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  • Originally posted by 317Irish View Post

    So you’re saying it was a lazy hire for Driskell to bring in Vince?
    LOL, well played.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pumpdog20 View Post
      Driskell has never said to fire anyone. In fact he's against calling for it during the middle of the season. He has been very vocal that the Quinn and Rees hires were lazy. He's been right about Quinn the whole time. He may or may not be right about Rees.

      I'm an admitted fan of Driskell as I think he's pretty dang good at analyzing from an outsider's perspective. Sure he can drag a point to death, but some people only want to see roses. I understand why he brought in Vince, but that guy doesn't add anything.

      My favorite podcast is II for Prister and to a lesser extent O'Malley. I think Sampson is a clown.
      According to Driskell, has Driskell ever been wrong? He doesn't coach anymore because he doesn't want to. I wouldn't want to either if nobody wanted me around their program. Nobody wants him around them.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FightingIrishLover7 View Post
        Also, Tim, Tim, and Pete all independently predicted that Del and Quinn will not be at ND next year, so...
        Along with about a hundred posters on IE.

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        • Originally posted by pumpdog20 View Post
          Driskell has never said to fire anyone. In fact he's against calling for it during the middle of the season. He has been very vocal that the Quinn and Rees hires were lazy. He's been right about Quinn the whole time. He may or may not be right about Rees.

          I'm an admitted fan of Driskell as I think he's pretty dang good at analyzing from an outsider's perspective. Sure he can drag a point to death, but some people only want to see roses. I understand why he brought in Vince, but that guy doesn't add anything.

          My favorite podcast is II for Prister and to a lesser extent O'Malley. I think Sampson is a clown.
          What's good about sites like this is that you can actually talk about various pros without it being censored. Like if you go on Rivals or wherever, you can't post stuff about 247.

          I'm not a Driskell fan, and I have my reasons that go back to when he was at ISD and his opinion on CJ Prosise. Later my opinions were cemented about what other people on the beat think about him, and his Jurkovec/Chip Long nonsense that showed he was completely out of touch.

          But I also respect that people have differences of opinion, and that people like his content. It's almost certain at this point that he's going to be proven correct that Quinn was a bad hire. I thought he was a good hire at the time. Do I agree with his rationale for why Quinn was a bad hire? Not necessarily, and I think he over-inflates some things and borderline fabricates some others.

          With Rees, I actually think his rationale at the time was more logical, but I also think that it was weird to watch the offense improve significantly in 2020 versus 2019 and have him give Rees very little credit.

          Comment


          • The Rees hire was tough to stomach with Moorhead out there waiting to get scooped up. Even Sampson went on the record at the time saying Moorhead was a “homerun” and/or “no-brainer.” But everyone knew the writing was on the wall. I don’t think Driskell ever recovered from that lol.

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            • Originally posted by NDFAN420 View Post

              According to Driskell, has Driskell ever been wrong? He doesn't coach anymore because he doesn't want to. I wouldn't want to either if nobody wanted me around their program. Nobody wants him around them.

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              • Originally posted by KellyIsIt View Post
                The Rees hire was tough to stomach with Moorhead out there waiting to get scooped up. Even Sampson went on the record at the time saying Moorhead was a “homerun” and/or “no-brainer.” But everyone knew the writing was on the wall. I don’t think Driskell ever recovered from that lol.
                Rees was just fine last season, even with a weak WR group to work with. OL is hardly on him this season, if at all.

                Would Moorhead really have been a homerun? Looking through some past articles there were mixed feelings and debates last January. Some said he mismanaged the talent at his last stop, among other things. So far this year Oregon played a tight one against Fresno State, managed to beat OSU (Although that defense wasn't great certainly at the beginning of the year), and they struggled to score against a floundering Stanford team. They did have two snoozers against an FCS and an 0-4 Arizona. Point is it's not that hard to score in the PAC-12 and Oregon currently is 81st in passing this year. Their running game is decent, just not against the tougher teams they played. Do you think Moorhead would do better utilizing this OL?

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                • Can someone explain what is actually so good about Moorhead besides his name at this point? It’s not like Oregon’s offense is setting the world on fire I can rattle of more than 2 hands worth of OCs whose offense this year and last have produced more than Oregon. The OSU win the best you can give Moorhead credit for is he just kept running the same play and OSU refused to change

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                  • I’m imagining the board reaction of going with the limited Anthony Brown in favor of the more arm talent Ty Thompson/Tyler Shough or the complaints of how the defensive recruiting (Flowe, Sewell) is ahead of the offensive recruiting…

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                    • Oregon is currently 25th in offensive FEI. ND is 37th. In offensive F+ Oregon is 26th and ND is 39th.

                      Personally, I would like whatever Coastal Carolina is having, please.

                      EDIT: although one co-OC at Coastal played at Clemson and Clemson is totally going to fire Tony Elliott this offseason.

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                      • I don’t know if there were better names at the time I just remember he was the big one that everyone was talking about. But was he a homerun compared to Rees? Kind of, if you’re comparing resumes and results just because Rees basically didn’t have any.


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                        • Originally posted by KellyIsIt View Post
                          I don’t know if there were better names at the time I just remember he was the big one that everyone was talking about. But was he a homerun compared to Rees? Kind of, if you’re comparing resumes and results just because Rees basically didn’t have any.
                          That still draws the same question though. How would Moorhead have been a home run over Rees?

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                          • I don’t know I can’t get in Pete Sampson’s head to see what he was thinking. But it’s probably because he had actually coached offenses in the past, that were good.

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                            • Originally posted by KellyIsIt View Post
                              I don’t know if there were better names at the time I just remember he was the big one that everyone was talking about. But was he a homerun compared to Rees? Kind of, if you’re comparing resumes and results just because Rees basically didn’t have any.

                              Does Moorhead have a win against a #1 team?

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                              • Originally posted by Dale View Post
                                I’m imagining the board reaction of going with the limited Anthony Brown in favor of the more arm talent Ty Thompson/Tyler Shough or the complaints of how the defensive recruiting (Flowe, Sewell) is ahead of the offensive recruiting
                                I'm not an all in on Moorehead guy but he wasn't OC when they recruited these guys.

                                The last two cycles he's been with them, offensive recruiting has been very good.

                                In their 2021 class, the top 5 prospects are all on offense. In the 2022 class it's 3 or 4 of the top 5 depending on where Tucker plays.

                                Over those two classes, they'll have signed 4 top 50's, 3 in the 50-100 range, 6 in the 100-200 range, and 5 200+ 4 stars. In total, he'll have signed 18 4 star prospects on offense. That offense is loaded for the future. So, I gotta disagree that fans would be having that reaction if this is what he was bringing to ND.

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                                • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                  Does Moorhead have a win against a #1 team?
                                  No but he beat #2 Ohio State and #6 Wisconsin in 2016.

                                  Also I’m not calling for Moorhead or something. I was just explaining where Driskell’s Rees issues came from. I remember all the reporters were talking about Moorhead at the time, including Driskell.

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                                  • Originally posted by KellyIsIt View Post

                                    No but he beat #2 Ohio State and #6 Wisconsin in 2016.

                                    Also I’m not calling for Moorhead or something. I was just explaining where Driskell’s Rees issues came from. I remember all the reporters were talking about Moorhead at the time, including Driskell.
                                    Eh, not that hard when you've got Trace McSorley and Saquon Barkley. He was smart enough to take off once they were gone.

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                                    • Oline isn't gonna get any better this year, at least not enough to rely on any consistency running the ball. My vote...play Pyne and run a tempo scheme, get the ball out quick, and let the skill guys do what they do.

                                      The offense still looks like the coaches think the 2017 Oline is here and they aren't.
                                      The yellow mustard pants are hideous and have to go.

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                                      • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                        Eh, not that hard when you've got Trace McSorley and Saquon Barkley. He was smart enough to take off once they were gone.
                                        McSorley was a 3 star kid with little experience going into the 2016 season. He had two great years with Moorehead and then struggled quite a bit the year after he left.
                                        "The problem with having a sense of humor is often that people you use it on aren't in a very good mood." - Lou Holtz

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                                        • Originally posted by IrishLax View Post

                                          Hah I apparently have that guy on mute. Must've been posting BS long before this.

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                                          • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                            He was smart enough to take off once they were gone.
                                            There's a lot to be said for that in the coaching profession. What I mean is that a lot of very good coaches won't stay around lesser talent, they'll leave as soon as they see that their system isn't going to look as good and the next job may not pay as well. I don't know whether that was the case with Moorehead.

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                                            • Originally posted by NDFAN420 View Post

                                              There's a lot to be said for that in the coaching profession. What I mean is that a lot of very good coaches won't stay around lesser talent, they'll leave as soon as they see that their system isn't going to look as good and the next job may not pay as well. I don't know whether that was the case with Moorehead.
                                              Moorehead was the hottest offensive coach when he left PSU. Took the HC job at Miss St. A respectable SEC job, IMO. Though that didn’t work out well. But, folks seem to forget that Rees was interview by Oregon. They chose Moorehead and paid him more money than Rees got here. He was a wanted man in Eugene. They got who they wanted. Apparently we got who we wanted. But, it shouldn’t come as surprising to anyone why Oregon or some ND folks wanted Moorehead over Rees.
                                              Last edited by Luckylucci; 10-06-2021, 08:55 PM.

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                                              • Originally posted by NDFAN420 View Post

                                                According to Driskell, has Driskell ever been wrong?
                                                Yes. I've heard him admit it. I'll try to think of examples.
                                                He probably just admits being wrong for the purpose of not wanting to come across a particular way to his listeners.
                                                He has been dang right about a few things like his analysis and criticism of the Cain Madden transfer.

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                                                • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                  Eh, not that hard when you've got Trace McSorley and Saquon Barkley. He was smart enough to take off once they were gone.
                                                  Couldn't the same be said about beating the #1 team without the #1 overall draft pick and numerous starters out on defense?

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                                                  • Originally posted by Ndaccountant View Post

                                                    Couldn't the same be said about beating the #1 team without the #1 overall draft pick and numerous starters out on defense?
                                                    You beat the #1 team, you beat the #1 team. History doesn't care, and if you get beat nobody cares. We were missing guys too.

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                                                    • Originally posted by NDFAN420 View Post

                                                      There's a lot to be said for that in the coaching profession. What I mean is that a lot of very good coaches won't stay around lesser talent, they'll leave as soon as they see that their system isn't going to look as good and the next job may not pay as well. I don't know whether that was the case with Moorehead.
                                                      Absolutely. Diaco certainly saw the writing on the wall going into 2014. He failed to recruit a replacement for Big Lou (RIP) and his true MLB to replace Manti from a year prior wasn't panning out either. Those were the two most import positions in his 3-4 scheme, everything starts with those guys. He knew 2014 and beyond was going to hurt at some point, so he took the UConn job thinking it was his best option to cash in on his stock.

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                                                      • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                        You beat the #1 team, you beat the #1 team. History doesn't care, and if you get beat nobody cares. We were missing guys too.
                                                        So, just to ensure I am following. Moorehead gets reduced credit because he had Barkley and Trace. But, the victory of the #1 team without the top overall draft pick and numerous defensive starters out doesn't get reduced, because "History doesn't care".

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                                                        • Originally posted by Ndaccountant View Post

                                                          So, just to ensure I am following. Moorehead gets reduced credit because he had Barkley and Trace. But, the victory of the #1 team without the top overall draft pick and numerous defensive starters out doesn't get reduced, because "History doesn't care".

                                                          McSorley had gaudier numbers than Book and Book is the winningest QB at Notre Dame. Barkley finished 4th for Heisman and was picked 2nd overall in the Draft. In 2017 they also had 2nd round and 4th round receivers to throw to in Hamilton and Gesicki. Chris Godwin the year before was a 3rd rounder too. That's some pretty good talent.

                                                          Kyren should do well, but I don't think he's going to be a Top 10 pick. Mayer was good, but young last year. As far as our receivers, McKinley had a decent game and Davis bailed us out at the end on the big play, but neither was in the same league as Amari Rodgers and Powell.

                                                          The point is Penn State had quite a bit of talent on offense those two years Moorhead was there, certainly more talent than Tommy was working with last year in that first Clemson game. Clemson had plenty of talent on defense to stop us and they got out coached in that game. I think people forget that Uiagalelei threw for almost 450 yards in game 1. How much more damage would Lawrence have done if he was starting? In fact Uiagelelei accounted for more points than Lawrence did later. The bigger problem was we didn't stop the run in game 2 like we did before. When we came out later for the ACC CG the same energy clearly wasn't there. Etienne commented on the physicality of the first game as we held him to 28 yards, but he had no problems in game 2 as he averaged 12+ yards a carry.

                                                          Tell me today if you'd rather be the OC at Alabama or Kentucky. Both schools have talent, but one school clearly has more. Which is more impressive, Alabama knocking off Florida or when Kentucky upset them? In this scenario Rees is coaching Kentucky and Moorhead is at Bama. Nobody really bats an eye when Bama beats Florida because we come to expect it. Kentucky really shouldn't have beat Florida though. If I need to paint it clearer than that, let me know.

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                                                          • The point was that you can't have it both ways. The Clemson win last year was lots of fun and was still a great win. Nobody is denying that. But you can't say Moorhead's time in PSU doesn't count because he had talent and then disregard a relative talent deficiency in another argument.

                                                            Be that as it may...

                                                            Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                            McSorley had gaudier numbers than Book and Book is the winningest QB at Notre Dame. Barkley finished 4th for Heisman and was picked 2nd overall in the Draft. In 2017 they also had 2nd round and 4th round receivers to throw to in Hamilton and Gesicki. Chris Godwin the year before was a 3rd rounder too. That's some pretty good talent.
                                                            As others have pointed out, Trace became the starter after Hackenberg left for the draft and didn't become Trace until Joe took over the offense. Trace's senior year, after Joe left for MSU, he had a significant decline in performance. The argument that he had better numbers than Book is because of the offense Joe put him in.

                                                            Penn State 2015 offensive F+ rating for offense (with a seasoned Hackenberg and stud freshman Barkely) 67th
                                                            2016 ranking with 1st year starter - 22nd
                                                            2017 ranking - 5th
                                                            2018 ranking first year post Joe - 37th (BTW, you had a senior year Trace, Miles Sanders (2nd round draft pick) at RB, KJ Hamler at WR (2nd round draft pick) and Pat Freiermuth at TE (who was also later drafted in the 2nd round). That offense wasn't lacking for talent and had a significant drop off.

                                                            2018 MSU F+ Off rank - 27th with Joe
                                                            2017 MSU F+ off rank - 39th before Joe / Dan Mullen

                                                            You want to attribute Penn State success to just talent? Consider that Alabama ranked 8th in 2017 with Jalen Hurts / Tua, Henry Ruggs, Devonta Smith, Calvin Riddley, Jerry Jeudy, Damien Harris, Bo Scar, Najee Harris. The roster had 47(!!!) NFL players on it and ranked 8th. The trick of the OC is putting the talent in a place to succeed. Joe did that at Penn State.


                                                            Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                            The point is Penn State had quite a bit of talent on offense those two years Moorhead was there, certainly more talent than Tommy was working with last year in that first Clemson game. Clemson had plenty of talent on defense to stop us and they got out coached in that game. I think people forget that Uiagalelei threw for almost 450 yards in game 1. How much more damage would Lawrence have done if he was starting? In fact Uiagelelei accounted for more points than Lawrence did later. The bigger problem was we didn't stop the run in game 2 like we did before. When we came out later for the ACC CG the same energy clearly wasn't there. Etienne commented on the physicality of the first game as we held him to 28 yards, but he had no problems in game 2 as he averaged 12+ yards a carry.
                                                            You don't think that TL being in the game impacted Etienne at all? You don't think the experience of TL being able to read a defense and put Clemson in a better spot to take advantage of match-ups mattered at all? Passing yards are great, but it's not what defines the success of an offense (see Mike Leach). I think you greatly undervalue what TL did for that team.

                                                            And even if TL didn't factor in, ND's offense wasn't just marginally different than game 1, it got smoked. Tommy didn't have an answer.

                                                            Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post


                                                            Tell me today if you'd rather be the OC at Alabama or Kentucky. Both schools have talent, but one school clearly has more. Which is more impressive, Alabama knocking off Florida or when Kentucky upset them? In this scenario Rees is coaching Kentucky and Moorhead is at Bama. Nobody really bats an eye when Bama beats Florida because we come to expect it. Kentucky really shouldn't have beat Florida though. If I need to paint it clearer than that, let me know.
                                                            If you had your choice of Joe Moorhead or Tommy, who would you pick? I know who I would pick. Again, this doesn't have to mean that Tommy is bad per se. It's just recognizing that he isn't at the elite level yet. There are better OC's than him and that's not a knock on him. It can take time. But I just happen to believe that the refinement he needs shouldn't be happening at ND, especially when the offense staff clearly has issues elsewhere. It's compounding the situation IMO.

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                                                            • We wouldn't be having the Moorehead/Rees discussion if the O-line was just average. So the O-line struggles and we need to replace the OC because he doesn't have this magic bag of tricks? I seriously doubt any Moorehead or any other OC would do much better this year if they were the OC instead of Tommy.

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                                                              • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                                                We wouldn't be having the Moorehead/Rees discussion if the O-line was just average. So the O-line struggles and we need to replace the OC because he doesn't have this magic bag of tricks? I seriously doubt any Moorehead or any other OC would do much better this year if they were the OC instead of Tommy.
                                                                Well said. While there have always been Rees detractors, most people were fine with Tommy as OC last year when we were undefeated. The OL takes a big step back and now it's "Tommy sucks."

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                                                                • Originally posted by Ndaccountant View Post
                                                                  The point was that you can't have it both ways. The Clemson win last year was lots of fun and was still a great win. Nobody is denying that. But you can't say Moorhead's time in PSU doesn't count because he had talent and then disregard a relative talent deficiency in another argument.
                                                                  I'm not saying it didn't count, I'm just saying it's easy to look like an offensive genius when you've got considerable NFL talent at all the skill positions like Moorhead had. Where was Joe's experience and acumen against Stanford? Why did they need late heroics to go up late on Fresno State? Don't get me wrong, I think he's a decent coordinator, but I just don't see him being that much better than Tommy. Rees has done well despite getting arguably hamstrung last year and this year at WR and now a pretty awful OL. Moorhead would have not done better given the circumstances.

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                                                                  • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                                                    We wouldn't be having the Moorehead/Rees discussion if the O-line was just average. So the O-line struggles and we need to replace the OC because he doesn't have this magic bag of tricks? I seriously doubt any Moorehead or any other OC would do much better this year if they were the OC instead of Tommy.
                                                                    I agree that it's tough for any OC to get an offense rolling when the OL is poor. Do you think it's possible that another QB coach (now OC) could have had us in better shape at the position after 5 years? I would feel much better with Tommy if we didn't parlay our recent success into an injured Clark, a shorter Book, a Wisconsin retread, and TB12.

                                                                    The most glaring deficiency of the program to being a playoff winning team is an elite QB. We seem no closer to having one.
                                                                    "The problem with having a sense of humor is often that people you use it on aren't in a very good mood." - Lou Holtz

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                                                                    • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                                      I'm not saying it didn't count, I'm just saying it's easy to look like an offensive genius when you've got considerable NFL talent at all the skill positions like Moorhead had. Where was Joe's experience and acumen against Stanford? Why did they need late heroics to go up late on Fresno State? Don't get me wrong, I think he's a decent coordinator, but I just don't see him being that much better than Tommy. Rees has done well despite getting arguably hamstrung last year and this year at WR and now a pretty awful OL. Moorhead would have not done better given the circumstances.
                                                                      Moorhead had emergency surgery before the Stanford game and didn't coach in it. Part of the reason why they lost frankly.

                                                                      Thanks for boiling it down....you think Tommy is equal to Moorhead.

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                                                                      • Originally posted by Ndaccountant View Post

                                                                        Moorhead had emergency surgery before the Stanford game and didn't coach in it. Part of the reason why they lost frankly.

                                                                        Thanks for boiling it down....you think Tommy is equal to Moorhead.
                                                                        I'm going to take Tommy 9 times out of 10 because he's the right fit for Notre Dame, but whatever floats your boat.

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                                                                        • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                                          Well said. While there have always been Rees detractors, most people were fine with Tommy as OC last year when we were undefeated. The OL takes a big step back and now it's "Tommy sucks."
                                                                          If you go back to last year you'll see there was plent of complaints about the play calling. This is nothing new with Rees.
                                                                          Brotherhood may fade, but it will never run

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                                                                          • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                                            Well said. While there have always been Rees detractors, most people were fine with Tommy as OC last year when we were undefeated. The OL takes a big step back and now it's "Tommy sucks."
                                                                            I don't think the question is whether or not he sucks. The question is whether or not he was the best possible hire. Do you honestly think that he was? You don't think that Notre Dame could have pulled in a better offensive coordinator (given the recent run of success it was currently on) than a 20-something year old with a 0 years experience?
                                                                            Last edited by ThePiombino; 10-07-2021, 09:30 PM.

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                                                                            • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                                              I'm going to take Tommy 9 times out of 10 because he's the right fit for Notre Dame, but whatever floats your boat.
                                                                              9 out o 10 times against Moorehead or in general?
                                                                              Brotherhood may fade, but it will never run

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                                                                              • Originally posted by ThePiombino View Post
                                                                                I don't think the question is whether or not he sucks. The question is whether or not he was the best possible hire. Do you honestly think that he was? You don't think that Notre Dame could have pulled in a better offensive coordinator (given the recent run of success it was currently on) than a 20-something year old with a 0 years experience?
                                                                                As OC he has three losses, all from Top 10 teams. If he didn't get the job at ND he would probably be a hot commodity somewhere else. If Moorhead was on the table and he was the better candidate and a better fit why didn't ND pick him up then?

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                                                                                • The way he was hired still resonates with people. Its was a chance to change anything or everything in the offensive philosophy and (from what has been reported), Coach Kelly never took the option to look at it. He didnt meet with Moorhead. Didnt meet with Major Applewhite. Didnt meet with anyone from the NFL. Im not saying hire those guys, but at least get their imput in what they would do with the staff and scheme. It would have made it look like Tommy won the interview process. Instead it looked like the hire of least effort.
                                                                                  Coach Kelly decided on Tommy right off the bat, then had him interview for Oregon at the end to build buzz. He never left the golf course.
                                                                                  Just my opinion. Also we dont do shit to help Tommy. The offensive analyst role is treated like a work-experience position for junior coaches. Maybe look to bring in someone more senior who can challenge Tommy and provide ideas and imput (cough....Todd Haley....Cough)... I like Tommy. Kelly is doing him no favours right now.

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                                                                                  • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post

                                                                                    Well said. While there have always been Rees detractors, most people were fine with Tommy as OC last year when we were undefeated. The OL takes a big step back and now it's "Tommy sucks."
                                                                                    There was already thoughts that Rees was too inexperienced and therefore unlikely (low odds) that he was going to be better than a proven, best OC available type.
                                                                                    I think a fair bit of talk then started after the offense was bad in the two loses at the end. We wanted improvement when it matters and those performances made many think the improvement was not there under Rees.

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                                                                                    • Originally posted by T-Boone View Post

                                                                                      There was already thoughts that Rees was too inexperienced and therefore unlikely (low odds) that he was going to be better than a proven, best OC available type.
                                                                                      I think a fair bit of talk then started after the offense was bad in the two loses at the end. We wanted improvement when it matters and those performances made many think the improvement was not there under Rees.
                                                                                      The big problem in those last two games is one that's often plagued us. We didn't have the playmakers to stretch the field, and both teams basically loaded up the box to stop the run. Our receivers don't get open, at least not consistently. We have no DeVonta Smith, not even close.

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                                                                                      • Originally posted by ThePiombino View Post
                                                                                        I don't think the question is whether or not he sucks. The question is whether or not he was the best possible hire. Do you honestly think that he was? You don't think that Notre Dame could have pulled in a better offensive coordinator (given the recent run of success it was currently on) than a 20-something year old with a 0 years experience?
                                                                                        Was he the best possible hire? None of us really know for sure. I don't think Tommy was lazy hire and BK could have landed a bunch of other guys. After coaching him and then watching him coach, he demonstrated the traits BK feels are necessary for that position. Tommy got the job because BK believes in him. People complain because the same coaches get recycled, then they complain because a young coach was hired.

                                                                                        Brad Stevens and Frank Vogel were hired while they were still wet behind the ears and with hardly any experience. They've done pretty well. I think Tommy could step it up in recruiting, but he's fine as the OC IMO.

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                                                                                        • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                                                          Was he the best possible hire? None of us really know for sure. I don't think Tommy was lazy hire and BK could have landed a bunch of other guys. After coaching him and then watching him coach, he demonstrated the traits BK feels are necessary for that position. Tommy got the job because BK believes in him. People complain because the same coaches get recycled, then they complain because a young coach was hired.

                                                                                          Brad Stevens and Frank Vogel were hired while they were still wet behind the ears and with hardly any experience. They've done pretty well. I think Tommy could step it up in recruiting, but he's fine as the OC IMO.
                                                                                          Is "fine" enough though? Seems a lot of rookie mistakes are being made. With the win margins being razor thin this year, you don't think ND would have benefitted from a seasoned OC rather than an OC-in-training?

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                                                                                          • Originally posted by ThePiombino View Post
                                                                                            Is "fine" enough though? Seems a lot of rookie mistakes are being made. With the win margins being razor thin this year, you don't think ND would have benefitted from a seasoned OC rather than an OC-in-training?
                                                                                            No, because any OC would fair poorly with the line play being what it is. We tend to want to dissect things way too much when the problem is simple and staring us right in the face. Yet the discussion has been BK is too stubborn to change, Tommy doesn't know how to call plays, Tommy can't develop QB's, Quinn needs to be let go yesterday, Alexander can't develop WR's.

                                                                                            These are problems every team not named Alabama has all the time. If the line play was just average, we probably beat Cincy even though we had three TO's. Fix the line and you fix a lot of problems.

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                                                                                            • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                                                              No, because any OC would fair poorly with the line play being what it is. We tend to want to dissect things way too much when the problem is simple and staring us right in the face. Yet the discussion has been BK is too stubborn to change, Tommy doesn't know how to call plays, Tommy can't develop QB's, Quinn needs to be let go yesterday, Alexander can't develop WR's.

                                                                                              These are problems every team not named Alabama has all the time. If the line play was just average, we probably beat Cincy even though we had three TO's. Fix the line and you fix a lot of problems.
                                                                                              Agreed any OC would struggle, but I would argue a seasoned OC who's "been there" would be better equipped to handle the current situation. Maybe ID sooner that a statue of a QB isn't the answer? Maybe ID sooner that by not spreading out the D it's even further handicapping the run game? Maybe ID sooner that putting Buchner in the 2nd half of the Cinci game while Pyne was moving the ball was stubborn and tone deaf? Rookie mistakes...

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                                                                                              • Originally posted by ThePiombino View Post



                                                                                                Agreed any OC would struggle, but I would argue a seasoned OC who's "been there" would be better equipped to handle the current situation. Maybe ID sooner that a statue of a QB isn't the answer? Maybe ID sooner that by not spreading out the D it's even further handicapping the run game? Maybe ID sooner that putting Buchner in the 2nd half of the Cinci game while Pyne was moving the ball was stubborn and tone deaf? Rookie mistakes...
                                                                                                the unknown here is Pyne in practice. Maybe he wasn't showing some of this play making or was turning it over frequently. Hard saying. The Coan talk was always about consistency, so should we take that as Pyne wasn't consistent?
                                                                                                Prehistoric

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                                                                                                • Originally posted by NDdomer2 View Post

                                                                                                  the unknown here is Pyne in practice. Maybe he wasn't showing some of this play making or was turning it over frequently. Hard saying. The Coan talk was always about consistency, so should we take that as Pyne wasn't consistent?
                                                                                                  Seems very likely and I can only assume that's exactly the case if Pyne doesn't get the start on Saturday. That said, the little sample size we have of Pyne when it counts seems to suggest he would be better suited for the current situation. No?

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                                                                                                  • Originally posted by ThePiombino View Post
                                                                                                    Seems very likely and I can only assume that's exactly the case if Pyne doesn't get the start on Saturday. That said, the little sample size we have of Pyne when it counts seems to suggest he would be better suited for the current situation. No?
                                                                                                    Yes, I think with what we've seen in games, it would be difficult to not see the upside to the offense with him.

                                                                                                    I just hope it's not second quarter and we're all going "ahhh....so that's why Coan won the starter job".

                                                                                                    Prehistoric

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                                                                                                    • Originally posted by ThePiombino View Post



                                                                                                      Agreed any OC would struggle, but I would argue a seasoned OC who's "been there" would be better equipped to handle the current situation. Maybe ID sooner that a statue of a QB isn't the answer? Maybe ID sooner that by not spreading out the D it's even further handicapping the run game? Maybe ID sooner that putting Buchner in the 2nd half of the Cinci game while Pyne was moving the ball was stubborn and tone deaf? Rookie mistakes...
                                                                                                      It's BK's call on who plays, not Tommy's. For all we know Tommy may have wanted to make a change earlier, but BK wanted to wait. Tommy's opening drive was great until the pressure came and Coan threw that WTF pass. I'm not advocating Coan over Pyne, but this is still a line problem IMO.

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