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  • A couple of studies that I read on mask mandates.

    On wearing mask mandates, Illinois had a mask mandate early. Across the River, Iowa delayed issuing a mask mandate. At the time Iowa did not have a mask mandate delaying it until significant populations were infected. The result was that the in the populations across from each other the rates of infection were lower in the Illinois population.

    An interesting study compared North Dakota who instituted a state-wide mask mandate while South Dakota did not but encouraged "personal responsibility". Similar rates of infection at the time. The graphs of Covid infections were very similar. However, some considerations were that SD did not test nearly as much. The real rate of infection may have been much higher. Also, the SD Gov left it up to the individual cities and their cities with the most populations instituted mask mandates with probably resultant decrease in spread though the lack of testing hindered that.

    North and South Dakota and Iowa all had Republican Governors. Mask mandates were instituted as above at the times when the infections were surging and hospitals were filling up or on the point in the graphs before peaks. Their public health officials all encouraged the three Govs to institute mitigation measures much earlier.

    Trump could have followed scientific advice and encouraged mask use and other measures earlier which may well have lowered the rates of infection in states with Republican Governors. It was all about limiting the base of infected individuals and transmissions with the "flattening of the curve". Now that the "horse is out of the barn" Biden has limited measures, i.e. masks in federal buildings and properties, and has Governors who have entrenched positions on state-wide orders. Vaccine production and rollouts in the states are what a Biden Administration can use.

    Here's the percentage of doses given from the supply states have been given. The Trump admin could have contracted more doses from Pfizer earlier and can be criticized for that. As we have heard, many states and/or cities are concerned that they will run out at the rates they are giving vaccines.

    The looming problem will be the return of the novel virus in populations not exposed and not vaccinated bringing another surge. Presidents can lead by example, too.

    Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US
    Last edited by Legacy; 01-23-2021, 12:34 PM.

    Comment


    • https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/83...inephrine-rule

      PHARMA: Biden Freezes Trump’s Lower Cost Insulin and Epinephrine Rule
      Posted on 01/22/2021

      Big pharma is smiling big right now. The big three insulin producers are Eli Lilly and Company, Novo Nordisk A/S, and Sanofi S.A., in which they dominate more than 90% of the world insulin market by value. After swearing-in, U.S. President Joe Biden’s HHS froze the Trump administration’s December 2020 drug policy that mandates community health centers to pass on all their insulin and epinephrine discount savings to patients.

      The rule was finalized in late December 2020. The drug rule was put in place to benefit patients who have a hard time paying for expensive insulin and allergy medication. Former President Trump campaigned on lowering the price of important pharmaceutical drugs like insulin, which is used to treat diabetes, and epinephrine. Diabetes afflicts over a quarter of Medicare beneficiaries and drives billions in Medicare spending every year. More than 20 million Americans have diabetes, in which the body fails to properly use sugar from food due to insufficient insulin, a hormone produced in the pancreas.

      Big Pharma Hated Trump
      Trump’s “most favored nation” law seeks to lower prices in Medicare by linking the costs of certain medicines to cheaper prices in other developed countries. People often complain of buying the same drug in the U.S., when the price in Canada and Mexico are far cheaper. Obviously, the pharmaceutical industry strongly opposed the measure, arguing it would bring foreign price controls to the U.S. healthcare system and limit access. Groups including the Association of Community Cancer Centers and the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America sued to block the rule. In December 2020, U.S. District Judge Catherine Blake issued a nationwide injunction on Trump’s “most favored nation” drug pricing rule that would tie Medicare Part B drug prices to those paid in other wealthy countries starting January 1, 2021. The Trump administration also removed the gag clauses that prevented pharmacists from telling patients how to buy less expensive drugs. Apparently, pharmacists could not talk to patients about how to buy drugs.

      Seema Verma, the former U.S. Administrator, Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, wrote in an op-ed in October 2020, “This year, President Trump struck a deal –known as the Part D Senior Savings Model – with pharmaceutical manufacturers and plans that will provide many Medicare beneficiaries access to a broad set of insulins at a maximum $35 copay for a month’s prescription. We are encouraging beneficiaries to see if a participating plan that includes their insulin is right for them during Medicare Open Enrollment, which begins October 15.

      This initiative could save the over 1.3 million seniors who rely on Medicare Part D plans and use insulin, an average of $446, or 66 percent, a year on their insulin costs. For those whose health, and even lives, depend on insulin, the savings will be nothing short of a godsend.”
      120 million Americans suffer from either diabetes or pre-diabetes.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
        You're either grossly misinformed or refuse to admit that some positives came out of the Trump admin. Even if you remove the stock market gains, pre covid we saw:

        Record low unemployment
        Record low unemployment for minorities and women
        Manufacturing grew again
        Wages were at a ten year high
        We had millions more jobs open than people to fill them
        We saw 3% GDP growth in 2018, something Obama never accomplished
        We did all this without any "stimulus" or "federal job program" or "shovel ready jobs" bull$hit.

        Again, all that was pre covid so both Trump and Biden get a pass on that from me.
        You're so short sighted, it's not worth discussing economic cycles with you. What good is "record unemployment" in the short term if you end up with long-term loss? Where are the unemployment numbers right now? Where is GDP and manufacturing now? If you don't understand the fact that Trump's four years of shit will leave us in a deep hole for the next ten, you're an idiot.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
          Let's hope he can get these going asap.
          11K jobs is not even a rounding error in the rate calculation.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
            I dont like the governor metric. People seem to be pretty open minded about the opposite party in state elections.
            How many democratic governors has ND had, chief? That's what I thought. The same applies to Hawaii; we've had one republican governor in my lifetime, but she was a really centrist mayor prior to her time at gov. She sucked.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
              How many democratic governors has ND had, chief? That's what I thought. The same applies to Hawaii; we've had one republican governor in my lifetime, but she was a really centrist mayor prior to her time at gov. She sucked.
              Total? 6 or 7. In my relatively brief lifetime? One. But they had controlled it for 28 of 32 years before the GOP pretty well locked it down.

              Massachusetts, complete opposite of ND, has had one Democrat governor in my lifetime.
              Last edited by NorthDakota; 01-23-2021, 03:42 PM.
              Based Mullet Kid owns

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post
                https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/83...inephrine-rule
                120 million Americans suffer from either diabetes or pre-diabetes.
                https://about.bgov.com/news/health-c...everses-trump/

                Last-Minute Rules Subject to Biden 60-Day Pause: From insulin to life-saving medical devices to last-ditch efforts to protect premature infants (including those from “live birth” abortions), multiple rules posted by the HHS in the final days of Donald Trump’s presidency are subject to a 60-day pause.

                A memo circulated yesterday by White House Chief of Staff Ronald Klain said all rules, guidances, or other agency actions that didn’t take effect prior to noon that day—the official handover time from Trump to Biden—will be subject to review by the new administration before they can take effect. If the previous administration’s actions raise questions of “fact, law, or policy,” the designated officials now leading the agencies can further delay effective dates and consult with the Office of Management and Budget about other actions. The agencies can also open comment periods on those actions. If there are no such questions, no further action is needed. The rule, proposal, or guidance can be considered active and effective, the memo said. Read more from Fawn Johnson.
                In other words, seems like fairly standard legal review.

                But I'm sure you double checked the issue before insinuating that Joe Biden is fucking over 120,000,000+ diabetics.
                Last edited by BilboBaggins; 01-23-2021, 03:28 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post
                  Dude, this is your straw-man argument. I never said and I'll not refute your argument that Trump could have taken COVID more seriously, especially at the start, but at the same time nobody was taking it that seriously to begin with. As mentioned the experts at the WHO were telling us China had it under wraps and it was a mild concern at best, and Fauci said initially masks do nothing. Would you expect Biden to go against the experts in the same position? Hell, he signed a bunch of mandates today for masks in federal buildings and other locations all while he and his family were unmasked, much to the dismay of some reporters. "Rules for thee, not for me" and all that. I thought the general consensus among Trump's detractors is that nothing he says is legitimate or truthful anyway? You're going to tell me this country failed at containing the virus because everyone decided to reverse course and believe him on COVID of all things? Doesn't make much sense.

                  Back to my initial argument...my initial comment was in regards to the COVID death toll that has been pinned on Trump by the media in 2020, 400k and counting which was a ridiculous accusation used strictly for the purpose of destroying the election. It achieved it's intended result, and now people are turning it around on Biden to show the hypocrisy of the logic.
                  You have it all wrong. Trump deserves less blame for the early response and more blame for the months and months on end in which he didn't take it seriously and showcased to his tens of millions of followers that taking the virus seriously is a partisan issue. He pretty much molded anti-masking into his brand. Remember when his whole family family of douchebags attended the Presidential debate and sat in front of everyone without masks?

                  In the summer, mask usage polled 85%+ among Democrats and around 45% for Republicans. Donald Trump could have encouraged Republicans to up their game, but the man's narcissism puts him in a corner from which he never criticizes those who praise him.

                  Also I'm still waiting on ya to recognize that even his own health experts have been quick to basically signal "THANK GOD THAT IGNORAMUS IS GONE" in the last week.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                    You're so short sighted, it's not worth discussing economic cycles with you. What good is "record unemployment" in the short term if you end up with long-term loss? Where are the unemployment numbers right now? Where is GDP and manufacturing now? If you don't understand the fact that Trump's four years of shit will leave us in a deep hole for the next ten, you're an idiot.

                    If you dont see that those current numbers are highly altered due to the pandemic than you are an idiot. Perhaps it would have been so much better if we had shitty economic numbers prior to the pandemic so that the losses were minimal.

                    Please discuss those economic cycles.
                    Once we truly come together as a family, nothing can stop us. Its my job to make sure we become that family.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post
                      https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/83...inephrine-rule



                      120 million Americans suffer from either diabetes or pre-diabetes.
                      I'm in healthcare, and I'm also diabetic. I don't need insulin, however this is something near and dear to my heart... or kidney and liver, I guess. This op-ed is incredibly misleading. Pre-diabetics generally don't need insulin, they need diet and exercise. Type 1 diabetics, those who do need insulin, number about 2MM in the US. According the ADA, approximately 7.5MM Americans "depend" on insulin, but "depend" is a fuzzy number because a person who generally does not "need" insulin may need a bolus in certain emergent situations. ADA Info

                      Let's drill down more. Trump's executive order on drug pricing addressed Medicare Parts B and D. It doesn't address private insurers nor Medicaid, with Medicaid being one of the most important links in the chain. You know what did address Medicaid? The ACA - with Medicaid expansion. Something republicans have been fighting against, simply because a black guy had the audacity to nationally implement something that the 1990s GOP and Bob Dole, BOB DOLE, was trying to establish.

                      Drug pricing is an incredibly complex process, with multiple producers, intermediaries, providers, patients, and payors in the mix: https://care.diabetesjournals.org/co...1/6/1299?rss=1

                      Trump had no idea what his order would do, he just wanted the optics of signing a document. He had no plans, no idea how complex the issue is (who knew that healthcare was so complex?), and no understanding how CMS works.

                      This reversal allows the professionals to determine what process/mechanism will actually work best. I fully agree with this action.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by goldandblue View Post
                        If you dont see that those current numbers are highly altered due to the pandemic than you are an idiot. Perhaps it would have been so much better if we had shitty economic numbers prior to the pandemic so that the losses were minimal.

                        Please discuss those economic cycles.
                        Hey, genius, the pandemic and economy are intertwined, no matter how much you hamsters try to bifurcate the conversation. This is the real world, with real-world externalities. This isn't a lab discussion.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                          You're so short sighted, it's not worth discussing economic cycles with you. What good is "record unemployment" in the short term if you end up with long-term loss? Where are the unemployment numbers right now? Where is GDP and manufacturing now? If you don't understand the fact that Trump's four years of shit will leave us in a deep hole for the next ten, you're an idiot.
                          Originally posted by goldandblue View Post
                          If you dont see that those current numbers are highly altered due to the pandemic than you are an idiot. Perhaps it would have been so much better if we had shitty economic numbers prior to the pandemic so that the losses were minimal.

                          Please discuss those economic cycles.
                          Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                          Hey, genius, the pandemic and economy are intertwined, no matter how much you hamsters try to bifurcate the conversation. This is the real world, with real-world externalities. This isn't a lab discussion.
                          Yeah idiot, dont you know Trumps policies and racism started this pandemic

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by IrishLax View Post
                            Yeah, actually I do. Probably because I coach HS sports and have spent a large amount of my life dedicated to sports. I think it completely destroys women's sports both at the professional and amateur level. There are already high profile examples of this issue. Ironically, in the Connecticut case it was found that such a policy violates Title IX, meaning that Biden's EO is unlawful if enforced. It is only a matter of time before this ends up in front of the Supreme Court and *at worst* this will be a 6-3 ruling against such a

                            And if the NCAA is forced to allow males to compete with females, it is only a matter of time until people start taking advantage of this to get a free college education. The rewards are even greater at the Olympic level or when considering sports like tennis. A decent male player could dominate the female tour to the tune of millions of dollars. And this isn't a far fetched scenario. There is a reason many female athletes speak out vehemently against the idea of allowing males to compete in their sports.

                            In general, I have no issues with trans inclusive policies. None whatsoever. But I draw the line at sports for a lot of self-explanatory reasons.
                            I realize there are a lot of dumb kids with their pronouns and pan-whatevers, but the day I see a mass movement of boys competing against girls is the day all hope is lost. This is "they're gonna use our bathrooms!" on a much dumber level.

                            I get your point, though. There is a question of integrity involved. I just don't see this happening.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                              I realize there are a lot of dumb kids with their pronouns and pan-whatevers, but the day I see a mass movement of boys competing against girls is the day all hope is lost. This is "they're gonna use our bathrooms!" on a much dumber level.

                              I get your point, though. There is a question of integrity involved. I just don't see this happening.
                              Same was said about bathrooms not so long ago, sir (?)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post
                                Same was said about bathrooms not so long ago, sir (?)
                                What's wrong with unisex bathrooms?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                                  I realize there are a lot of dumb kids with their pronouns and pan-whatevers, but the day I see a mass movement of boys competing against girls is the day all hope is lost. This is "they're gonna use our bathrooms!" on a much dumber level.

                                  I get your point, though. There is a question of integrity involved. I just don't see this happening.
                                  I dont even think it would take a "mass movement" for it to be a problem. All it takes is that one team with that one player to affect the whole sport.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post
                                    What's wrong with unisex bathrooms?
                                    Did I say something was wrong with them?

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by BilboBaggins View Post
                                      You have it all wrong. Trump deserves less blame for the early response and more blame for the months and months on end in which he didn't take it seriously and showcased to his tens of millions of followers that taking the virus seriously is a partisan issue. He pretty much molded anti-masking into his brand. Remember when his whole family family of douchebags attended the Presidential debate and sat in front of everyone without masks?

                                      In the summer, mask usage polled 85%+ among Democrats and around 45% for Republicans. Donald Trump could have encouraged Republicans to up their game, but the man's narcissism puts him in a corner from which he never criticizes those who praise him.

                                      Also I'm still waiting on ya to recognize that even his own health experts have been quick to basically signal "THANK GOD THAT IGNORAMUS IS GONE" in the last week.
                                      I don't think it was any secret that Fauci and Trump didn't get along, you're not coming in with the exclusive on that one.

                                      Masking percentages between the parties isn't a great statistic to live and die by. The hardest hit communities have been metropolitan areas which are predominantly Democrat. Do rural and suburban communities get hit too? Of course. Should everyone wear a mask? I think so, you won't get a complaint from me. You're talking about a demographic where COVID cases outside Ohio's major cities have just reached 20 new cases a day per county in November when before they were averaging no more than 5-10. That's with 45% masking supposedly. Bottom line: his voting base ends up doing a far better job not spreading the virus per person because they're already social distancing in a sense.
                                      Last edited by ulukinatme; 01-23-2021, 04:50 PM.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by ulukinatme View Post
                                        I don't think it was any secret that Fauci and Trump didn't get along, you're not coming in with the exclusive on that one.
                                        Okay so if the President's narcissism prevents him from listening to the best minds in the world, and his narcissism prevents him from showing empathy and honesty towards the situation and prevents him from pleading with his base to take this seriously...

                                        ...then what the hell are we even talking about? That's all the difference in the world. Oh you want me to say the media was a bunch of meanies and Biden deserves criticism too? what on earth man lol

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                                          11K jobs is not even a rounding error in the rate calculation.
                                          I have hesitated to post on the Keystone XL cancelation as I have been directly and immediately effected. My opinions will likely be interpreted as biased... and to some degree they probably are.

                                          While jobs are important, I think we all (dissenters and supporters) need to step back and look at the macro picture going forward. If we can intelligently agree there is no need for Canadian oil to be piped to the United States refineries, so be it. To dismiss the project on the information (surface information) that I have seen seems a bit myopic. I may well be proven wrong.

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                                            You're so short sighted, it's not worth discussing economic cycles with you. What good is "record unemployment" in the short term if you end up with long-term loss? Where are the unemployment numbers right now? Where is GDP and manufacturing now? If you don't understand the fact that Trump's four years of shit will leave us in a deep hole for the next ten, you're an idiot.
                                            Trump's economic policies led us to the strongest economy our country had seen in a long time (pre covid). Ignoring that is ignoring reality.

                                            You can't ignore the numbers and data I provided because it would be impossible, so you just blame Covid and the effects from it on "Trump's 4 years." What a crock of $hit lol.

                                            If you can't accept that a global pandemic caused the downturn, I'll just shake my head and laugh at ya without calling you an idiot.
                                            The yellow mustard pants are hideous and have to go.

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                                              Hey, genius, the pandemic and economy are intertwined, no matter how much you hamsters try to bifurcate the conversation. This is the real world, with real-world externalities. This isn't a lab discussion.
                                              Damn you are smart! That is exactly the point i was making dip shit.
                                              Once we truly come together as a family, nothing can stop us. Its my job to make sure we become that family.

                                              Comment


                                              • Nice work, Joe. Definitely should be a priority right now, not much elsw going on.

                                                https://twitter.com/amyalkon/status/...442973184?s=19

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                                                • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
                                                  Trump's economic policies led us to the strongest economy our country had seen in a long time (pre covid). Ignoring that is ignoring reality.

                                                  You can't ignore the numbers and data I provided because it would be impossible, so you just blame Covid and the effects from it on "Trump's 4 years." What a crock of $hit lol.

                                                  If you can't accept that a global pandemic caused the downturn, I'll just shake my head and laugh at ya without calling you an idiot.
                                                  Yet conveniently you ignore that every single President has seen GDP and the stock market reach a record high. Every single one.

                                                  If you can't accept that the United States is the most technologically advanced, developed, and diversified economy in the history of the world, and that our 330+ million citizens will prosper regardless of the guy in the White House...I'll just shake my head and laugh at ya.

                                                  It's amazing to me how Republicans think they have a monopoly on economic prosperity. They speak of the Reagan years as if it was an oasis, ignore the 1990s economic surge because it was under Clinton, ignore the buildup of the housing crisis because it was under Bush, ignore the...let me check my notes...longest consecutive streak of months with job growth in American history, because it was under Obama, and treat the Trump years as another economic oasis and ignoring the Fed juicing the economy even in robust years and the trillions of unjustifiable national debt...

                                                  The best one is when you look at opinion polls of "is the economy doing well" and see Republicans go from like 30% to 90% from 2016 to 2017 lololol

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Originally posted by BilboBaggins View Post
                                                    Yet conveniently you ignore that every single President has seen GDP and the stock market reach a record high. Every single one.

                                                    If you can't accept that the United States is the most technologically advanced, developed, and diversified economy in the history of the world, and that our 330+ million citizens will prosper regardless of the guy in the White House...I'll just shake my head and laugh at ya.

                                                    It's amazing to me how Republicans think they have a monopoly on economic prosperity. They speak of the Reagan years as if it was an oasis, ignore the 1990s economic surge because it was under Clinton, ignore the buildup of the housing crisis because it was under Bush, ignore the...let me check my notes...longest consecutive streak of months with job growth in American history, because it was under Obama, and treat the Trump years as another economic oasis and ignoring the Fed juicing the economy even in robust years and the trillions of unjustifiable national debt...

                                                    The best one is when you look at opinion polls of "is the economy doing well" and see Republicans go from like 30% to 90% from 2016 to 2017 lololol
                                                    Looks like you're fairly new here and that's cool, but we've compared the Obama economy to the Trump economy (pre covid) several times in other threads. I don't want to do it again. It's exhausting and depressing lol.

                                                    Hint...it's not really close and for the 4th time in two days I'll refer to the numbers I posted a few pages back. You can't argue those. It would be like someone telling you ND went 8-4 this year instead of 10-2.

                                                    It's not hard to accept that the US is the most technologically advanced in the world. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed that our economy will grow, that small businesses will continue or thrive, that wages will keep rising, etc.
                                                    The yellow mustard pants are hideous and have to go.

                                                    Comment


                                                    • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
                                                      Looks like you're fairly new here and that's cool, but we've compared the Obama economy to the Trump economy (pre covid) several times in other threads. I don't want to do it again. It's exhausting and depressing lol.

                                                      Hint...it's not really close and for the 4th time in two days I'll refer to the numbers I posted a few pages back. You can't argue those. It would be like someone telling you ND went 8-4 this year instead of 10-2.

                                                      It's not hard to accept that the US is the most technologically advanced in the world. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed that our economy will grow, that small businesses will continue or thrive, that wages will keep rising, etc.
                                                      The Biden team will shift away from traditional metrics like unemployment and GDP. We need to shift to evaluating the economy on gender justice, climate justice, racial justice, and how many D&I officers get hired in the next four years.
                                                      Running the damn ball since 2017.

                                                      Comment


                                                      • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
                                                        Looks like you're fairly new here and that's cool

                                                        Comment


                                                        • Originally posted by BilboBaggins View Post
                                                          Yet conveniently you ignore that every single President has seen GDP and the stock market reach a record high. Every single one.

                                                          If you can't accept that the United States is the most technologically advanced, developed, and diversified economy in the history of the world, and that our 330+ million citizens will prosper regardless of the guy in the White House...I'll just shake my head and laugh at ya.

                                                          It's amazing to me how Republicans think they have a monopoly on economic prosperity. They speak of the Reagan years as if it was an oasis, ignore the 1990s economic surge because it was under Clinton, ignore the buildup of the housing crisis because it was under Bush, ignore the...let me check my notes...longest consecutive streak of months with job growth in American history, because it was under Obama, and treat the Trump years as another economic oasis and ignoring the Fed juicing the economy even in robust years and the trillions of unjustifiable national debt...

                                                          The best one is when you look at opinion polls of "is the economy doing well" and see Republicans go from like 30% to 90% from 2016 to 2017 lololol
                                                          I am not going to pick a side in the fight, but the mere fact that you try to take him to task for posting economic "facts" that align with his party and ignoring the rest and you actually manage to do the exact same is either a stroke of ironic genius or a complete lack of foresight. But something tells me you weren't going for irony.

                                                          Comment


                                                          • Originally posted by Ndaccountant View Post
                                                            I am not going to pick a side in the fight, but the mere fact that you try to take him to task for posting economic "facts" that align with his party and ignoring the rest and you actually manage to do the exact same is either a stroke of ironic genius or a complete lack of foresight. But something tells me you weren't going for irony.
                                                            Just pointing out that the American economy succeeds regardless of who is President. Not really sure what irony you see.

                                                            It would be pretty simple to say "no, President X didn't see the economy reach a record size or the stock market reach a record height, because Y." But you can't do that, it's impossible.

                                                            Turns out, we're not a communist country. This shouldn't be news to Republicans. And the usual response is to move the goalposts and say "well, it grew faster" or try to prove a Presidents impact on the margins. But IMO you're just trying to weigh a President's marginal impact on a marginal change in the economy and that's even harder to show.

                                                            And both sides play the game, they'll talk of Bill Clinton...but WTF did Clinton do to invent the internet and put the US in an unparalleled geopolitical position? Theyll shit on Carter, but his Fed appointments succeeded in straightening the ship in the 1980s for Reagan. Theyll worship Obama, but ignore historically low interest rates, etc.

                                                            Anyway ill continue to roll my eyes at folks worshipping the Trump era economy when you could put a US unemployment chart in front of them, take of the years, and they couldn't show Trump's impact.

                                                            It's even better around my neck of the woods where the biggest jobs creators have been a new Amazon warehouse and massive First Solar plant. And people will credit Trump for it lolol
                                                            Last edited by BilboBaggins; 01-25-2021, 12:26 AM.

                                                            Comment


                                                            • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
                                                              Looks like you're fairly new here


                                                              Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
                                                              It's not hard to accept that the US is the most technologically advanced in the world. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed that our economy will grow, that small businesses will continue or thrive, that wages will keep rising, etc.
                                                              And yet the economy has grown under every single President. Huh.

                                                              Comment


                                                              • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post
                                                                What's wrong with unisex bathrooms?
                                                                They bitch because we didn't put the seat back down.

                                                                Comment


                                                                • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                                                                  11K jobs is not even a rounding error in the rate calculation.
                                                                  I think you're short sighted to dismiss that. It's like dismissing the total number of votes from a small town to the total number of votes casted in an election. Is it a large number compared to the total number? Of course not. Those numbers may be small, but ultimately they contribute to the larger number. It all starts with "1" and goes up from there.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                  • Originally posted by BilboBaggins View Post
                                                                    And both sides play the game, they'll talk of Bill Clinton...but WTF did Clinton do to invent the internet and put the US in an unparalleled geopolitical position? Theyll shit on Carter, but his Fed appointments succeeded in straightening the ship in the 1980s for Reagan. Theyll worship Obama, but ignore historically low interest rates, etc.


                                                                    It's even better around my neck of the woods where the biggest jobs creators have been a new Amazon warehouse and massive First Solar plant. And people will credit Trump for it lolol
                                                                    Please don't tell us Clinton or Gore invented the internet. This was being developed both in the private sector and the military before they took office. IIRC Gore happened to chair or sit on a committee that controlled the funds. Even though he likes to say he invented the internet, that was just another politician trying to take credit.

                                                                    A little off topic, but I don't see Amazon being able to continue this business model. Amazon warehouses are popping up all over the country. They have like 3 or 4 right in the greater Indy area. They churn through employees like crazy. They're like the drummer on the galley ship pushing those slaves to row. It wears on people and there's not an unlimited number of people to fill those positions. They've already raised their wages to entice people to stay, but that's a placebo IMO and a sign their prices will go up.

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                                                                    • <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">President Joe Biden will sign an executive order Monday aimed at boosting American manufacturing, setting in motion a process to fulfill his campaign pledge to strengthen the federal government&#39;s Buy American rules. <a href="https://t.co/aYR0SvcieV">https://t.co/aYR0SvcieV</a></p>&mdash; CNN (@CNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1353651093771837443?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 25, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

                                                                      Also, this is how you walk-the-walk versus talk-the-talk:

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                                                                      • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                                                        Please don't tell us Clinton or Gore invented the internet. This was being developed both in the private sector and the military before they took office. IIRC Gore happened to chair or sit on a committee that controlled the funds. Even though he likes to say he invented the internet, that was just another politician trying to take credit.
                                                                        I pretty clearly said he doesn't deserve that praise. He doesn't deserve the praise of the Cold War ending either.

                                                                        Obama doesn't really deserve praise that fracking revolutionized the oil and gas industry. But they certainly took credit for its overall reduction in greenhouse gases.

                                                                        In the same vein, Trump doesn't deserve praise for the Fed keeping interest rates so low for so long, or a trillion-dollar tax cut that poured sugar on the economy. If the shoes was on the other foot, "fiscal conservatives" would be crawling out of the woodwork to remind us that we need to reduce government spending and shrink the deficit in a robust economy. Since the Trump Administration threw that into the wind, the increased government spending and other unofficial stimulus makes it even harder to show the administration's positive (sustainable) impact on the economy IMO.

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                                                                        • Originally posted by BilboBaggins View Post
                                                                          I pretty clearly said he doesn't deserve that praise. He doesn't deserve the praise of the Cold War ending either.
                                                                          Fair enough, I misread your post.

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                                                                          • <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">President Biden officially repeals the ban on transgender individuals serving in the military<br><br>Full release from the White House <a href="https://t.co/x9c4jgcnOm">pic.twitter.com/x9c4jgcnOm</a></p>&mdash; Johnny Verhovek (@JTHVerhovek) <a href="https://twitter.com/JTHVerhovek/status/1353736582185021441?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 25, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
                                                                            What did Davonte do?

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                                                                            • Originally posted by IrishLax View Post
                                                                              <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">President Joe Biden will sign an executive order Monday aimed at boosting American manufacturing, setting in motion a process to fulfill his campaign pledge to strengthen the federal government's Buy American rules. <a href="https://t.co/aYR0SvcieV">https://t.co/aYR0SvcieV</a></p>&mdash; CNN (@CNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1353651093771837443?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 25, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

                                                                              Also, this is how you walk-the-walk versus talk-the-talk:
                                                                              Getting around Buy American in DoD was annoying but pretty easy. I have no problem with strengthening that "requirement."
                                                                              Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                                                              • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                                                                Please don't tell us Clinton or Gore invented the internet. This was being developed both in the private sector and the military before they took office. IIRC Gore happened to chair or sit on a committee that controlled the funds. Even though he likes to say he invented the internet, that was just another politician trying to take credit.

                                                                                A little off topic, but I don't see Amazon being able to continue this business model. Amazon warehouses are popping up all over the country. They have like 3 or 4 right in the greater Indy area. They churn through employees like crazy. They're like the drummer on the galley ship pushing those slaves to row. It wears on people and there's not an unlimited number of people to fill those positions. They've already raised their wages to entice people to stay, but that's a placebo IMO and a sign their prices will go up.
                                                                                I feel its exactly the opposite. They are almost at the point of completely taking over. They are basically a more efficient Walmart. They come into an area (with a warehouse capable of same day shipping as opposed to a big box store), undercut local businesses on price undercut suppliers with their own brands, put both suppliers and local businesses out of business, and then they are one of the only jobs hiring so they can keep wages low. Turnover might be high, but its been that way at UPS and Fedex for a long time.

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                                                                                • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
                                                                                  Looks like you're fairly new here and that's cool, but we've compared the Obama economy to the Trump economy (pre covid) several times in other threads. I don't want to do it again. It's exhausting and depressing lol.

                                                                                  Hint...it's not really close and for the 4th time in two days I'll refer to the numbers I posted a few pages back. You can't argue those. It would be like someone telling you ND went 8-4 this year instead of 10-2.

                                                                                  It's not hard to accept that the US is the most technologically advanced in the world. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed that our economy will grow, that small businesses will continue or thrive, that wages will keep rising, etc.
                                                                                  The Economics thread, if I recall, is where much of this Trump v Obama economies can be found.

                                                                                  From NDAccountant #1294:
                                                                                  First, I don't care for the Don. So don't take this as a defense of him. It isn't.

                                                                                  But let's talk the tax situation. I know it's murky and I know there are probably numerous areas that are riddled with favorable deductions that the courts will ultimately decide. So let's focus just on the situation, not who and how they got there.

                                                                                  Cash is cash. When someone invests (M&E, real estate, etc.) it's cash out the door and put into the economy. The amount of cash someone is willing to invest is based on the amount of cash the will receive back over time, whether that is through cost reduction, rent payments, dividends, or in some cases, the avoidance of future losses. The cash generated includes tax implications, including the deductions related to interest and depreciation. When Obama signed the accelerated depreciation into law in 2011/2012, it was estimated that it would reduce federal tax collections by $25B a year (at the time). I think most people would agree, from a purely economic viewpoint, that getting people to churn their investments into the economy is a good thing.

                                                                                  The minimal tax is a byproduct of two things. 1) You have highly leveraged individuals deducting significant amount of interest, which combined with depreciation, generates little or negative tax rates, which will be carried forward. 2) Imbalance in useful life assumptions across industries.

                                                                                  The last one is the true crux of the problem, though #1 is for a different reason. For example, there were special incentives put into a Farm Bill to speed up the depreciation for race horses far beyond what anyone would deem reasonable. As with most things in Washington, it is/was about how $ignificant the lobbying activity is for your chosen industry. I don't think this means our tax system is broken, or that simply raising rates is the solution. It isn't that simple and people will still find a way to dodge them so long as K street exists. That was the brilliance of the 9-9-9 plan. Now, we can debate the merits of sales vs personal income tax. But the simplicity of the tax is what is so attractive. But it was DOA because there is too much $$ spent on lobbying and lining the pockets of all politicians to ever have a change.

                                                                                  As for the issue with #1...it would help quite a bit if we actually allowed businesses to fail. We talk all we can about the employees. It isn't the employees that are bailed it, its the shareholders. If someone / some company is far too leveraged, well, that's on them. Take AMC movie theatres as example. They were far too leveraged and were much more financially aggressive than their peers. They should be held to account.
                                                                                  His #1295 is also worth considering. Rocket89 had a good comparison if I recall.
                                                                                  Last edited by Legacy; 01-25-2021, 02:04 PM.

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                                                                                  • Originally posted by SouthSideChiDomer View Post
                                                                                    I feel its exactly the opposite. They are almost at the point of completely taking over. They are basically a more efficient Walmart. They come into an area (with a warehouse capable of same day shipping as opposed to a big box store), undercut local businesses on price undercut suppliers with their own brands, put both suppliers and local businesses out of business, and then they are one of the only jobs hiring so they can keep wages low. Turnover might be high, but its been that way at UPS and Fedex for a long time.
                                                                                    I think that's their goal, but it's hard to factor in the "human" element and make it work IMO. As I mentioned, they have already increased wages and improved some benefits to keep people from leaving. It will retain some, but from what I've been told, employees have pretty demanding quotas to meet everyday.

                                                                                    Sallie Mae puts collection centers in small towns with high unemployment. Collections is very demanding and the turnover is unbelievable. It doesn't take long before they have trouble filling positions. Not quite apples to apples, but somewhat similar in philosophy.

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                                                                                    • There will be five press briefings this week. The Covid briefings will be three times a week. Ted Cruz still has the most punchable face in the Senate, which is a dubious honor.

                                                                                      Loving C-SPAN again.
                                                                                      It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                                                                                      • Great job the New York Times, too, BTW. Nothing like the 78 year old man wearing a Rolex that belonged to his deceased son being the latest hill they chose to die on. I look forward to their next round of "Nazi next door in Ohio" pieces.

                                                                                        Again, thank you, New York Times. You're good for a few letdowns for both sides of the fence, which may well end up uniting America.

                                                                                        Biden won't be golfing every single weekend, which should save tax payers several more pennies than a Rolex.
                                                                                        It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                                                                                        • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post
                                                                                          There will be five press briefings this week. The Covid briefings will be three times a week. Ted Cruz still has the most punchable face in the Senate, which is a dubious honor.

                                                                                          Loving C-SPAN again.
                                                                                          Schumer wears that crown.

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                                                                                          • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                                                                            Schumer wears that crown.


                                                                                            I'm confident in my answer.
                                                                                            It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

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                                                                                            • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post


                                                                                              I'm confident in my answer.
                                                                                              Hello

                                                                                              What did Davonte do?

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                                                                                              • Mazie Horono, Dick Blumenthal, Corey Booker, Tim Kaine and Diane Feinstein would be top of my list but Mitt Romney finishes a close second to Chuck U Schumer.

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                                                                                                • I'll just leave this right here and drop the mic and walk away.

                                                                                                  Winners see success and want to climb up to its level. Losers see success and want to drag it down to their own.

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                                                                                                  • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post


                                                                                                    I'm confident in my answer.
                                                                                                    Racist
                                                                                                    Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                                                                                    • Originally posted by Bishop2b5 View Post
                                                                                                      I'll just leave this right here and drop the mic and walk away.

                                                                                                      I was sticking to the Senate but you have identified the most punchable face in the Swamp

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