Biden Presidency

[TorontoGold]

Ehhe. Depends, are you one of those goofy $15/hr zealots or? Minimum wage is tricky. A 15 year old kid working at the local tastee freeze doesn't deserve $15/hr.

When I got my first job in....2007, at the Dairy Queen, I got $5.85/hr. Minimum wage at the time. The places around town have signs up now advertising they'll pay $14/hr starting out now, though minimum wage is $7.25. I cleaned, took orders, and made the best blizzard in town (extra topping babyyy), but I wasn't worth much more than what I was paid.

I'm not a fan of the national minimum wage. I'm sure economists have all sorts of powerful arguments for and against it. Just not really sure why a minimum wage employee in Cando, North Dakota (pop ~1000) (avg home value: $90K, roughly $100K below state average) should be mandated to get the same wage as a minimum wage employee in San Fran or Manhattan where two-bedroom apartments typically are $3-4k (pre-pandemic), and purchasing an apartment or home will cost you absurd amounts of money.

Seems to me the market does a decent job with wages. Out in the oil patch when I was in high school, their McDonald's were giving signing bonuses and like $15/hr. That was back in like 2009.

If we are going to have a minimum wage, ii think it should be geared towards areas where the cost of living is lower rather than higher, otherwise you might wreck businesses operating in low income areas. I dont think there is anything preventing cities and states from implementing their own minimum wages and I'm pretty sure some have.

A living wage varies from county to county, or even town to town within a county, I'm very reluctant to have some national wage mandated by people in Congress when states, counties, and municipalities are probably better equipped to figure out the right balance.

With immigration, I have no problem with them making things easier on folks to come. I understand that our friends South of the border enjoy coming up here to do work that citizens in the states down there are less willing to do. We even get some up here that work in the ag industry.

I do have an issue when people don't follow the rules. I don't want coming illegally to be rewarded. This shit has been going on for so long though. Not an easy situation to get sorted out.

The only idea I have (its probably terrible) would be to give some sort of amnesty for some period of time and create some sort of work permit system at state and federal levels so that we can at least sorta keep track of who is here. Give the folks here an opportunity to fix their status.

The other thing (that will never happen) I'd like to see is get rid of natural born citizens. If your parents are here on vacation or illegally and you are born here, I don't think you should be an American citizen. If they are living here legally, welcome to the gang. I'm assuming that'll make it easier for parents to obtain more permanent status as well?

At the end of the day, it might even serve my political goals. Hispanics/Latinos(whatever term is in vogue rn) tend to be pretty conservative and religious people. They are coming here no matter what we do, so might as well try to figure out a way to conform national policy to the reality on the ground.

Rant against national increase to minimum wage and stupid thoughts on illegal immigration over.

You're old af. Also, those rent figures for Manhattan and San Fran are a lot lower than what get's advertised up here. We're told to be lucky we only pay $2,500 for a one bed room apartment in TO.

In terms of minimum wages an extremely simplified take - if you peg it to the state's CPI, you can help alleviate any concerns that powerhouse states like Texas/NY/CA are propping up costs in welfare states like NM that would cause the minimum wage hike to "destroy" businesses. Think Whiskey has probably got like 4 articles ready on this (although he doesn't understand the economy ;) )

[drayer54]

You could be an AM Radio producer with the way you frame this stuff.

Does anyone in your world ask to hear economists' views on the complicated pros and cons of immigration?

1) We don't have an "open border," save that for your AM Radio show.
.

Accusing those with views you don't care for of being tied to AM radio is rude and outdated. We're on podcasts now.

Also- You can have your masterclass from Paul Krugman and continue to assume that the rest of us just spew truck stop gossip.

[Irish#1]

1) We don't have an "open border," save that for your AM Radio show.

What we have is the equivalent of a Dutch door on a house with only the bottom closed.

Because it works for monied interests. Labor gets in the country because it's frankly impossible to police a border like some assume we can.

Maybe we shouldn't have put a halt on building the additional walls.

Ehhe. Depends, are you one of those goofy $15/hr zealots or? Minimum wage is tricky. A 15 year old kid working at the local tastee freeze doesn't deserve $15/hr.

When I got my first job in....2007, at the Dairy Queen, I got $5.85/hr.

My first job was Dairy Queen at $1.15 an hour! Increase minimum wage and small businesses will decrease their work staff to compensate. The alternatives are to increase prices and risk losing business or take less profit, but many small businesses don't make much profit in the first place.

What's everyone's thoughts on giving those that come across the border something like a relief check similar to the Covid payment so they can get established?

[BilboBaggins]

Accusing those with views you don't care for of being tied to AM radio is rude and outdated. We're on podcasts now.

Stop giving his takes credit by calling them "views" when they are intentionally obfuscating a discussion like an AM radio producer would.

Also- You can have your masterclass from Paul Krugman and continue to assume that the rest of us just spew truck stop gossip.

It's Paul Krugman vs. the world.....or the overwhelming majority of economists and thinktanks, including conservative entities like CATO, who discuss the pros and cons of immigration with more context than "open borders + welfare state = collapse."

You can't go around spouting worn-out bullshit talking points and hide behind "other views" lol immigration is complicated AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION MADE SOME GOOD CHANGES but these conversations don't get anywhere because some posters here paint everything with Rush Limbaugh glasses on.

[BilboBaggins]

What we have is the equivalent of a Dutch door on a house with only the bottom closed.

No what we have is net-negative Mexican immigration (for over a decade) while Asian/other immigrants just overstay their visas.

Maybe we shouldn't have put a halt on building the additional walls.

It might be more productive to recognize that illegal immigration is coming via the air and that walls don't work.

[NorthDakota]

You're old af. Also, those rent figures for Manhattan and San Fran are a lot lower than what get's advertised up here. We're told to be lucky we only pay $2,500 for a one bed room apartment in TO.

In terms of minimum wages an extremely simplified take - if you peg it to the state's CPI, you can help alleviate any concerns that powerhouse states like Texas/NY/CA are propping up costs in welfare states like NM that would cause the minimum wage hike to "destroy" businesses. Think Whiskey has probably got like 4 articles ready on this (although he doesn't understand the economy ;) )

My knees and back remind me every day how old I am. ;)

Prices in NYC are goofy. Pre-pandemic, a cheap studio would run about 2K. A one bedroom probably 2.5K. Two beds, 2.5-3K. For cheap ones...keep in mind. San Fran might be different, not sure on that

Now prices for studios have dropped a lot. 1 and 2 bedrooms can be had for 2K. I think a lot of people left the city as their leases expired and are not coming back until their work is no longer remote, or perhaps they were going to leave at some point soon anyway and this just expedited their plans. NY probably isn't getting many folks moving in now, at least until the city is open for business, so in the meantime prices go way down.

If they want to use state CPI figures, I would not be nearly as opposed.

[RDU Irish]

Because it works for monied interests. Labor gets in the country because it's frankly impossible to police a border like some assume we can. Labor can't organize so wages are suppressed. It works for labor because it's still better than Mexico since...it's not Mexico. It works for politicians because they can antagonize the takers and let people talk about the impending "collapse".

You'll know Congress is serious about stopping illegal immigration when they throw some corporate leaders in jail for hiring illegal immigrants. Until then it's all political theater and we'll "create some jobs" by building an ineffective wall.



Hey that's 10,000 + 201 damnit ;)

It will be small town restaurants closed for hiring illegals or non-grata politicians or conservative moguls with an illegal nanny getting thrown in jail. Nancy Pelosi and Mitt Romney will never be worried about who is mowing their lawn or painting their large fence keeping out the unwashed masses - those servants will be protected from ICE and paid below minimum wage in cash.

[TorontoGold]

My knees and back remind me every day how old I am. ;)

Prices in NYC are goofy. Pre-pandemic, a cheap studio would run about 2K. A one bedroom probably 2.5K. Two beds, 2.5-3K. For cheap ones...keep in mind. San Fran might be different, not sure on that

Now prices for studios have dropped a lot. 1 and 2 bedrooms can be had for 2K. I think a lot of people left the city as their leases expired and are not coming back until their work is no longer remote, or perhaps they were going to leave at some point soon anyway and this just expedited their plans. NY probably isn't getting many folks moving in now, at least until the city is open for business, so in the meantime prices go way down.

If they want to use state CPI figures, I would not be nearly as opposed.

I think CPI figures would be best, because otherwise it's just one side giving arbitrary numbers that are bound to be politicized in one way or another. People should be most concerned about spending their money on the goods in the CPI, so if the CPI goes up the min wage should follow it.

[RDU Irish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A02ciYFzTHw

LOL - Minimum wage is racist. It is a historical fact.

[BilboBaggins]

It will be small town restaurants closed for hiring illegals or non-grata politicians or conservative moguls with an illegal nanny getting thrown in jail. Nancy Pelosi and Mitt Romney will never be worried about who is mowing their lawn or painting their large fence keeping out the unwashed masses - those servants will be protected from ICE and paid below minimum wage in cash.

Or the chicken processing facilities with hundreds. Just saying, when white collar employers get the jail sentences then I'll believe the government actually cares about stopping illegal immigration.

[BilboBaggins]

If the Dow closes where it's at today, it'll a record high.

Joe Biden = America's greatest economic President?

[NorthDakota]

Joe Biden is America's greatest economic President.

FIFY

[IrishRazor82]

Federal govt thinking they need to update the minimum wage for all 50 states is the dumbest.

So no surprise here.

[BilboBaggins]

Sign me up for a national mimimum wage of $10.00.

[drayer54]

You're old af. Also, those rent figures for Manhattan and San Fran are a lot lower than what get's advertised up here. We're told to be lucky we only pay $2,500 for a one bed room apartment in TO.

In terms of minimum wages an extremely simplified take - if you peg it to the state's CPI, you can help alleviate any concerns that powerhouse states like Texas/NY/CA are propping up costs in welfare states like NM that would cause the minimum wage hike to "destroy" businesses. Think Whiskey has probably got like 4 articles ready on this (although he doesn't understand the economy ;) )

I had to read this twice but I think we agree. What makes sense in NY doesn't always make sense in NM. State CPI set it and forget it.

I always like giving states more control and moving it away from DC.

[TorontoGold]

I had to read this twice but I think we agree. What makes sense in NY doesn't always make sense in NM. State CPI set it and forget it.

I always like giving states more control and moving it away from DC.

100%, I think the goal should be to get to a place where no matter the state someone who's working 50 hours a week isn't completely screwed. No magic wand for this but there needs to be a metric that it gets pegged to so that in 20 years no one looks back goes "Why hasn't the minimum wage changed?"

[drayer54]

100%, I think the goal should be to get to a place where no matter the state someone who's working 50 hours a week isn't completely screwed. No magic wand for this but there needs to be a metric that it gets pegged to so that in 20 years no one looks back goes "Why hasn't the minimum wage changed?"

The minimum wage is a floor. The market has generally moved ahead of minimum wage anyways. Most of the now hiring signs I see here in Indiana are 10-15/hr anyways.

[ab2cmiller]

The minimum wage is a floor. The market has generally moved ahead of minimum wage anyways. Most of the now hiring signs I see here in Indiana are 10-15/hr anyways.

Agreed. You could probably change minimum wage to $10 and it wouldn't really change much. Change it to $15 and you would likely see elimination of some jobs from the market as businesses try to get by with less workers.

[Cackalacky2.0]

IDK about anywhere else but in Sac we have the $7.25 minimum wage but waiters and waitresses make only$2.50 per hour plus tips.

[NorthDakota]

IDK about anywhere else but in Sac we have the $7.25 minimum wage but waiters and waitresses make only$2.50 per hour plus tips.

Same deal here.

[ab2cmiller]

IDK about anywhere else but in Sac we have the $7.25 minimum wage but waiters and waitresses make only$2.50 per hour plus tips.

Wonder if Restaurants adjusted their pay structure at all during COVID. Obviously can't make as much money on tips when the restaurant is only 25% full. I suppose they could've just laid off most of the waiters and waitresses so that they are still taking care of the same number of tables.

2.50 plus tips can be very good, but it depends on how nice the restaurant is.

[Cackalacky2.0]

Wonder if Restaurants adjusted their pay structure at all during COVID. Obviously can't make as much money on tips when the restaurant is only 25% full. I suppose they could've just laid off most of the waiters and waitresses so that they are still taking care of the same number of tables.

2.50 plus tips can be very good, but it depends on how nice the restaurant is.

They laid off the staff. $2.50/hr barely covers taxes on reported taxes. For (6)12-hr shifts I’ll let you do the math on the take home. I always tip 20% in cash base. More if service is good.

[Blazers46]

Agreed. You could probably change minimum wage to $10 and it wouldn't really change much. Change it to $15 and you would likely see elimination of some jobs from the market as businesses try to get by with less workers.

We have eliminated jobs at our store and our farm with just the threat of hikes. Not saying we have fired people but when someone leaves we offer other existing staff more to do more. We have been able to the same with less people and less payroll.

[Cackalacky2.0]

We have eliminated jobs at our store and our farm with just the threat of hikes. Not saying we have fired people but when someone leaves we offer other existing staff more to do more. We have been able to the same with less people and less payroll.

Well that’s generally how it goes right. With more money comes more responsibility or more tasks. Downsize and shunt tasks to others and give a 3%raise. Yeah?

At some point the staff will have too much to do or get overworked.

[NorthDakota]

They laid off the staff. $2.50/hr barely covers taxes on reported taxes. For (6)12-hr shifts I’ll let you do the math on the take home. I always tip 20% in cash base. More if service is good.

I stick with 15% unless I'm a regular or the waitress is a friend outside or work.

My neighbor in college was a waitress. If I recall, she estimated she made about $15/hr but she worked at a pretty popular place.

[Cackalacky2.0]

I stick with 15% unless I'm a regular or the waitress is a friend outside or work.

My neighbor in college was a waitress. If I recall, she estimated she made about $15/hr but she worked at a pretty popular place.

Both me and my wife worked our way through college as kitchen and waitstaff. I tip 20%. Lol

[Blazers46]

Wonder if Restaurants adjusted their pay structure at all during COVID. Obviously can't make as much money on tips when the restaurant is only 25% full. I suppose they could've just laid off most of the waiters and waitresses so that they are still taking care of the same number of tables.

2.50 plus tips can be very good, but it depends on how nice the restaurant is.

Depends on location. Here in NM we still have no dine in service. I have friends that own restaurants and they sort of brag about less overhead. Depending on the establishment some are actually doing better in sales and some less. But with the diminished overhead some are comfortble with less sales.

I don't know why servers getting paid only $2.50 bothers me. Most servers I talk to rarely ever complain about take home pay after tips, and restaurantss never complain about paying $2.50. I guess its jealously that I have employees at the store and farm that I pay and then I come and eat and I am essentially paying their employees too. I pay my retail staff to give a good customer experience and then I pay my friends waitress at his restaurant to do the same. I am totally jealous.

[Polish Leppy 22]

America has relied on immigrant workers from south of the border for 100 years. I think I remember BB did a great post a few years back on this. There have been tons of studies showing it is intentional and necessary to have Low wage earning immigrants do the terribly back breaking work no American will do. These people feed billions of people all over the world and they contribute to many types of usage taxes to local and state entities. Their children ARE citizens and they get the benefit of being a citizen AFAIAC



Further we aren’t being overwhelmed with immigration it’s actually pretty static overall. Plus if you look at what they actually receive in “welfare” they receive far less than TRUE American citizens.

What you're talking about isn't close to what I was talking about, and still didn't answer my question: What would Canada or Mexico do if we handed them 100,000 people and said, "here, these people all need housing, food, healthcare, and education. And you have to pay for it."

Second, I'm all for legal immigration. But let's play the numbers game. If you're an illegal immigrant making minimum wage (or even above), but your housing is subsidized and your children are getting a free education, then it's a net loss for that municipality/ state.

Third, we'll always have immigrants but let's pretend for one day there were none, and those hard labor jobs were still necessary, the ones you claim Americans won't do them. If farms/ warehouses/ factories still need to produce and are short on labor, the wage which they offer will have to increase. Americans will do the work, but they won't do it for $8 an hour.

Fourth, if anyone is working in this country and sending money to their home family in another country, we're at a net loss.

Last, if we weren't overwhelmed we wouldn't need expanded "overflow facilities."

[Polish Leppy 22]

I don't think anyone is saying that. You are the one saying the Biden Administration is being hypocritical...but all that's happening here is that you're being intentionally ignorant of the fact that people were upset with the way the Trump Administration handled illegal immigrants/asylum seekers.



Yeah man, because it's either sleeping on dirt or a Hilton.

You could be an AM Radio producer with the way you frame this stuff.



Does anyone in your world ask to hear economists' views on the complicated pros and cons of immigration?



1) We don't have an "open border," save that for your AM Radio show.
2) We don't have a "welfare state" either.
3) Economists really aren't on board with the "collapse" scare tactic. I'd argue common sense isn't either.



Which if you read the article you'd see that COVID-19 is the reason they needed to open the additional space so people could space out.

1. I didn't say Biden was hypocritical. I did say GoIrish41 was, and he absolutely is on this topic. Biden's doing what he has to do.

2. You have a weird obsession with AM radio.

3. I'm not anti immigration. I'm pro legal immigration. I know people who waited 6-7 years to come here legally, assimilated, got jobs, pay taxes, contribute, and vote. And they're very happy to be here.

4. We aren't at the point of open borders and a welfare state and I didn't say that we are, but nice try. I was pointing out that no country can have both and we're flirting with it, have been for quite some time.

5. If you saw the Reuters article from 2/2 you would know I was referring to the announcement from the Biden Admin that they promised undocumented migrants "equal access" to the Covid 19 vaccine as other Americans do. US soldiers protecting the capitol are told to sleep in a garage, undocumented immigrants come on down for your vaccine. Amazing.

[Polish Leppy 22]

Stop giving his takes credit by calling them "views" when they are intentionally obfuscating a discussion like an AM radio producer would.



It's Paul Krugman vs. the world.....or the overwhelming majority of economists and thinktanks, including conservative entities like CATO, who discuss the pros and cons of immigration with more context than "open borders + welfare state = collapse."

You can't go around spouting worn-out bullshit talking points and hide behind "other views" lol immigration is complicated AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION MADE SOME GOOD CHANGES but these conversations don't get anywhere because some posters here paint everything with Rush Limbaugh glasses on.

OK, I'll do what Buster does. Watch how easy this is:

"Stop, Buster. You sound like a 23 year old on pod save America. Get a grip and stop spitting out DNC talking points. Everything you say sounds like it came out of a college faculty room."

[Cackalacky2.0]

What you're talking about isn't close to what I was talking about, and still didn't answer my question: What would Canada or Mexico do if we handed them 100,000 people and said, "here, these people all need housing, food, healthcare, and education. And you have to pay for it."

Second, I'm all for legal immigration. But let's play the numbers game. If you're an illegal immigrant making minimum wage (or even above), but your housing is subsidized and your children are getting a free education, then it's a net loss for that municipality/ state.

Third, we'll always have immigrants but let's pretend for one day there were none, and those hard labor jobs were still necessary, the ones you claim Americans won't do them. If farms/ warehouses/ factories still need to produce and are short on labor, the wage which they offer will have to increase. Americans will do the work, but they won't do it for $8 an hour.

Fourth, if anyone is working in this country and sending money to their home family in another country, we're at a net loss.

Last, if we weren't overwhelmed we wouldn't need expanded "overflow facilities."

I dont know where to begin with this....let me ponder a bit and get back :)

[RDU Irish]

What you're talking about isn't close to what I was talking about, and still didn't answer my question: What would Canada or Mexico do if we handed them 100,000 people and said, "here, these people all need housing, food, healthcare, and education. And you have to pay for it."

Second, I'm all for legal immigration. But let's play the numbers game. If you're an illegal immigrant making minimum wage (or even above), but your housing is subsidized and your children are getting a free education, then it's a net loss for that municipality/ state.

Third, we'll always have immigrants but let's pretend for one day there were none, and those hard labor jobs were still necessary, the ones you claim Americans won't do them. If farms/ warehouses/ factories still need to produce and are short on labor, the wage which they offer will have to increase. Americans will do the work, but they won't do it for $8 an hour.

Fourth, if anyone is working in this country and sending money to their home family in another country, we're at a net loss.

Last, if we weren't overwhelmed we wouldn't need expanded "overflow facilities."

Huge part of Latin American economies. I don't see it as a big negative though.

https://www.pymnts.com/news/internat...states-record/

[drayer54]

The most pro-woman administration in history will no longer deport illegal immigrants for sexual assault, rape, or DUIs. #Winning

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02...migration-ice/

[ab2cmiller]

The most pro-woman administration in history will no longer deport illegal immigrants for sexual assault, rape, or DUIs. #Winning

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02...migration-ice/

Looks like illegal immigrants would be deported for sexual assault and rape.

However, it does look like if the "aggravated felony" occurred more than 10 years ago and was not the reason for current arrest, those felons could stay.

[drayer54]

Looks like illegal immigrants would be deported for sexual assault and rape.

However, it does look like if the "aggravated felony" occurred more than 10 years ago and was not the reason for current arrest, those felons could stay.

Looks like Democrats have prioritized illegal immigrants over public safety. Something to remember when they mutter public safety when defending crap bills like HR 127.

[Blazers46]

Looks like Democrats have prioritized illegal immigrants over public safety. Something to remember when they mutter public safety when defending crap bills like HR 127.

There is some chatter down here about public safety. We just had a state officer shot and killed and another wounded after a traffic stop. They conducted the traffic stop as part of a DHS drug investigation that was as wide as NM/West Texas and Mexico. This was a day after a car was pulled over linked to the same investigation that ended with the car dragging a police officer. I know its not Bidens fault, its typical borderland stuff that pops off once in awhile. But its got the locals pointing fingers indiscreetly. But it has been a reminder how important border security is and has been for the borderland areas.

[Irish#1]

About 1 1/2 - 2 years ago, there was an illegal immigrant here in Indy that was driving drunk on the highway. IIRC he was going the wrong way. Regardless, he slammed into a car that was on the shoulder because of a flat tire. Killed one good samaritan who happened to stop to assist the driver with a flat. Found out the dude had been arrested for DUI several times before.

Look at the bright side. By ignoring these crimes the stats will look better.

[Legacy]

Without making judgements on specific instances, we need to eliminate withholding federal funding for states who will not reveal immigration status of anyone jailed, encourage civilian reporting of crimes regardless of their immigration status while focusing on those drug and violent crimes with limited resources. Since the "national emergency", border patrol agents were shifted from BP checkpoints at Interstates and major highways.

The episode in southern NM is very tragic. Drugs. A felon. I don't see that he was an illegal immigrant.

https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/new...ry/4421179001/

https://kvia.com/news/crime/2021/02/...-nmsp-officer/

Hopefully this will lead to more arrests of the dangerous Americans who facilitate the drug trade in border states.

[Cackalacky2.0]

My best friend did the exact same thing. Had 3 DUIs prior and driving under suspended license. Killed a guy changing his tire at 3am. He wasnt an illegal immigrant. What does being illegal immigrant matter in this scenario. Im really interested.

My friend was given every effort to change his behavior multiple times,... rehab, multiple reduced sentences or no sentence at all if entered into rehab. We did multiple interventions, then he disappeared for three months and found him in the papers after killing a person with his car.

[Blazers46]

Without making judgements on specific instances, we need to eliminate withholding federal funding for states who will not reveal immigration status of anyone jailed, encourage civilian reporting of crimes regardless of their immigration status while focusing on those drug and violent crimes with limited resources. Since the "national emergency", border patrol agents were shifted from BP checkpoints at Interstates and major highways.

The episode in southern NM is very tragic. Drugs. A felon. I don't see that he was an illegal immigrant.

https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/new...ry/4421179001/

https://kvia.com/news/crime/2021/02/...-nmsp-officer/

Hopefully this will lead to more arrests of the dangerous Americans who facilitate the drug trade in border states.

I am not saying he was or was not, I am just saying it was Transnational Homeland Securty investigation in regard to border security.

[TorontoGold]

My best friend did the exact same thing. Had 3 DUIs prior and driving under suspended license. Killed a guy changing his tire at 3am. He wasnt an illegal immigrant. What does being illegal immigrant matter in this scenario. Im really interested.

Did a really quick search on papers/studies that looked at the correlation between crime rates of illegal immigrants and native-born citizens (people born in the US). Of course big disclaimer that the studies are like the first three I saw so it's not meant to be "aha! Got ya!".

From these studies it seems like the answer is somewhere between illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than native-born American's, and that its tough to get solid data one way or the other. It is interesting to see many so sure that illegals drive crime, would like to see the papers/studies that support that logic.

Anecdotal evidence is fine for personal experiences, can be dangerous for painting broad strokes.

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/51/32340
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-resear...ration-crime-0
https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-im...ssing-evidence

[BilboBaggins]

Did a really quick search on papers/studies that looked at the correlation between crime rates of illegal immigrants and native-born citizens (people born in the US). Of course big disclaimer that the studies are like the first three I saw so it's not meant to be "aha! Got ya!".

From these studies it seems like the answer is somewhere between illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than native-born American's, and that its tough to get solid data one way or the other. It is interesting to see many so sure that illegals drive crime, would like to see the papers/studies that support that logic.

Anecdotal evidence is fine for personal experiences, can be dangerous for painting broad strokes.

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/51/32340
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-resear...ration-crime-0
https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-im...ssing-evidence

Their response is always that any crime is unnecessary and unjustifiable.

Which then gets us back to the fact that 85% of illegal immigrants have been here for more than a decade and cannot be removed without causing significant upheaval to communities across the country, including the well-being of the millions of American citizens who have illegal immigrant parents.

And then we repeat this in six months.

[Cackalacky2.0]

Did a really quick search on papers/studies that looked at the correlation between crime rates of illegal immigrants and native-born citizens (people born in the US). Of course big disclaimer that the studies are like the first three I saw so it's not meant to be "aha! Got ya!".

From these studies it seems like the answer is somewhere between illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than native-born American's, and that its tough to get solid data one way or the other. It is interesting to see many so sure that illegals drive crime, would like to see the papers/studies that support that logic.

Anecdotal evidence is fine for personal experiences, can be dangerous for painting broad strokes.

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/51/32340
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-resear...ration-crime-0
https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-im...ssing-evidence

Yeah thats my understanding to. Immigrants do a lot of things at much lower rates than normal citizens including receiving welfare but this doesn't stop the debunked canards from being lobbed out all the time anyway.

My overall point is the status of the person committing the crime is irrelevant. It has no bearing on the crime committed or the victims except on how they are handled in the CJ system after the fact.

[Cackalacky2.0]

Their response is always that any crime is unnecessary and unjustifiable.

Which then gets us back to the fact that 85% of illegal immigrants have been here for more than a decade and cannot be removed without causing significant upheaval to communities across the country, including the well-being of the millions of American citizens who have illegal immigrant parents.

And then we repeat this in six months.

Or when the next caravan gets moving.

[RDU Irish]

Their response is always that any crime is unnecessary and unjustifiable.

Which then gets us back to the fact that 85% of illegal immigrants have been here for more than a decade and cannot be removed without causing significant upheaval to communities across the country, including the well-being of the millions of American citizens who have illegal immigrant parents.

And then we repeat this in six months.

Anyone who thinks deportation of all illegals is the answer is just grandstanding - really just promoting the status quo. Even the fear mongers are catering a bit to status quo - they want millions living in fear of deportation.

Bringing these populations out of the shadows is more important for real public safety than deporting the handful of rapists and derelicts.

How freaking hard is it to document everyone and let them stay without granting citizenship willy nilly?

[TorontoGold]

Their response is always that any crime is unnecessary and unjustifiable.

Which then gets us back to the fact that 85% of illegal immigrants have been here for more than a decade and cannot be removed without causing significant upheaval to communities across the country, including the well-being of the millions of American citizens who have illegal immigrant parents.

And then we repeat this in six months.

Yeah, the "one life is too many" card is selectively played.

I just want to know how the rational behind the thought "immigrants cause crime", trying to give them the benefit of the doubt instead of just "Brown people are bad, they commit crime".

[Cackalacky2.0]

Anyone who thinks deportation of all illegals is the answer is just grandstanding - really just promoting the status quo. Even the fear mongers are catering a bit to status quo - they want millions living in fear of deportation.

Bringing these populations out of the shadows is more important for real public safety than deporting the handful of rapists and derelicts.

How freaking hard is it to document everyone and let them stay without granting citizenship willy nilly?

Cant rep would rep

[Irish#1]

My best friend did the exact same thing. Had 3 DUIs prior and driving under suspended license. Killed a guy changing his tire at 3am. He wasnt an illegal immigrant. What does being illegal immigrant matter in this scenario. Im really interested.

My friend was given every effort to change his behavior multiple times,... rehab, multiple reduced sentences or no sentence at all if entered into rehab. We did multiple interventions, then he disappeared for three months and found him in the papers after killing a person with his car.

Quite simple. If he wasn't here illegally, this probably doesn't happen. Now you can say if he was here legally it could still happen, which is possible. However, that's not the case and if he would have been deported when he was found to be here illegally the odds of this happening are extremely low.

Sorry to hear about your friend. Had to be extremely hard on his family.

[Irish#1]

Did a really quick search on papers/studies that looked at the correlation between crime rates of illegal immigrants and native-born citizens (people born in the US). Of course big disclaimer that the studies are like the first three I saw so it's not meant to be "aha! Got ya!".

From these studies it seems like the answer is somewhere between illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than native-born American's, and that its tough to get solid data one way or the other. It is interesting to see many so sure that illegals drive crime, would like to see the papers/studies that support that logic.

Anecdotal evidence is fine for personal experiences, can be dangerous for painting broad strokes.

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/51/32340
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-resear...ration-crime-0
https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-im...ssing-evidence

Their response is always that any crime is unnecessary and unjustifiable.

Which then gets us back to the fact that 85% of illegal immigrants have been here for more than a decade and cannot be removed without causing significant upheaval to communities across the country, including the well-being of the millions of American citizens who have illegal immigrant parents.

And then we repeat this in six months.

Yeah thats my understanding to. Immigrants do a lot of things at much lower rates than normal citizens including receiving welfare but this doesn't stop the debunked canards from being lobbed out all the time anyway.

My overall point is the status of the person committing the crime is irrelevant. It has no bearing on the crime committed or the victims except on how they are handled in the CJ system after the fact.

Yeah, the "one life is too many" card is selectively played.

I just want to know how the rational behind the thought "immigrants cause crime", trying to give them the benefit of the doubt instead of just "Brown people are bad, they commit crime".

Okay, whomever said illegals create crime at a greater rate raise their hand! Bueller? Bueller? I certainly didn't and if that's what you read into my comment, shame on you. Without even researching, I would assume that illegals crime rates/statistics are lower than a U.S citizen. Being here illegally they don't want any attention so they are on their best behavior. My point about my post was that if that dude hadn't been here illegally, the life of a man isn't taken. And you can search this entire site and you will never find a post where I advocate for sending all illegals home.

[Irish#1]

Cant rep would rep

Done