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  • PJ Fleck

    Is Western Michigan's P.J. Fleck ushering in a new coaching style?

    "Players want to be coached, they want to be taught," Fleck says. "They don't want to be screamed at. They don't just want to think of football as a job."
    Folks on here have discussed Fleck's work at WMU across a number of threads so I wanted to create a new one. I think in a few years this guy will be a HC at a big school contending for titles.
    What did Davonte do?

  • #2
    Row the boat
    "Fvck Michigan" - The World

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    • #3
      Originally posted by dublinirish View Post
      Is Western Michigan's P.J. Fleck ushering in a new coaching style?



      Folks on here have discussed Fleck's work at WMU across a number of threads so I wanted to create a new one. I think in a few years this guy will be a HC at a big school contending for titles.
      Fitting for society today.
      Brotherhood may fade, but it will never run

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      • #4
        Originally posted by irishff1014 View Post
        Fitting for society today.
        lol you will like this article too:
        San Francisco 49ers and coach Jim Tomsula cater to millennials, allow players to take phone breaks | FOX Sports

        Facing this new reality, the 49ers turned the typical meeting, which on some teams can go for as long as two hours, into 30-minute blocks, each followed by 10-minute breaks that allow players to do what young people do. That is, as Tomsula puts it, to "go grab your phone, do your multitasking and get your fix" before returning the meeting.
        What did Davonte do?

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        • #5
          <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You should really watch the whole thing, but know that Rocky rows the boat at the end.<a href="https://t.co/YLMIVGwISK">https://t.co/YLMIVGwISK</a></p>&mdash; Andy Staples (@Andy_Staples) <a href="https://twitter.com/Andy_Staples/status/765173152267636736">August 15, 2016</a></blockquote>
          <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
          What did Davonte do?

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          • #6
            If WMU improves its record again this year, I would not be surprised to see Fleck get a nice mid-major job.
            "Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's *** by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather take his word for it?"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BeauBenken View Post
              If WMU improves its record again this year, I would not be surprised to see Fleck get a nice mid-major job.
              Like where? What do you mean by mid-major? I've only heard that applied to college basketball, not football.

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              • #8
                I hope he stays for awhile, but that likely won't happen.
                #TeamKizer

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                • #9
                  Minnesota offered Wilson in late October, about four months after his commitment to Boise State, as head coach PJ Fleck had zeroed in on a target during his first year with the program.

                  "(Coach Fleck) had this big thing where he always would talk about Row the Boat; Zach didn't know what it was and I didn't know what it was," Mike Wilson said. "They had a bunch of conversations and at the end their big sell was to get PJ Fleck on the phone with Zach, so he gets on the phone and they're talking for a few minutes. He keeps talking about Row the Boat, Row the Boat, and Zach looks at me and says, 'What does Row the Boat mean?'

                  "At the end of this long, big conversation coach Fleck is laying it out hard and he's a great motivator. And at the end he goes, 'Zach, are you ready to Row the Boat with me?' And Zach goes, 'I'm sorry coach, I can't Row the Boat.' We didn't know anything about that. After the meeting we looked up videos to see what that meant."

                  https://247sports.com/LongFormArticl...2/#164810502_3

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                  • #10
                    Haha, that's pretty funny. This is what I was worried about with Fleck. He seems like a younger version of Harbaugh. Where he has this thing and his thing works for a while so he keeps doing it over and over and over again. And eventually it's stops working and people are like WTF is this guy doing. Similar to Harbaugh's, who has it better than us, nobody. Or when Harbaugh wore cleats into a recruits house as if he thought they would think it was a cool move on his part.

                    It's flashy and will certainly attract some parents, recruits, and players but it doesn't seem to have staying power.

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                    • #11
                      He seems like a walking meme, but it somehow resonates with people. You just have to wonder when it starts to wear thin and stops working.
                      It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Luckylucci View Post
                        Haha, that's pretty funny. This is what I was worried about with Fleck. He seems like a younger version of Harbaugh. Where he has this thing and his thing works for a while so he keeps doing it over and over and over again. And eventually it's stops working and people are like WTF is this guy doing. Similar to Harbaugh's, who has it better than us, nobody. Or when Harbaugh wore cleats into a recruits house as if he thought they would think it was a cool move on his part.

                        It's flashy and will certainly attract some parents, recruits, and players but it doesn't seem to have staying power.
                        It's shtick. Always a huge red flag that substance is lacking. The Harbl comparison is right on.

                        Remember when Koon was all over Fleck's jock?

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                        • #13
                          I like PJ. Not sure the "row the boat" thing is a sustainable long term thing though.

                          Mostly like what he's done with Minnesota. Tough place to win.

                          I can like PJ without wanting him in South Bend though
                          Based Mullet Kid owns

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
                            I like PJ. Not sure the "row the boat" thing is a sustainable long term thing though.

                            Mostly like what he's done with Minnesota. Tough place to win.

                            I can like PJ without wanting him in South Bend though
                            Is it a tougher place to win than Northwestern or Purdue? Both of those teams have a better conference record than MN in the Fleck era. For all the hype, he's really only had one season that was better than what they had under Tracy Claeys the year prior to Fleck's hiring.

                            Granted, I am incredibly negative on Fleck because the shtick annoys the hell out of me and all my Gopher-fan relatives wax lyrical about him.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Whiskeyjack View Post

                              It's shtick. Always a huge red flag that substance is lacking. The Harbl comparison is right on.

                              Remember when Koon was all over Fleck's jock?
                              Haha, I do.

                              Ok, Whiskey. I know you've disliked Fleck the whole time. So, who ya punching in the face if it can be only one. Harbaugh or Fleck?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Luckylucci View Post

                                Haha, I do.

                                Ok, Whiskey. I know you've disliked Fleck the whole time. So, who ya punching in the face if it can be only one. Harbaugh or Fleck?
                                Is this before or after Fleck becomes the next Michigan coach?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Irish du Nord View Post

                                  Is it a tougher place to win than Northwestern or Purdue? Both of those teams have a better conference record than MN in the Fleck era. For all the hype, he's really only had one season that was better than what they had under Tracy Claeys the year prior to Fleck's hiring.

                                  Granted, I am incredibly negative on Fleck because the shtick annoys the hell out of me and all my Gopher-fan relatives wax lyrical about him.
                                  I guess I don't know.

                                  Minnesota seems tough to me for a couple reasons.

                                  1. The best kids in MN do not stay in MN. If you can't keep your best kids in-state you are in trouble. Minneapolis is also where 90% of the elite talent is in MN, and it happens to be the one part of the state where outside schools recruit.

                                  2. MN is sorta isolated geographically. Yes, its in a major metro but look at Minnesota on a map lol. To their west they have the sparsely populated Dakotas. To the east, Wisconsin...and Wisconsin does a good job not letting talent escape to the Gophers. And to the south, Iowa (see Wisconsin).

                                  3. (Bias alert) Minneapolis also sucks. Imagine if Michigan was in downtown Detroit. I love hitting up a Twins game, but it's a genuinely awful place.

                                  You take those things together, and you have a fairly isolated school. In a dumpy city where the Vikings and Twins will always come first. In a cold and low populated part of the country. And no tradition of winning in the last 50 years.

                                  Its a tough job. I wish they were better.

                                  At least Northwestern can boast being in/near Chicago. It's an elite university. If a football factory isn't interested in you, Northwestern seems like a really logical business decision. Internationally respected school. Having that on your resume will do good things pretty much anywhere.

                                  Purdue....I have no idea on. I've heard its an awesome college town. Very respected in the land grant community.
                                  Anyways, they are in the heart of the Midwest. Not every kid can play for Ohio State, Notre Dame, or Michigan..
                                  Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post


                                    Purdue....I have no idea on. I've heard its an awesome college town. Very respected in the land grant community.
                                    Anyways, they are in the heart of the Midwest. Not every kid can play for Ohio State, Notre Dame, or Michigan..
                                    Hard to beat the "Breakfast Club".

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Luckylucci View Post

                                      Haha, I do.

                                      Ok, Whiskey. I know you've disliked Fleck the whole time. So, who ya punching in the face if it can be only one. Harbaugh or Fleck?
                                      Definitely Harbaugh. Nothing rockets you up the Punchability Index like becoming a Michigan Man™.

                                      I'm fine with Fleck as long as he stays away from South Bend. You don't need shtick to win at any school with an actual tradition--it's especially antithetical to our brand--so my eye twitches a little every time someone suggests he ought to replace Kelly. Fortunately Swarbrick already kicked the tires on Fleck and passed, so I doubt that's ever happening.

                                      Originally posted by Irish du Nord View Post

                                      Is this before or after Fleck becomes the next Michigan coach?
                                      Oh man. Now that you've spoken this evil into existence, it's required to come to pass, right?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post

                                        I guess I don't know.

                                        Minnesota seems tough to me for a couple reasons.

                                        1. The best kids in MN do not stay in MN. If you can't keep your best kids in-state you are in trouble. Minneapolis is also where 90% of the elite talent is in MN, and it happens to be the one part of the state where outside schools recruit.

                                        2. MN is sorta isolated geographically. Yes, its in a major metro but look at Minnesota on a map lol. To their west they have the sparsely populated Dakotas. To the east, Wisconsin...and Wisconsin does a good job not letting talent escape to the Gophers. And to the south, Iowa (see Wisconsin).

                                        3. (Bias alert) Minneapolis also sucks. Imagine if Michigan was in downtown Detroit. I love hitting up a Twins game, but it's a genuinely awful place.

                                        You take those things together, and you have a fairly isolated school. In a dumpy city where the Vikings and Twins will always come first. In a cold and low populated part of the country. And no tradition of winning in the last 50 years.

                                        Its a tough job. I wish they were better.

                                        At least Northwestern can boast being in/near Chicago. It's an elite university. If a football factory isn't interested in you, Northwestern seems like a really logical business decision. Internationally respected school. Having that on your resume will do good things pretty much anywhere.

                                        Purdue....I have no idea on. I've heard its an awesome college town. Very respected in the land grant community.
                                        Anyways, they are in the heart of the Midwest. Not every kid can play for Ohio State, Notre Dame, or Michigan..
                                        Went to West Layayette/Purdue last year for work and couldn't realize how small the place is for a Big10 college town. Like their baseball, soccer, and softball facilities are basically surrounded by cornfields and farmland. Even their football facility is pretty compact and you can view practices sitting in your car from the lot adjacent to it that is raised up looking down at the field. It's all very cosy and classical there. Probably what ND campus was like 50 years ago.
                                        What did Davonte do?

                                        Comment


                                        • #21
                                          Originally posted by Whiskeyjack View Post

                                          It's shtick. Always a huge red flag that substance is lacking. The Harbl comparison is right on.

                                          Remember when Koon was all over Fleck's jock?
                                          To be fair, shtick can be really powerful if you're in the right situation. I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that much of Lou's persona was a shtick, but it was a shtick that really resonated with the mystique and religious iconography of Notre Dame, so it worked really well. He tried that stuff in Arkansas and the Jets and people thought he was crazy.

                                          I agree with you though that I don't see Fleck's particular motivational brand working at ND.

                                          Funnier than you in 2012.

                                          Comment


                                          • #22
                                            Originally posted by greyhammer90 View Post

                                            To be fair, shtick can be really powerful if you're in the right situation. I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that much of Lou's persona was a shtick, but it was a shtick that really resonated with the mystique and religious iconography of Notre Dame, so it worked really well. He tried that stuff in Arkansas and the Jets and people thought he was crazy.

                                            I agree with you though that I don't see Fleck's particular motivational brand working at ND.
                                            Yeah...all these guys have shtiks. Look at Dabo. I'm sure he's good at X's and O's....but hes got a real big "aw shucks I'm just a God fearing country boy" thing.

                                            Nick Saban...not sure how to describe his. He might not have one other than being a psychopath.

                                            Kelly...I haven't picked up on one. But haven't some of his attacks been "oh he's too distant. He's like a CEO on a Fortune 500." I'm sure it's there. I guess he had his "RKG" thing when he got to South Bend if that counts?

                                            I dont want Fleck at ND. But a guy being goofy at WMU and Minnesota doesn't mean that's who he is. He may have found something that was helpful in recruiting and is running with it. He ain't gonna win at dumpster fires likes WMU or Minnesota by being a normal character.

                                            I dont know a ton about him other than people love him or hate him. He's a young guy. Might still be finding his sea legs to some degree.

                                            For all I know he's the weird politician who runs in a hyper-partisan area and has one message, somehow obtains statewide office and suddenly becomes a new person because his surroundings are now much different.

                                            Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                            • #23
                                              I think ND needs a 'personality' to get over the top. BK's 'business' approach has gotten the program back to a great place, and if he hits on a QB, it will be enough to finally win a natty, which is about all you can ask for. But if you can find a guy that can maintain/steward that foundation, while also offering a little something more in terms of the motivational aspect that can bleed into both recruiting and game prep, I think you'd have what you need to win a natty for sure.

                                              I used to think that guy would be Fleck, but it seems that maybe he's just a one-trick pony. But I DO think you need a guy that isn't afraid to go beyond "we're gonna play for each other and play hard for four quarters and play like champions today." You need someone that's gonna get the locker room shaking, talking about waking up the echoes before a home game against Clemson, or a guy that's going to summon the ghosts of the Four Horseman before a game against Ohio State.

                                              That guy is gonna have the players ready to ride the emotional rollercoaster when necessary, and he's also gonna be able to parlay that into recruiting.

                                              Though I will admit that it is an extremely fine line that the next HC will be toeing, because the current recruiting ideology is obviously in a better place than it has been since BK arrived (and probably in a better place than Charlie Weis had it; despite CW's top-end recruiting, depth and developmental projections suffered badly almost every class). We've seen more hits, more depth, less total misses, etc. in the past few classes, which has resulted in a roster with few holes. Even when we see doom spelled out because of injuries and bad luck at a position group, BK's got the program in a place where they can mask it for a year by leaning on a different part of the roster.

                                              But if the next guy comes in and tries to use his personality to go over-the-top, it would be really easy to fall back into the '11/'12 trend where you sign a bunch of great players with big personalities that don't necessarily mesh with the current foundation, and it becomes subtraction by addition.

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