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'20 MO WR Jordan Johnson (Notre Dame Signee)

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  • This sucks. Really had my hopes up for this kid. I am sure no coincidence that the announcement comes off of a less than pedestrian spring game for him.

    I agree with the above comments on spreading more snaps around. You got to work more of these guys in - you really can't get them to execute any plays well enough to get their feet wet? Also comes back to the lack of development due to too many close games - blow people out and keep running up a full offense with the backups after working backups in with starters. Sure JJ may not be that good and not deserving but we have half a dozen other talented WRs that deserve a shot and recruiting gets easier if you know you get some shots early.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SoIll View Post
      before everyone freaks out and complains about the staff not getting him on the field, did anyone actually consider, maybe he's just not that good?
      Then the staff didn't a very good job with the eval, did they?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dale View Post
        Unless most were keeping it to themselves I don’t see much of those not a fit sentiment shared pre-him showing up to campus. He went to the type of catholic academic school ND covets. The academic stuff popped up pretty quickly in the fall but seems a bit revisionist to question the fit from the beginning

        where does everyone’s optimism shift now? Colzie for me
        Styles bro

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ThePiombino View Post
          Then the staff didn't a very good job with the eval, did they?
          Ugh, I mean, so did the rest of the world, apparently. Lol

          Comment


          • Everyone saying it turns out he wasnt very good or he had academic issues what about every other young wide reciever? Xavier Watts also no good, Lenzy, Keys, Boykin, Claypool. That walk on kid Salerno was getting catches ahead of Watts. WTH.

            Comment


            • Whatever the reason, I hate to see any setback in a young man’s plan especially when it comes to Notre Dame students. Sometimes a step back leads to two steps forward...hoping that for JJ.
              At the same time, I do agree the rotation of players who are going to get snaps must expand, especially at the WR position.
              Maybe it's far too soon to tell.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Luckylucci View Post
                On JJ, I pretty torn on this one. I do believe that a majority of this was due to fit. I've said for awhile, for a lot of prospects, ND is better in theory than it is practice. Meaning the idea of getting an ND degree and playing high level football seems too good to pass up, but you still have to do the work in the classroom. And, it seems like he struggled with that from the start. But, the same thing happened with Botelho and Elston got him to come back. How and why would be the questions I'd ask. I'd bet it has something to do with his buy-in for the role they had planned for him. Which leads to my next point.

                We simply have to play more WR's. Because while it may not have mattered here with JJ, it most certainly could or will with others. And it's the guys that are supposed to be at ND that we can't afford to lose because we couldn't get guys on the field for another 50-100 snaps over a 13 game season. Would it matter JJ played another 50-100 snaps last year? Probably not. But, we cannot have that be a part of these decisions. We have 2 WR's from the '19 and '20 classes. You lose Watts and it's just 1.

                The reason I said I was torn is because while it sucks to lose JJ and I think this is a problem with the program (WR snaps), I'm not sure this has a meaningful impact to our roster. Short term this is Austin's team he just needs to get healthy. Keys might be the most arrow up guy on the team right now. And then we fill in the space with Lenzy, Davis, Wilkins, etc. And, I'm not sure it really hurts the future. Like I've been posting his thread. I think we all didn't give Colzie the credit he deserved. The combo of him and Styles in the same class is the best duo Kelly has recruited at WR during his entire tenure at ND. Following Styles and Colzie's progress will be interesting as that could answer the question of, will they be ready to take over as Sophomores? I seem to think they will.
                This times 1000. Even for the talented WRs who have the "traits", these kids need to be in the mix/ rotation early on if they belong. The narrative now is that even if you're a 5 star, top 100 WR, you aint seeing the field at ND until you're a junior. That doesn't mean start every freshman. It means get them on the field in some form or fashion.
                The yellow mustard pants are hideous and have to go.

                Comment


                • I would say next man up but I dont even think he was the next man up

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post

                    This times 1000. Even for the talented WRs who have the "traits", these kids need to be in the mix/ rotation early on if they belong. The narrative now is that even if you're a 5 star, top 100 WR, you aint seeing the field at ND until you're a junior. That doesn't mean start every freshman. It means get them on the field in some form or fashion.
                    Yup... it feels like receiver would be the one position where it would be easier to work in the underclassmen. I don't know my ass from my elbow when it comes to football but I'd have to imagine you can put together packages of more vertical routes for highly rated kids that can't grasp the entire playbook.

                    Comment


                    • It was definately a classy break up letter from JJ. Hope he goes somewhere good and dominates.

                      Comment


                      • Here's the /r/cfb thread on JJ's transfer announcement. Nothing in there we didn't already know, but someone claiming to be a friend of his adds a little context.

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                        • Originally posted by tussin View Post

                          Yup... it feels like receiver would be the one position where it would be easier to work in the underclassmen. I don't know my ass from my elbow when it comes to football but I'd have to imagine you can put together packages of more vertical routes for highly rated kids that can't grasp the entire playbook.
                          It hasn't always been this way. Go back to 2013. It was a strange year with Golson and all that, but you had TJ Jones who was the go to guy that year, ended up 70 catches, over 1100 yards. Daniels was the big time junior recruit that was expected to perform and you still had Niklas and Koyack at the TE spot. The play calls that year were basically 50/50 rushing attempts and passing attempts. Yet, even with all of that, you had meaningful playing time from Chris Brown (Soph) Corey Robinson (Frosh) and Will Fuller (Frosh). The three of them combined for 30 catches, 526 yds and 3 TD's, all playing in approx 50% of the games. Years later you had Stepherson making an immediate dent. Tori Hunter Jr started contributing as a Soph. You can name more I am sure.

                          Last year you had the following WR catches, when ND was 58% run / 42% pass split based on attempts.
                          Javon - 42
                          Ben - 29
                          Davis - 24
                          Lenzy - 7
                          Wilkens - 7
                          Keys - 5
                          Austin - 1

                          But in 2019, the run / pass split was closer to 50/50 and the WR touches were still dominated by the older guys with only Lenzy really making a dent.

                          I truly believe the lack of "young" WR's making contributions recently is 100% tied to the short comings of Book and coaching. We know taking care of the football has been a top priority and that is one of the reasons Book got the job. But Book had his "safe / security blanket" reads/players and went to them....a lot. He never appeared comfortable taking risks and having your young WR's try for some big plays is a risk. I am hoping that as we turn the page to a new QB, we see a much more even balance of play calling and use of the entire field in the passing game. If we do that, I think the young WR's will have a chance to make a small, but immediate impact. That is what we should be doing at least.

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                          • Everyone tends to want to saying "this" is the reason and it's almost always a compilation of issues.

                            I had a coach tell me once "you can't compartmentalize". It's gotta be same effort every day in all things.

                            If JJ was having effort issues with the books that likely means he had effort issues in film, in practice, in diet, etc.

                            The coaches aren't in the business of not playing kids who deserve to play. There's legitimate reasons when athletes don't see the field.
                            Prehistoric

                            Comment


                            • Yes, expanding the passing game cannot be overstated. More guys need to be involved with actual receptions not just snaps. And, I think folks are going to be like WTF have we been doing this whole time with Coan at QB. I don’t expect his stats to be other worldly but it’s going to look/feel different.

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                              • Originally posted by NDdomer2 View Post
                                If JJ was having effort issues with the books that likely means he had effort issues in film, in practice, in diet, etc.

                                The coaches aren't in the business of not playing kids who deserve to play. There's legitimate reasons when athletes don't see the field.
                                Talk of his academics is pure speculation. All we know for sure is he didnt play as a freshman and playing time is probably a big factor in why he left. He didnt play because BK decided he wasnt good enough to play which is fine except he decides this about almost all freshmen. That is going to be a big problem with recruiting going forward and also retaining recruits. BK needs to play the freshmen WRs this year. If it happens every year the problem cant be the players.
                                Last edited by T-Boone; 05-04-2021, 12:27 AM.

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                                • Originally posted by T-Boone View Post

                                  He didnt play because BK decided he wasnt good enough to play which is fine except he decides this about almost all freshman
                                  are you saying all freshman WRs or all freshman period? Important distinction because one holds some weight whereas one has been debunked constantly

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                                  • Originally posted by T-Boone View Post

                                    Talk of his academic is pure speculation. All we know for sure is he didnt play as a freshman and playing time is probably a big factor in why he left. He didnt play because BK decided he wasnt good enough to play which is fine except he decides this about almost all freshman. That is going to be a big problem with recruiting going forward and also retaining recruits. BK needs to play the freshmen WRs this year. If it happens every year the problem cant be the players.
                                    Frankly the academic talk is more than just speculation. PT probably the biggest factor here but people aren't just throwing reckless speculation around when it comes to classroom struggles.

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                                    • Originally posted by T-Boone View Post

                                      Talk of his academic is pure speculation. All we know for sure is he didnt play as a freshman and playing time is probably a big factor in why he left. He didnt play because BK decided he wasnt good enough to play which is fine except he decides this about almost all freshman. That is going to be a big problem with recruiting going forward and also retaining recruits. BK needs to play the freshmen WRs this year. If it happens every year the problem cant be the players.
                                      Originally posted by fightingirish26 View Post

                                      Frankly the academic talk is more than just speculation. PT probably the biggest factor here but people aren't just throwing reckless speculation around when it comes to classroom struggles.
                                      it most certainly isn't pure speculation. I'm like 95% sure Kelly mentioned he had off field items to take care of last year.

                                      His own HS classmate is posting on reddit that he likely isn't getting it done in classroom.

                                      Then just today ISD is saying he might not even been eligible next season. https://irishsportsdaily.com/s/14892...ces-transfer/1
                                      Prehistoric

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                                      • Originally posted by Dale View Post

                                        are you saying all freshman WRs or all freshman period? Important distinction because one holds some weight whereas one has been debunked constantly
                                        Yes, WR's.

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                                        • Originally posted by T-Boone View Post

                                          Talk of his academics is pure speculation. All we know for sure is he didnt play as a freshman and playing time is probably a big factor in why he left. He didnt play because BK decided he wasnt good enough to play which is fine except he decides this about almost all freshmen. That is going to be a big problem with recruiting going forward and also retaining recruits. BK needs to play the freshmen WRs this year. If it happens every year the problem cant be the players.
                                          BK didn't decide shit by himself. Who is driving this narrative? I see it pop up everywhere that, "You don't want to be in BKs dog house" or "If BK decides you ain't gonna play, doesn't matter how good you are". Kelly has played every player that could maintain good academic standing and was capable of helping us win. He went to great lengths to keep Stepherson on the field. He happily played Tyree and Mayer over more established players because they were simply better.

                                          No matter how high our expectations were for JJ, he just wasn't an immediate difference maker. I have no doubt he can have a good career at Missouri or wherever he ends up but he wasn't a bonafide stud upon entry. Same goes for Watts and Brunelle (who was also injured).

                                          Maybe Lo Styles will help quash this line of thinking. I'm sure then people will say, "BK is finally willing to play freshman after it cost him". Kelly is in the business of winning, he's not overly loyal to veterans. Veterans have a lot going in their favor: Additional years in the playbook, years of S&C, more experience. This is not rocket science.

                                          Go and look up the 5-6 WRs rated above JJ in his class. Only 1 or 2 made a splash. Look at that every year, the top 10 WRs produce some guys ready to contribute and others aren't. Pete Sampson ranked the top 10 WRs between Ohio State and Notre Dame and I think it was the first 7-8 were tOSU, then JJ, then tOSU. Meaning he would've been the eighth highest rated WR on their roster. That's how you find freshman/sophomore contributors, you stack a bunch of them. We haven't been doing that.

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                                          • Originally posted by tussin View Post
                                            We are in an era of college sports (not just football) where top skill talent expects to play and contribute early or transfer. To the extent that ND does not accommodate these types of recruits (which we can debate ad nauseum), then they will need to remain active on the backend grabbing high-floor contributors off the transfer portal. The death nail for ND is a world in which they don't play the young-ins and they also aren't a presence in the grad transfer game. Recent years suggest that this won't be the case but just throwing it out there.
                                            You're right. The culture is changing. NCAA FB is turning into the NFL with the portal being the equivalent of free agency. However, from everything I'm reading, it doesn't sound like he is transferring because he thinks he should be starting. Is he a 5 star or not? At the moment know one knows until he gets on the field. Yet, two years should have been enough time to learn the playbook.

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                                            • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                              BK didn't decide shit by himself. Who is driving this narrative? I see it pop up everywhere that, "You don't want to be in BKs dog house" or "If BK decides you ain't gonna play, doesn't matter how good you are". Kelly has played every player that could maintain good academic standing and was capable of helping us win. He went to great lengths to keep Stepherson on the field. He happily played Tyree and Mayer over more established players because they were simply better.

                                              No matter how high our expectations were for JJ, he just wasn't an immediate difference maker. I have no doubt he can have a good career at Missouri or wherever he ends up but he wasn't a bonafide stud upon entry. Same goes for Watts and Brunelle (who was also injured).

                                              Maybe Lo Styles will help quash this line of thinking. I'm sure then people will say, "BK is finally willing to play freshman after it cost him". Kelly is in the business of winning, he's not overly loyal to veterans. Veterans have a lot going in their favor: Additional years in the playbook, years of S&C, more experience. This is not rocket science.

                                              Go and look up the 5-6 WRs rated above JJ in his class. Only 1 or 2 made a splash. Look at that every year, the top 10 WRs produce some guys ready to contribute and others aren't. Pete Sampson ranked the top 10 WRs between Ohio State and Notre Dame and I think it was the first 7-8 were tOSU, then JJ, then tOSU. Meaning he would've been the eighth highest rated WR on their roster. That's how you find freshman/sophomore contributors, you stack a bunch of them. We haven't been doing that.
                                              ALL. OF. THIS.

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                                              • My biggest gripe with the staff last year was wide receiver development. There was no reason to only have three receivers ready to play. I get Austin and Lenzy but that was a perfect time to get the three freshmen ready to go and some playing time. It didn’t have to be Johnson it could have been watts and Brunelle.
                                                Love Thee Notre Dame!

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                                                • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                  You're right. The culture is changing. NCAA FB is turning into the NFL with the portal being the equivalent of free agency. However, from everything I'm reading, it doesn't sound like he is transferring because he thinks he should be starting. Is he a 5 star or not? At the moment know one knows until he gets on the field. Yet, two years should have been enough time to learn the playbook.
                                                  Isn't he a true freshman and only been here 1 year? Even if he enrolled early he would have been here for an extra few months and not two years. Plus, if he was having some struggles in the classroom, that will take time away from studying the playbook to actual studying.

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                                                  • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                    BK didn't decide shit by himself. Who is driving this narrative? I see it pop up everywhere that, "You don't want to be in BKs dog house" or "If BK decides you ain't gonna play, doesn't matter how good you are". Kelly has played every player that could maintain good academic standing and was capable of helping us win. He went to great lengths to keep Stepherson on the field. He happily played Tyree and Mayer over more established players because they were simply better.

                                                    No matter how high our expectations were for JJ, he just wasn't an immediate difference maker. I have no doubt he can have a good career at Missouri or wherever he ends up but he wasn't a bonafide stud upon entry. Same goes for Watts and Brunelle (who was also injured).

                                                    Maybe Lo Styles will help quash this line of thinking. I'm sure then people will say, "BK is finally willing to play freshman after it cost him". Kelly is in the business of winning, he's not overly loyal to veterans. Veterans have a lot going in their favor: Additional years in the playbook, years of S&C, more experience. This is not rocket science.

                                                    Go and look up the 5-6 WRs rated above JJ in his class. Only 1 or 2 made a splash. Look at that every year, the top 10 WRs produce some guys ready to contribute and others aren't. Pete Sampson ranked the top 10 WRs between Ohio State and Notre Dame and I think it was the first 7-8 were tOSU, then JJ, then tOSU. Meaning he would've been the eighth highest rated WR on their roster. That's how you find freshman/sophomore contributors, you stack a bunch of them. We haven't been doing that.
                                                    For me, it's not about having these highly rated playmakers "make a splash" right away. It's about keeping them engaged and motivated (and not leaving the program). Kids have options these days. Taking a hard line with them isn't always the best course of action. Maybe if he got some playing time, in a season where we dominated a good portion of the schedule, it would have kept him motivated both on and off the field. Might be easier to get motivated in the classroom if you're finding some success on the field.

                                                    It's easy to coach the kids that come in super motivated and do well in the classroom. The only possible way for ND to get to the next step is finding ways to recruit and develop elite talent. Sometimes that takes a different approach than taking a hard line.

                                                    Obviously, I don't really know what went on with JJ but ND obviously did a poor job because the kid is already leaving. Either they did a poor job in the recruitment process of identifying his fit or did a poor job helping him adjust and keeping him "bought in". Either way it's a loss.
                                                    "The problem with having a sense of humor is often that people you use it on aren't in a very good mood." - Lou Holtz

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                                                    • Just 1 more thing......if you go back and read my previous posts.....he was NEVER some physical specimen, he NEVER had high production #'s because he was in a run dominant offense.....never understood why he was a 5* to begin....i think people were just star gazing and not sure what the recruiting sites saw ...like i said, this isn't sour grapes...it is what it is
                                                      EMPTY SPACE WAITING FOR THE NEXT HOT TAKE

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                                                      • What did Davonte do?

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                                                        • Originally posted by BabyIrish View Post
                                                          My biggest gripe with the staff last year was wide receiver development. There was no reason to only have three receivers ready to play. I get Austin and Lenzy but that was a perfect time to get the three freshmen ready to go and some playing time. It didn’t have to be Johnson it could have been watts and Brunelle.
                                                          Only 3 were ready?

                                                          Austin: Ready to play but hurt
                                                          Lenzy: Ready to play but hurt
                                                          Keys: Ready to play but hurt
                                                          Brunelle: Hurt almost all year
                                                          Watts: I don't know... But if Driskell said he was ready, then he most likely wasn't.

                                                          Javon: Ready to play... Played
                                                          Skow: Ready to play... Played
                                                          Wilkens: Ready to play...Played
                                                          Davis: Ready to play.... Played

                                                          " Brendon Clark for QB 2021"

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                                                          • Originally posted by dublinirish View Post
                                                            That’s most of CFB twitter regrading P5 fanbases when one thing goes wrong in the offseason.

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                                                            • Yeah, I'm thinking maybe he just wasn't that good at football to begin with and a bunch of people working for paysites got it wrong. It's a great excuse to bitch about the coaching staff for a lot of people, but in the end nobody should really lose a bit of sleep over it. I'm a players first fan but there comes a point where some responsbility on and off the field falls on the player.
                                                              Last edited by Rogue219; 05-04-2021, 11:18 AM.
                                                              It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                                                              • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post
                                                                Yeah, I'm thinking maybe he just wasn't that good at football to begin with and a bunch of people working for paysites got it wrong. It's a great excuse to bitch about the coaching staff for a lot of people, but in the end nobody should really lose a bit of sleep over it.
                                                                I am thinking this way too. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up. If he goes to a middle of the pack big ten school then what was all the angst about him not playing about? Someone that is at that level shouldn't be playing as a frosh at ND.

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                                                                • https://n.rivals.com/content/prospec...johnson-209763

                                                                  Look how his "rating" jumped and when. Is it safe to me to assume that he climbed up the rankings because he ran around at some camp in his underpants and did a bunch of things that got people like Mike Farrell excited so they called him a five star player?

                                                                  Seen that movie before.

                                                                  He's probably going to go to Missouri or Mississippi and then end up transferring again. I'd bet money on it.
                                                                  It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                  • Originally posted by NDRock View Post

                                                                    For me, it's not about having these highly rated playmakers "make a splash" right away. It's about keeping them engaged and motivated (and not leaving the program). Kids have options these days. Taking a hard line with them isn't always the best course of action. Maybe if he got some playing time, in a season where we dominated a good portion of the schedule, it would have kept him motivated both on and off the field. Might be easier to get motivated in the classroom if you're finding some success on the field.

                                                                    It's easy to coach the kids that come in super motivated and do well in the classroom. The only possible way for ND to get to the next step is finding ways to recruit and develop elite talent. Sometimes that takes a different approach than taking a hard line.

                                                                    Obviously, I don't really know what went on with JJ but ND obviously did a poor job because the kid is already leaving. Either they did a poor job in the recruitment process of identifying his fit or did a poor job helping him adjust and keeping him "bought in". Either way it's a loss.
                                                                    I can sympathize with some of this thinking. We need to do a better job of adding elite talent and then we need to develop them like we do everyone else on the roster. I'd say we've done a good job developing elite Kyle Hamilton, Michael Mayer, Chris Tyree (and on the cusp of developing elite Blake Fisher and Rocco Spindler). Some players simply aren't elite and if they don't merit playing time, what is the coaching staff supposed to do? Have a secret meeting to discuss players who are struggling and had a high ranking but haven't earned more snaps? Then decide which of those should be thrust into action because the staff is afraid of losing them?

                                                                    That's not the culture you want to foster. Healthy culture is created by an unbroken series of steps and policies behind decision making, then following it consistently to its end.

                                                                    ND needs to continue adding high quality talent and developing it.

                                                                    But remember, JJ didn't enroll early. This was his first offseason with the program and he bounced before even making it to summer camp. JJ and ND weren't a great match, so I wish him well and I hope we add many more high quality WR recruits in this class.

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                                                                    • JJ had 0 catches, 0 yards, and 0 TD's. He will be easy to replace. I saw the highlight of the pass thrown to him in the end zone, the pass was way off, but the way he ran his route he looked lazy.

                                                                      Should ND play as many WR's as possible? That depends, if they cannot find consistent starters- yes. If they can find players like Fuller, Boykin, Claypool- no. Last year our upperclassman were injured: Lenzy, Keys, and Austin.

                                                                      I would like to see more production out of our WR's this year and if not they need to get rid of Del.

                                                                      I agree with Trait Expectations- I don't think ND & JJ were a match.

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                                                                      • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post
                                                                        Yeah, I'm thinking maybe he just wasn't that good at football to begin with and a bunch of people working for paysites got it wrong. It's a great excuse to bitch about the coaching staff for a lot of people, but in the end nobody should really lose a bit of sleep over it. I'm a players first fan but there comes a point where some responsbility on and off the field falls on the player.
                                                                        That may be true and if so then that's a failure on the staff for recruiting him. When you literally get zero production out of the highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era, it's a failure.
                                                                        "The problem with having a sense of humor is often that people you use it on aren't in a very good mood." - Lou Holtz

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                                                                        • If they fire Del, you'd better find someone who can recruit their ass off under the academic and cultural parameters that is Notre Dame Football. I don't know who that guy is at the moment. Some of these WR coaches are getting well over half a million a year at some of the other Power Five schools. Maybe a guy like Kevin Cummings at San Jose State would take a jump to ND. I have no idea. It's probably going to have to be someone who is on the up and up, but does that guy aspire to be an OC someday?

                                                                          Again, quick to blame the coaches when in reality some of the ownership has to go on the players. It's possible these coaches did all they could for these guys on and off the field to help them, engage them, motivate them. If it doesn't take, it doesn't take. It isn't a fit and you move on.
                                                                          It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                                                                          • Originally posted by NDRock View Post

                                                                            That may be true and if so then that's a failure on the staff for recruiting him. When you literally get zero production out of the highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era, it's a failure.
                                                                            Is it within the realm of possibility that during the recruiting process, things changed and went in a different direction at no fault of the coaches that caused the player to not make it? These are teenaged boys, they're not GE appliances that come with warranties or can be fixed if they don't work right out of the box.

                                                                            Courtships are great. Then you get into the relationship and shit changes. Fast. Not for the better. You find out the person isn't what you really thought. The person thinks, "you know, this isn't for me and no matter what I try I can't get it done here." Entirely possible that's what happens. It sucks. Life isn't perfect.

                                                                            Again, I wouldn't get stuck on the rating. It really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. You're putting a great deal of value on that, which is fine and I think most of us do, but in this instance was this guy ever really a five star player? I'm thinking not. "Highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era." Sounds like a huge deal. He never saw the field. Take a look at some of the freshman that have gotten to play since Kelly has been here. It's entirely possible you can get on the field in your first year. If you're good, they get you in. That's football.

                                                                            It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                            • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post
                                                                              If they fire Del, you'd better find someone who can recruit their ass off under the academic and cultural parameters that is Notre Dame Football. I don't know who that guy is at the moment. Some of these WR coaches are getting well over half a million a year at some of the other Power Five schools. Maybe a guy like Kevin Cummings at San Jose State would take a jump to ND. I have no idea. It's probably going to have to be someone who is on the up and up, but does that guy aspire to be an OC someday?

                                                                              Again, quick to blame the coaches when in reality some of the ownership has to go on the players. It's possible these coaches did all they could for these guys on and off the field to help them, engage them, motivate them. If it doesn't take, it doesn't take. It isn't a fit and you move on.

                                                                              NO, because 5-7 WR's and a handful of the over 1200 players didn't make it. Therefore 5% or 60 or so players who didn't materialize, that is coaching. You can forget about the 95% of players who went on to have decent careers, and forget about the guys who made it to the NFL, its ALWAYS coaching and specifically BK's fault when a 17 year old doesn't become and All American as a True Freshman.
                                                                              " Brendon Clark for QB 2021"

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                                                                              • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post

                                                                                Is it within the realm of possibility that during the recruiting process, things changed and went in a different direction at no fault of the coaches that caused the player to not make it? These are teenaged boys, they're not GE appliances that come with warranties or can be fixed if they don't work right out of the box.

                                                                                Courtships are great. Then you get into the relationship and shit changes. Fast. Not for the better. You find out the person isn't what you really thought. The person thinks, "you know, this isn't for me and no matter what I try I can't get it done here." Entirely possible that's what happens. It sucks. Life isn't perfect.

                                                                                Again, I wouldn't get stuck on the rating. It really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. You're putting a great deal of value on that, which is fine and I think most of us do, but in this instance was this guy ever really a five star player? I'm thinking not. "Highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era." Sounds like a huge deal. He never saw the field. Take a look at some of the freshman that have gotten to play since Kelly has been here. It's entirely possible you can get on the field in your first year. If you're good, they get you in. That's football.
                                                                                Sure. I'm really not sweating this one way or the other. I'd be surprised if the kid goes somewhere and kills it. Usually doesn't happen, though with the new transfer rules you'll probably see it how happen much more. Kelly gets judged by his record. He has won much more than he's lost and will probably go down as the best coach in ND history to not win a NC.

                                                                                I don't think it's that controversial to say we failed in this recruitment. They're not all going to be home runs but zero production from a highly talented kid isn't great. It will probably used against us in the next recruiting battle. Obviously not the end of the world.
                                                                                "The problem with having a sense of humor is often that people you use it on aren't in a very good mood." - Lou Holtz

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                                                                                • Originally posted by tussin View Post

                                                                                  Yup... it feels like receiver would be the one position where it would be easier to work in the underclassmen. I don't know my ass from my elbow when it comes to football but I'd have to imagine you can put together packages of more vertical routes for highly rated kids that can't grasp the entire playbook.
                                                                                  True. Golden Tate 2007 is the prime example. True freshman, didn't know left from right, but ran go routes fast as hell and got good experience.
                                                                                  The yellow mustard pants are hideous and have to go.

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                                                                                  • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post

                                                                                    True. Golden Tate 2007 is the prime example. True freshman, didn't know left from right, but ran go routes fast as hell and got good experience.
                                                                                    The problem is that JJ wasn't a burner. So what special route could he have run that our other WRs couldn't? Chris Brown busted out some vertical routes, so did Fuller and Stepherson to a lesser degree.

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                                                                                    • Originally posted by NDRock View Post

                                                                                      Sure. I'm really not sweating this one way or the other. I'd be surprised if the kid goes somewhere and kills it. Usually doesn't happen, though with the new transfer rules you'll probably see it how happen much more. Kelly gets judged by his record. He has won much more than he's lost and will probably go down as the best coach in ND history to not win a NC.

                                                                                      I don't think it's that controversial to say we failed in this recruitment. They're not all going to be home runs but zero production from a highly talented kid isn't great. It will probably used against us in the next recruiting battle. Obviously not the end of the world.
                                                                                      Or maybe multiple people failed simultaneously at once? Rivals rated this guy ahead of Mayer and Tyree. They're both seeing time on the field. That's a failure on them. Kevin Stepherson came to ND as a three star recruit and he got on the field as a freshman. Rivals had this guy rated the 28th best player in America and he never caught a pass. Maybe he never should have been rated that high?

                                                                                      Johnson got targeted twice in the Blue and Gold Game I believe, and the second time he went to block when the play was a screen pass to him. If he doesn't know the plays and can't handle the classwork, he's accountable for that. If he doesn't know the plays, I don't know that you can blame many other people for that, though I'm sure it's on Kelly, Rees and Alexander somehow some way in order to fit the narrative of the segment of the fan base that wants to blame them. I think Jordan had to have known what he was getting into here, and that's on him.

                                                                                      In the end, if he was truly not a good fit, some of that falls on the coaching staff. Of course. I did not see any offers from Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt. Notre Dame isn't for everyone and these coaches need to recognize that when they get starry eyed over the football part.
                                                                                      It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                                                                                      • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post

                                                                                        True. Golden Tate 2007 is the prime example. True freshman, didn't know left from right, but ran go routes fast as hell and got good experience.
                                                                                        For a 3-9 team not coached by Kelly that was the victim of the previous staff's utter recruiting neglect and failure. Tate got out there out of necessity more than anything else. Stovall, Samardzija and McKnight were all gone.

                                                                                        There are plenty of guys who can't do the job even when you draw something up in the dirt. Again, if you're the 28th best player in America and truly that, they're going to find a way to get you on the field if you can cut it.

                                                                                        I think he didn't cut it and quite a bit of that is his fault.

                                                                                        It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                                                                                        • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                                                          I can sympathize with some of this thinking. We need to do a better job of adding elite talent and then we need to develop them like we do everyone else on the roster. I'd say we've done a good job developing elite Kyle Hamilton, Michael Mayer, Chris Tyree (and on the cusp of developing elite Blake Fisher and Rocco Spindler). Some players simply aren't elite and if they don't merit playing time, what is the coaching staff supposed to do? Have a secret meeting to discuss players who are struggling and had a high ranking but haven't earned more snaps? Then decide which of those should be thrust into action because the staff is afraid of losing them?

                                                                                          That's not the culture you want to foster. Healthy culture is created by an unbroken series of steps and policies behind decision making, then following it consistently to its end.

                                                                                          ND needs to continue adding high quality talent and developing it.

                                                                                          But remember, JJ didn't enroll early. This was his first offseason with the program and he bounced before even making it to summer camp. JJ and ND weren't a great match, so I wish him well and I hope we add many more high quality WR recruits in this class.
                                                                                          This is pretty spot on. If a kid can play as a freshman, he'll see the field. Coaches livelihood depends on them winning. Even if a kid is a 5 star, there is a big difference between an 18 and 21 year old in both mental and physical makeup.

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                                                                                          • Referencing someone’s spring game performance that transferred 24 hours later feels like not the best barometer of his talent

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                                                                                            • JJ’s rating ascension came mainly from camp performance correct? Only reason I ask is because if you look at OSU in terms of recruiting St Louis area WRs last couple years there hit rate has been abysmal. Williams looks to be good but has transferred, Brown switched to D and is depth, Babb is a bust (injury I think) and Cooper transferred. Odd trend in a be it very small sample size.

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                                                                                              • This seems like a carbon copy of the Derrick Allen situation a few years back.
                                                                                                "Yes, they deserved to die and I hope they burn in hell!"
                                                                                                --Samuel L

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                                                                                                • Surely a freshman can play and catch 5-10 passes throught the season with an incomplete knowledge of the playbook.

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                                                                                                  • Originally posted by GoldenToTheGrave View Post
                                                                                                    This seems like a carbon copy of the Derrick Allen situation a few years back.
                                                                                                    Not really. JJ just plays a position that BK very rarely plays young players.
                                                                                                    When he has played them we need to go back and look at how on earth that unfolded (is it always injuries forced him to play them?).

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                                                                                                    • Originally posted by T-Boone View Post
                                                                                                      Surely a freshman can play and catch 5-10 passes throught the season with an incomplete knowledge of the playbook.
                                                                                                      They ran a screen pass for him in a spring scrimmage on Saturday and he fucked it up.
                                                                                                      It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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