unfortunately, those members of the media who disagreed with this notion, could not say anything in opposition for the fear of being labled as racist.
Look, my whole point is that race will always be a touchy subject. Until the day the professional world reflects the racial make up you see on the street, and the coaching ranks reflect the racial make-up of the players, only then will race stop being an issue.
So instead of picking wounds, lets all act like leprauchans here, have a good time, talk irish sports, and leave the hating somewhere else. (whoops, a racial slur ;-)

 

[jiggafini19]

Punishment, my rant comes at a bad time.

We are inundated with Barry Bonds nonsense and it makes me furious. This guy really believes, or has convinced himself, that his ethnicity is the reason why he is being viewed in a negative way as he prepares to pass Ruth and Aaron. This is the same guy who said a few years ago he wanted to pass Ruth and then be done with it. Perceive that comment however you want. Bonds is a jerk. His personality is the issue.

And you're right about white males using excuses for not getting things. In general, I can't stand people who think the world owes them something. You've got to carry your own weight and earn things in this life. My grandfather was an Italian immigrant and got spat on in New York coming off the boat. He never asked anyone for anything and worked his ass off until the day he died. Too many people just want things given to them and in most cases, they don't deserve jack.

My whole point is look at the heart. And because race is a touchy subject, it should not be trivialized or used as a trump card by people with agendas. It isn't fair to ANYONE.

I venture into these Willingham threads with an open mind and the results are always the same. I end up frustrated and completely agitated.

 

[punishment]

Punishment, my rant comes at a bad time.
We are inundated with Barry Bonds nonsense and it makes me furious. This guy really believes, or has convinced himself, that his ethnicity is the reason why he is being viewed in a negative way as he prepares to pass Ruth and Aaron. This is the same guy who said a few years ago he wanted to pass Ruth and then be done with it. Perceive that comment however you want. Bonds is a jerk. His personality is the issue.
And you're right about white males using excuses for not getting things. In general, I can't stand people who think the world owes them something. You've got to carry your own weight and earn things in this life. My grandfather was an Italian immigrant and got spat on in New York coming off the boat. He never asked anyone for anything and worked his ass off until the day he died. Too many people just want things given to them and in most cases, they don't deserve jack.
My whole point is look at the heart. And because race is a touchy subject, it should not be trivialized or used as a trump card by people with agendas. It isn't fair to ANYONE.
I venture into these Willingham threads with an open mind and the results are always the same. I end up frustrated and completely agitated.

I totally agree with everything you just said. I life in SF, so I hear about Barry ALLLLLL day long. I also don't believe he is being targeted because he is black. It has to do with him being the best player in baseball today, only a handful of home runs from passing the Babe and Hank Aaron, and Barry's maltreatment of the media.

I'm an A's fan anyway, so we can't really hit roided players too hard

You are right though, there are a lot of people that expect hand me downs, and I am bothered by those also that give those that are working hard to achieve their goals a bad name. And I also get frustrated at the race card being played with Ty. In fact, I lost some close personal friends, who happen to black, just because I did not believe that Ty's firing was racially motivated. I think for the most part this is why I just avoid the Ty thing and just look towards the future. At the same time, I wouldn't mind if all these Ty threads on here just went away.

 

[joresendez]

Look I understand that messege boards are supposed to create discussion to get us through the day.....but I'm all for letting this thread die....ty willingham was fired.....charlie weis is the new coach....period....lets move one guys and talk some current nd football stuff...the last thing any of us wants to do is offend other members with any race-related comments......and when it comes to ty, its hard for a lot of us to control our frustration and sometimes that can lead to a comment that can be taken out of context....none of us want that....so i say we let this thread die......????????

 

[jiggafini19]

I totally agree with everything you just said. I life in SF, so I hear about Barry ALLLLLL day long.

I feel sorry for you. Here in Chicago, there are two teams that are getting plenty of press so we can focus our attention elsewhere.

I think for the most part this is why I just avoid the Ty thing and just look towards the future. At the same time, I wouldn't mind if all these Ty threads on here just went away.

Anyone here will tell you I feel the same way, but a forum is a forum. Me? I just get sucked in because I like to take part in the discussions. Sooner or later, people will realize it was simply a bad fit and both parties were better off without each other.

Chicago, like Oakland, is a diverse city. I grew up in the city with white kids, black kids and mexican kids. None of us asked for anything or felt anyone owed us something. I take race relations very seriously and I don't think a lot of people do. People use it as a platform for a lot of the wrong reasons.

Two weeks ago, my high school held a race relations forum. Present were the mayor of Evanston (African American female), Lovie Smith, Pat McCaskey and Tommie Harris of the Chicago Bears. Tommie Harris said something that stuck out to me and I repeated it in a previous post: Look at the heart of a person. See the person for their character and how they act towards others. What color their skin is should be the second thing you see.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

i've said what i'm going to say about the saunders interview. if you didn't see the race card being played in that interview, it's because you chose not to see it.

Well I see it just the opposite as you, IMO the only people who see a race card being played are those that want to see it.

The man simply said he does not know if race was a factor or not and the person Saunders should ask is the person who fired him.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Why people get so worked up over discussing Ty is beyond me.

Could ND have some racist people that steared for the firing of Willingham, Sure...I don't think they did, but it is possible and getting so worked up over people questioning it is beyond me.

Outside of a page two article, was there really a national media outlet that called ND racist?

ND for the first time ever fired a coach before his first contract had run out. That is news...especially since its ND, and ND holds itself to a higher standard than other schools

Willingham never played any race card, or expected any hand outs, He said he didn't win enough, and when asked if race played a part in his firing he said he did not know.

Some people would have liked to see him get another year since he put together one heck of a team and as they were maturing he was fired...

It really doesn't go much deeper than that, yet some get so outraged by people sticking up for Willingham its amazing...

Heck I was even banned from this site for merly disagreeing with a poster on this topic, lucky for me the board admin saw there was no reason for my banning.

Willingham likely was not fired because of his race but to say you know 100% that his race played no part in his hiring and firing would be wrong unless you were in the room when it all went down. I don't think race played a part but none of us know

 

[jiggafini19]

The thing that bothers me most is that both sides still want to discuss him. Why? Why bash him? He didn't produce enough wins, sure, but this wasn't a bad person. Bad coach maybe, but he wasn't Jackie Sherrill or Dennis Erickson. Tyrone Willingham is a good man, but as a coach and as a recruiter he leaves much to be desired. It doesn't make him a bad guy. I can't honestly say that he ever did anything to disgrace himself or the school off the field.

On the same note, the apologists need to realize that as a Notre Dame fan you cheer for the team and the school. We're heading into year two under Charlie Weis and people still can't get over this? Why? What did Willingham do on the field that made him so great? What did he do with recruiting after his first class that made you confident in his ability? There is more to it than football and that is what people want to complain about.

The man doesn't bother me one way or the other. I like him and I hope he does well. But why people feel so strongly for him either way puzzles me. And discussions about him always lead to deeper, darker and more heated banter about issues that I would simply rather leave separate from athletics.

The real world is bad enough. Sports is my escape.

 

[punishment]

Why people get so worked up over discussing Ty is beyond me.
Could ND have some racist people that steared for the firing of Willingham, Sure...I don't think they did, but it is possible and getting so worked up over people questioning it is beyond me.
Outside of a page two article, was there really a national media outlet that called ND racist?
ND for the first time ever fired a coach before his first contract had run out. That is news...especially since its ND, and ND holds itself to a higher standard than other schools
Willingham never played any race card, or expected any hand outs, He said he didn't win enough, and when asked if race played a part in his firing he said he did not know.
Some people would have liked to see him get another year since he put together one heck of a team and as they were maturing he was fired...
It really doesn't go much deeper than that, yet some get so outraged by people sticking up for Willingham its amazing...
Heck I was even banned from this site for merly disagreeing with a poster on this topic, lucky for me the board admin saw there was no reason for my banning.
Willingham likely was not fired because of his race but to say you know 100% that his race played no part in his hiring and firing would be wrong unless you were in the room when it all went down. I don't think race played a part but none of us know

I don't think it's that people get so worked up when it comes to talking about Ty, but rather people get worked up over the underlying racial implications that come along with speaking about Ty.

And actually, it was more than a simple page 2 article. In fact, I don't think anybody ever acually used the word racist. But it was implied in all the statements made, whether on Sportscenter, College Gameday, PTI, that crappy show with John Saunders, or anytime Steven A. Smith opens his mouth.

This whole discussion just gets old because its been over a year. But not only that, I think the problem is that we won't be allowed to ever forget about Ty. If ND were to win the NC this year, everybody would say "charlie did it with Ty's guys," the day another black coach gets fired, the media will say "following ND's precedence of firing black coaches without a fair chance...", and everytime a discussion of the lack of black coaches in the NCAA comes up, ND will always be mentioned. So it is much more than just Ty himself, its all the other baggage that comes with it.

No other coach whose record barely hovers over .500 can create such a high volume of discussion.

I think at this point I'm more ticked off at George O'Leary for lying on his resume. Then if O'Leary would have failed, we could have fired him, and he would have faded into obscurity and be rarely mentioned. When was the last time somebody said "bob davie?"

 

[jiggafini19]

If ND were to win the NC this year, everybody would say "charlie did it with Ty's guys,"

I go by who is in the media guide.

When Mike Davis took IU to the title game against Maryland in 2002, there were a TON of pissed off Hoosier fans because he was doing it with "Knight's players." Rather than enjoy being in the final game, they pissed and moaned about it being Knight's team.

To me, it is simple. Look at the sweatshirt on your chest. It says NOTRE DAME, not Tyrone Willingham. Then go to the media guide and you'll find the heach coach is CHARLIE WEIS. Recruiting the players and coaching them are totally different venues. Crow is a dish best served warm.

And I don't miss the West Coast Offense, thank you. BARF.

 

[BigIrish]

Well I see it just the opposite as you, IMO the only people who see a race card being played are those that want to see it.
The man simply said he does not know if race was a factor or not and the person Saunders should ask is the person who fired him.

come on...to play dumb about the issue and say "i don't know" instead of "i believe it was or wasn't an issue" is a BS move, plain and simple. you don't honestly think that he had absolutely no opinion on it do you? he was the one that got fired for cripes sake - you know damn well he had an opinion on whether race is involved. to say "i don't know" is the easy way for him to come out "technically" clean, not tipping his hand, while leaving the door open for a dumbass like saunders say it for him.

but see, ty knows how to play the media game. he knew that he could continue to play the martyr by saying "i don't know," instead of giving his opinion. he knew that if he said, "i don't believe race was an issue," then the media would use his words against him and paint him as a mediocre coach, possibly hurting his future job opportunities. if he said "i believe race was an issue," then he'd have to deal with (at least a segment of) the media accusing him of playing the race card when it was an issue of wins and losses.

so in the end, ty did what was best for him - something i don't necessarily blame him for. it was a very clever tactic. let the media storm swirl about racial bias, avoid offering your opinion on the topic, and reap the rewards in the court of public opinion. but make no mistake - when he said "i don't know" in the saunders interview, and allowed saunders, a black journalist, to imply that race was a factor without either 1) correcting him or 2) supporting those comments, he hung ND out to dry. sometimes there is fault in not just what we do, but what we fail to do.

 

[irish4life99]

seriously 99 your obsession with Ty is unhealthy, he is all you talk about on this board and the ESPN Board. You may want to just move on or explore within yourself why you have such an Issue with Tyrone Willingham[/QUOTE]


I didn't start this thread, or the thread were you called ND out as a racist school, or the thread you started about Willy. So please explain to me how I'm obsessed again. Please provide a link to any thread I've started about TY in the last say 6 months. Also were these not your words on the ESPN thread?

"ND would very much be racist if they hired a black coach knowing full well they wouldn't completely support and would fire him as soon as a flashy (urban Meyer) candidate came about.

Lets not forget ND was in the middle of a Pretty big PR situation when they Hired Willingham. If they didn't think he was qualified and didn't expect him to win but simply paraded him around then fired him without giving him a fair opportunity, wouldn't that be racist?"

I can provide the link if need be. So, better get back there right away to edit it.