Brian Kelly Revisited

[greyhammer90]

I am obsessed with BK signing Tom Herman who looks like he will be unemployed next season. But I know it just seems like such a loser Alabama thing to do. Can someone tell me to shut up and stop thinking about this.

I sure would hate to be like that loser Alabama program and hire tons of football coaches as analysts.

[Irishize]

Book’s career yds/comp is more than a yard per completion better than Coan. In the Wisconsin offense at least he was doing even less to push the ball downfield.

ND is not Wisconsin so I’m trying to withhold judgment on what he will do at ND.

But it’s hard to read this as anything but a vote of no confidence in the two guys who are coming back from the 2020 team.

Right. That is what I was saying. Coan (based on highlights I have watched) seemed to rarely push the ball downfield and when he did it was a sideline route. Conversely, he appeared to “let it rip” more easily which can be both welcoming (more big plays) & frustrating (more ints) to fans. We shall see.

The staff was reportedly going to search for a QB transfer all along (even before Clark’s knee issues). By all accounts, Pyne has the head for the game but to look at him, he needs more time in Balis’ program before he can be expected to survive hits from P5 defenses. He reminds me of the WF QB who got thrown out there as a true freshman a few years ago and ND just rag-dolled him.

[KellyIsIt]

You misread. I said bigger arm than Book. Agree he doesn't have a big arm like a Trevor Lawrence, but from the clips it looks like he has more zip than Book.

Agree his highlights look good and hopefully his arm strength is underrated. It seems the consensus is his arm strength is average at best, but maybe he didn't get much opportunity in Madison to show it off.

But frankly, average arm strength would be fine. If he can distribute the ball and evade pressure, he can win a lot of games.

Not trying to knock Book because he can't control his height, but just being able to throw slants would open up the offense a ton compared to last year. Spreading the field horizontally doesn't work if the D only has to cover 2/3 of it.

The offense next year has a high ceiling if he can be accurate and smart in the 0-15 yard range and have enough strength to threaten with 1v1 balls down the seams and sidelines.

But enough Coan talk, because Buchner is going to light it up in camp and win the job.

[NDohio]

Notre Dame with Brian Kelly = Ohio State with John Cooper

Win a lot of games, but can't win the big games. Ohio State moved on to Jim Tressel, Luke Fickel (Interum Coach), Urban Meyer, and Ryan Day. Notre Dame is content with where they stand. I think it will stay that way as long as Kelly averages double-digit wins. What say you?

Great!! Our next coach will lead us to a national championship!!

Cooper was at OSU for twelve season so the timing is about the same...

[InKellyWeTrust]

Its Buchner or bust. IMO Coan is another QB who is nice, wins a lot of games, but gets killed against good defenses.

[KellyIsIt]

Its Buchner or bust. IMO Coan is another QB who is nice, wins a lot of games, but gets killed against good defenses.

The problem is he hasn't played a game since 2019. The change in game speed from high school to college is already shocking, let alone when you have seen no speed for 2 years. If he blows everyone away in camp then 100% play him and use Coan in relief if necessary.

I just think it is too much to ask for him to be ready in game 1. I think the ideal situation is Coan starts and finishes the first 2-3 games, other than mop up duty. Then by game 4 you start working Buchner into real game situations and see if he can win the job.

[Rogue219]

Notre Dame with Brian Kelly = Ohio State with John Cooper

Win a lot of games, but can't win the big games. Ohio State moved on to Jim Tressel, Luke Fickel (Interum Coach), Urban Meyer, and Ryan Day. Notre Dame is content with where they stand. I think it will stay that way as long as Kelly averages double-digit wins. What say you?

Cooper was bad against Michigan and in Bowl games. Kelly is 6-4 in bowls, 6-3 vs USC.

To be fair, Tressel wasn't a popular hire at the time and they had to "move on" to Fickell as an interim because Tressel lied about things where there was an email trail. Fucking emails, man. Fickell had to place hold for a season and they didn't exactly appreciate the job he did under the cirumstances.

Ohio State rolled in shit and came out smelling like roses with the Meyer hire. Day...I guess we'll see.

I sort of see the analogy here, but I don't know if I'd go that far as to call Kelly = to John Cooper. Cooper probably had more talent and did less with it when he was at Ohio State.

[Rogue219]

I am obsessed with BK signing Tom Herman who looks like he will be unemployed next season. But I know it just seems like such a loser Alabama thing to do. Can someone tell me to shut up and stop thinking about this.

Do you really feel Herman is an all around fit for Notre Dame? From what I know of him, I don't think it would be a fit at all. He's also getting $15M to walk away from Austin and might want the time off to reflect. Reflect on how much money he got for being fired.

I don't know that I'd call the offense arcaic, but having watched the last two games of the season and then having watched that National Championship Game I was definitely envious of the play calling from Alabama and Ohio State. Not to mention the QB play.

I don't know how good of a play caller Tommy Rees is, but are there better ones out there who are at or can be at an elite level? Yes. That's who I would want.

If they could make an Elko or Freeman type of hire OC, I'd be all for that. Best and brightest.

[Old Man Mike]

uhhh .... game-breaker wide receivers ....

any OC would have trouble without. (against the monsters.)

[Irish#1]

Agree his highlights look good and hopefully his arm strength is underrated. It seems the consensus is his arm strength is average at best, but maybe he didn't get much opportunity in Madison to show it off.

But frankly, average arm strength would be fine. If he can distribute the ball and evade pressure, he can win a lot of games.

Not trying to knock Book because he can't control his height, but just being able to throw slants would open up the offense a ton compared to last year. Spreading the field horizontally doesn't work if the D only has to cover 2/3 of it.

The offense next year has a high ceiling if he can be accurate and smart in the 0-15 yard range and have enough strength to threaten with 1v1 balls down the seams and sidelines.

But enough Coan talk, because Buchner is going to light it up in camp and win the job.

Good point. In hindsight, I guess we should have been playing an offensive line that averaged 6' instead of 6'5".

Its Buchner or bust. IMO Coan is another QB who is nice, wins a lot of games, but gets killed against good defenses.

The problem is he hasn't played a game since 2019. The change in game speed from high school to college is already shocking, let alone when you have seen no speed for 2 years. If he blows everyone away in camp then 100% play him and use Coan in relief if necessary.

I just think it is too much to ask for him to be ready in game 1. I think the ideal situation is Coan starts and finishes the first 2-3 games, other than mop up duty. Then by game 4 you start working Buchner into real game situations and see if he can win the job.

Extremely difficult to come in, start as a freshman and be good right out of the gate. Trevor Lawrence had a national championship O & D to work with. Those scenarios are rare.

I don't know how good of a play caller Tommy Rees is, but are there better ones out there who are at or can be at an elite level? Yes. That's who I would want.

If they could make an Elko or Freeman type of hire OC, I'd be all for that. Best and brightest.

Dang, we're ready to get rid of Tommy already?

[Rogue219]

Dang, we're ready to get rid of Tommy already?

No.

[T-Boone]

Dang, we're ready to get rid of Tommy already?

Only if there are better options out there. Which there are. So yes.
Rees seems average to me.

[Irish#1]

Jadarian Price comment from an article in The Athletic.

“The thing that really stood out was the coaching staff, are they going to be there?” Price said. “Coach Kelly, I know he’s stable. Most honest coach I’ve ever talked to. He told me straight up that Notre Dame was going to be his last job. That made me trust him and respect him a lot more, more than I respected other coaches.”

[Irish du Nord]

Jadarian Price comment from an article in The Athletic.


“The thing that really stood out was the coaching staff, are they going to be there?” Price said. “Coach Kelly, I know he’s stable. Most honest coach I’ve ever talked to. He told me straight up that Notre Dame was going to be his last job. That made me trust him and respect him a lot more, more than I respected other coaches.”

The BK to Texas rumors officially dispelled? Lol

[clashmore_mike]

BK comes in at #3 on this list behind Saban and Dabo.

[NorthDakota]

BK comes in at #3 on this list behind Saban and Dabo.

I'm not 1000% sold on #3 but I'm 100% happy to see him get the respect he deserves.

[Rogue219]

Kirby Smart and Ed Orgeron are way too high.

[stpeteirish]

Kirby Smart and Ed Orgeron are way too high.

Edit:Brian Kelly, Kirby Smart and Ed Orgeron are too high

[anarin]

Edit:Brian Kelly, Kirby Smart and Ed Orgeron are too high

Interesting that you would say this... ND doesn't get the talent that most of these other schools get, and they have consistently won games. Pretty sure that would qualify the coach as being solid and doing more with less.

[Whiskeyjack]

Interesting that you would say this... ND doesn't get the talent that most of these other schools get, and they have consistently won games. Pretty sure that would qualify the coach as being solid and doing more with less.

Related:


Kelly is consistently accomplishing more with less talent than virtually any of his peers. #3 behind Saban and Dabo is exactly where he belongs.

[greyhammer90]

Kelly is consistently accomplishing more with less talent than virtually any of his peers. #3 behind Saban and Dabo is exactly where he belongs.

Tbf I think the people who have an issue with Kelly would argue that the "less" side of that equation is on him as well.

I'm fine with No. 3, though I feel like if I was a Georgia fan I could make a good argument that Smart deserves to be up above Kelly (1 playoff win, a whisker from a NC, top recruiting classes every year, basically the only real negative is that he can't beat Bama, which is everyone else too).

[stpeteirish]

Interesting that you would say this... ND doesn't get the talent that most of these other schools get, and they have consistently won games. Pretty sure that would qualify the coach as being solid and doing more with less.

True, but I'd say getting talent is part of the equation too and Kelly doesn't excell there. Don't get me wrong, I think he should be our coach until he gets a lot worse or doesn't want to do it any more and the 2nd part is more likely than the 1st.

I think these ratings should be something along the lines of "who would you want to take over your team and make it better" Kelly might be the best guy out there for a Group of 5 team or a P5 underling but a P5 underachiever like Texas or Tennessee wouldn't be too crazy about Kelly vs someone who can sell a vision. Kelly's "vision'' is basically "I'll beat the guys I'm supposed to" and those schools would want some one else.

[BabyIrish]

True, but I'd say getting talent is part of the equation too and Kelly doesn't excell there. Don't get me wrong, I think he should be our coach until he gets a lot worse or doesn't want to do it any more and the 2nd part is more likely than the 1st.

I think these ratings should be something along the lines of "who would you want to take over your team and make it better" Kelly might be the best guy out there for a Group of 5 team or a P5 underling but a P5 underachiever like Texas or Tennessee wouldn't be too crazy about Kelly vs someone who can sell a vision. Kelly's "vision'' is basically "I'll beat the guys I'm supposed to" and those schools would want some one else.

Your post doesn’t make sense:

On the one hand you say that Kelly should be our coach arguing that he’s doing a good job and then on the other you say that his ceiling is a G5 of school.

If his ceiling is G5 he shouldn’t be our coach period. I think Tennessee would give a bunch of money to have Kelly as their coach.

Also your vision comment is also out in left field. His vision for the program has been pretty consistent since 2017. Graduate Champions. And while he hasn’t won a championship yet, he’s gotten pretty darn close and he’s certainly graduating his players.

I’d also argue that our talent is level has been top 5. We’ve put a lot of guys in the nfl in the last four years.

[Dale]

True, but I'd say getting talent is part of the equation too and Kelly doesn't excell there. Don't get me wrong, I think he should be our coach until he gets a lot worse or doesn't want to do it any more and the 2nd part is more likely than the 1st.

I think these ratings should be something along the lines of "who would you want to take over your team and make it better" Kelly might be the best guy out there for a Group of 5 team or a P5 underling but a P5 underachiever like Texas or Tennessee wouldn't be too crazy about Kelly vs someone who can sell a vision. Kelly's "vision'' is basically "I'll beat the guys I'm supposed to" and those schools would want some one else.

not sure how Tennessee and Texas wouldn’t take the “beat someone I’m supposed to”

That for Texas would equate to 11 win seasons with toss ups of OU and Big 12 championships. For Tennessee, SEC East championships and competitive with Bama? Think each school would take those in a heart beat.

[Rogue219]

Edit:Brian Kelly, Kirby Smart and Ed Orgeron are too high

Edit: No.

[Rogue219]

Feldman has Franklin fifth on his list and has Harbaugh 21st.

[IrishLion]

Trust The Process. Trust the Clemson Plan.

Win 10+ a bunch of years in a row, then at some point, something is going to go very right. Preferably at the QB position.

That's where BK has the program.

PHASE ONE - 2010-2016 - The "CLEMSONING" Phase. Win some games, but also drop some WTF games consistently. Can't win the big one.

PHASE TWO - 2017-2020 - The "CONSISTENT CLEMSON" Phase. Win 10+, beat who you're supposed to, win a big game or two that puts you near the top.

PHASE THREE - ???? - The "GENERATIONAL QB AT CLEMSON" Phase. Favored in almost every game because of a stacked roster, and you also found a badass QB that puts you over the top.

INITIATE PHASE THREE, BK.

[Whiskeyjack]

Tbf I think the people who have an issue with Kelly would argue that the "less" side of that equation is on him as well.

It's an open question if ND can ever recruit as well as 'Bama, Georgia and OSU without totally selling out, but point taken.

I'm fine with No. 3, though I feel like if I was a Georgia fan I could make a good argument that Smart deserves to be up above Kelly (1 playoff win, a whisker from a NC, top recruiting classes every year, basically the only real negative is that he can't beat Bama, which is everyone else too).

The argument against Smart is of course that Georgia recruits as well as 'Bama and yet he's got precious little to show for it. Achieving less with so much more.

Trust The Process. Trust the Clemson Plan.

Win 10+ a bunch of years in a row, then at some point, something is going to go very right. Preferably at the QB position.

That's where BK has the program.

PHASE ONE - 2010-2016 - The "CLEMSONING" Phase. Win some games, but also drop some WTF games consistently. Can't win the big one.

PHASE TWO - 2017-2020 - The "CONSISTENT CLEMSON" Phase. Win 10+, beat who you're supposed to, win a big game or two that puts you near the top.

PHASE THREE - ???? - The "GENERATIONAL QB AT CLEMSON" Phase. Favored in almost every game because of a stacked roster, and you also found a badass QB that puts you over the top.

INITIATE PHASE THREE, BK.

There's a quality Underpants Gnome meme lurking here somewhere.

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Trust The Process. Trust the Clemson Plan.

Win 10+ a bunch of years in a row, then at some point, something is going to go very right. Preferably at the QB position.

That's where BK has the program.

PHASE ONE - 2010-2016 - The "CLEMSONING" Phase. Win some games, but also drop some WTF games consistently. Can't win the big one.

PHASE TWO - 2017-2020 - The "CONSISTENT CLEMSON" Phase. Win 10+, beat who you're supposed to, win a big game or two that puts you near the top.

PHASE THREE - ???? - The "GENERATIONAL QB AT CLEMSON" Phase. Favored in almost every game because of a stacked roster, and you also found a badass QB that puts you over the top.

INITIATE PHASE THREE, BK.

This is exactly where I’m at. Which is what makes the QB recruiting/development situation so frustrating at times. I’m not bagging on Jack Coan but the fact you’re taking him as a transfer at all is a pretty big indicator the approach isn’t working.

[T-Boone]

This is exactly where I’m at. Which is what makes the QB recruiting/development situation so frustrating at times. I’m not bagging on Jack Coan but the fact you’re taking him as a transfer at all is a pretty big indicator the approach isn’t working.

Agreed and thats why I suggested we get Tom Herman to take the O to the next level.

[T-Boone]

I agree with 3rd. Lincoln Riley and Kirby make good cases for the bronze but Oklohoma have had some bad losses.
Riley probably deserves to be higher than Kirby because of the success he has had at QB.

[Dale]

Agreed and thats why I suggested we get Tom Herman to take the O to the next level.

Because of JT Barrett/Cardale Jones?

[Irish du Nord]

Feldman has Franklin fifth on his list and has Harbaugh 21st.

To me, this is nonsense. The amount of acclaim Franklin gets while having a Harbaugh-esque end product makes zero sense.

[T-Boone]

Because of JT Barrett/Cardale Jones?

No, because he is a great offensive coach and well known and would be a great recruiter and he is the kind of assistent Saban would put on.

[Dale]

No, because he is a great offensive coach and well known and would be a great recruiter and he is the kind of assistent Saban would put on.

But his QB resume is Barrett/Jones and Ehlinger who plateaued big time. Are we sure he would take us to another QB level would be my concern there

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

No, because he is a great offensive coach and well known and would be a great recruiter and he is the kind of assistent Saban would put on.

Wasn’t his claim to fame revamping OSU’s running game? I’m not sure he’s on the bleeding edge of passing offenses.

While I’m giving Tommy a pass on the fact he hasn’t been at the controls very long I’m not yet sold on the idea he is the guy.

[stpeteirish]

Your post doesn’t make sense:

On the one hand you say that Kelly should be our coach arguing that he’s doing a good job and then on the other you say that his ceiling is a G5 of school.

If his ceiling is G5 he shouldn’t be our coach period. I think Tennessee would give a bunch of money to have Kelly as their coach.

Also your vision comment is also out in left field. His vision for the program has been pretty consistent since 2017. Graduate Champions. And while he hasn’t won a championship yet, he’s gotten pretty darn close and he’s certainly graduating his players.

I’d also argue that our talent is level has been top 5. We’ve put a lot of guys in the nfl in the last four years.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying re Kelly. I think Kelly would be universally desired at the lower levels because he has proven he can make teams better than their peers. What he hasn't proven is he can win titles and many P5 teams fans are like ours, always thinking they should win a title. His ceiling is obviously higher than G5.

I guess I think Kelly is rated too high because fans are the ultimate judge and they'll take the flashy new guy (Riley, Day) over the vet who's never won a title ant day of the week.

[T-Boone]

But his QB resume is Barrett/Jones and Ehlinger who plateaued big time. Are we sure he would take us to another QB level would be my concern there

He won a championship with those QBs.

[Dale]

He won a championship with those QBs.

I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just trying to understand the point here. You agreed with the original poster that QB recruiting/development has been frustrating and then offered Herman as the solution. Looking at Herman, his resume for those things is Barrett/Jones and Ehlinger. So is the support of QB recruiting/development Barrett/Jones or is this not about QB recruiting/development really and you just like Herman in general?

[Whiskeyjack]

Agreed and thats why I suggested we get Tom Herman to take the O to the next level.

As an OC or analyst? Sign me up. As HC instead of BK? Absolutely not.

[greyhammer90]

Trust The Process. Trust the Clemson Plan.

Win 10+ a bunch of years in a row, then at some point, something is going to go very right. Preferably at the QB position.

That's where BK has the program.

PHASE ONE - 2010-2016 - The "CLEMSONING" Phase. Win some games, but also drop some WTF games consistently. Can't win the big one.

PHASE TWO - 2017-2020 - The "CONSISTENT CLEMSON" Phase. Win 10+, beat who you're supposed to, win a big game or two that puts you near the top.

PHASE THREE - ???? - The "GENERATIONAL QB AT CLEMSON" Phase. Favored in almost every game because of a stacked roster, and you also found a badass QB that puts you over the top.

INITIATE PHASE THREE, BK.

This I absolutely agree with. I made a post about 2 years ago saying that we were Clemson during their Clemsoning period and I think the effect of winning 10 games every year has an inevitable building quality. I strongly disagree with people like Pete Sampson who say that ND can't ever become a dynasty like Bama/ Clemson/ and (to a lesser extent) OSU are currently experiencing. What ND will likely never do is experience the "suddenly champions" thing like how LSU just won it. We can't build like that, it's just not in the cards for us. Our championships need to be culture built. We're not getting anywhere good without a strong foundation.

[greyhammer90]

As an OC or analyst? Sign me up. As HC instead of BK? Absolutely not.

Would've loved Herman as an O analyst. I really wish BK would take on more wayward former HCs in those background roles like Saban. Maybe he would if ND would allow him, not sure.

[Ndaccountant]

Would've loved Herman as an O analyst. I really wish BK would take on more wayward former HCs in those background roles like Saban. Maybe he would if ND would allow him, not sure.

Would be interesting to know if it's BK/ND not wanting to have coaches in, or if coaches are not interested in doing that at ND.

If we are looking at this honestly, Saban has a very high turnover rate in his program and has placed coaches into prominent HC roles in CFB as well as growth to NFL positions or promotions to P5 coordinators. So it's easy to see the appeal if you are a coach....learn from Saban for 2/3 years or so, work your way to on the field coach. if you don't start out there, when the staff turns over at year end. For BK/ND, he has had some coaches move on to bigger and better things, but not at the pace of what Saban does.

IMO, it's probably a bit of both....ND won't let the football program spend all of that additional dollars. But there is no way in this universe that Bill O'Brien is coming to BK for advice or to "learn" from (or Tom Herman). Not because BK couldn't help him (maybe he could or maybe he couldn't) but there is really no incentive for him to do so ($ or professionally).

[ulukinatme]

I doubt ND is gonna pay a former HC the kind of money they want as an analyst, even if said coach's value has dropped recently.

[T-Boone]

I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just trying to understand the point here. You agreed with the original poster that QB recruiting/development has been frustrating and then offered Herman as the solution. Looking at Herman, his resume for those things is Barrett/Jones and Ehlinger. So is the support of QB recruiting/development Barrett/Jones or is this not about QB recruiting/development really and you just like Herman in general?

Yeah, I definitly think Herman would recruit better and develop QBs better than Rees because he is a much more recognisable name and can point to success.
Rees has recruited Pyne, Buchner (rather than JJ) and Angeli. Not good.
Herman developed good QBs when at Texas State and Rice.
Ehlinger is prett good will get drafted late rounds.

[Irish#1]

True, but I'd say getting talent is part of the equation too and Kelly doesn't excell there. Don't get me wrong, I think he should be our coach until he gets a lot worse or doesn't want to do it any more and the 2nd part is more likely than the 1st.

I think these ratings should be something along the lines of "who would you want to take over your team and make it better" Kelly might be the best guy out there for a Group of 5 team or a P5 underling but a P5 underachiever like Texas or Tennessee wouldn't be too crazy about Kelly vs someone who can sell a vision. Kelly's "vision'' is basically "I'll beat the guys I'm supposed to" and those schools would want some one else.

Given what he's done with the recruiting restrictions, I think BK would excel at any other school. To the bolded, "Are you serious Clark?"

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I doubt ND is gonna pay a former HC the kind of money they want as an analyst, even if said coach's value has dropped recently.

Alabama gets to pay them peanuts because they are on buyout money so any salary they have just offsets their buyouts.

[Rogue219]

I think a lot of Power Five schools would love to have Brian Kelly running their program.

[T-Boone]

What about Driskel saying Ryan Day ahead of BK. Give me a break.

[Trait Expectations]

What about Driskel saying Ryan Day ahead of BK. Give me a break.

Driskel's a whore. I wish some other school would buy his fandom/coverage