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  • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

    Right but your peer countries should never be places like Rwanda or Turkmenistan. There's no excuse for jailing your citizens that much. American's for the large part aren't violent animals that need to be locked up.
    I disagree. I think the US has a massive under-incarceration problem.

    When I see 63k violent criminals being released back into the streets of California (LINK)- I see insanity. Violent people belong behind bars and shouldn't plea bargain away their time. I'm not talking about stashing the jails with pot users. I'm talking about people who commit violent crimes. Crimes with guns. Robbery. Rape. Arson. Murder.

    Remember the guy who attacked the Asian woman in NYC that got lots of attention? He was on parole for murdering his mother. Should have been behind bars.

    The guy that shot people up outside of the fancy NYC restaurant a few days back? Repeat criminal with warrants and firearm charges who should have been... behind bars.

    We live in a country with few consequences. We don't punish kids in schools anymore. My school had a paddle. My kids are with entitled brats who have positive reinforcement. No discipline allowed. My wife's a teacher and hates it. The admin is terrified to punish certain kids over perceptions.

    It doesn't stop in school though. Big City DA's are letting bad people walk the streets.

    No big deal. I'm sure we won't see his face again.

    Those two girls who dragged the uber eats driver to his death in DC a few weeks back won't get jail. There's a reason they were more upset about losing the cellphone than the dead guy. The cell phone was the biggest consequence.

    Don't forget that bail is somehow a bad thing now and we're just tossing the criminals right back out. NY bail reform law will keep me out of that state forever. I once lived in Saratoga, but won't return.
    A reputed gang member who was freed without bail despite attempted-murder charges allegedly went on a crime spree that included dragging an NYPD officer with a car Friday — enraging the city’s top cop.

    The same people who want gun control refuse to push laws that will work because it leads to further incarceration. They also won't enforce laws on the books for the same reason. If you commit a violent crime with a firearm or are a prohibited carrier- guess where you belong? But Nah, let's stop people from being able to defend themselves from the violent criminals we're releasing by the thousands. Ultra lib District Attorneys in high-crime cities are more responsible than anyone for surging crime right now.

    We're looking at increasing crime, decreasing prosecution, more released violent criminals, skyrocketing gun sales, open borders, and the land of zero consequences. It's basically the old west in certain places. This isn't hard. We need more incarceration and we need it now.

    Imagine living in a city experiencing surging crime and the highest murder rate in 50 years and the left-wing lunatics in charge cut 4 million and a hundred officers? It's insanity. Not like the DA would prosecute anyone they arrest anyways.

    The best part of this. You know who would have agreed with me and been right? 1990s Joe Biden.
    Running the damn ball since 2017.

    Comment


    • That is certainly a take. Any thoughts on how to provide rehabilitation to people in jail?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post
        That is certainly a take. Any thoughts on how to provide rehabilitation to people in jail?


        I don't love the idea of people in bars, but it works to keep the good people safe. Not sure why the country is drifting from this.

        Running the damn ball since 2017.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post



          I don't love the idea of people in bars, but it works to keep the good people safe. Not sure why the country is drifting from this.
          Which of the countries on the list I previously posted, are success stories for having mass incarceration?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

            Which of the countries on the list I previously posted, are success stories for having mass incarceration?
            First one that came to mind was UAE. Now there are far too many variables to do apples to oranges with any of these.

            But...

            The top 10 safest countries, as at July 2020 are:
            1. Qatar
            2. Taiwan
            3. UAE
            4. Georgia
            5. Oman
            6. Hong Kong
            7. Slovenia
            8. Isle of Man
            9. Switzerland
            10. Japan
            According to the report, the least safe countries are:
            1. Venezuela
            2. Papua New Guinea
            3. South Africa
            4. Afghanistan
            5. Honduras
            6. Trinidad And Tobago
            7. Brazil
            8. Guyana
            9. El Salvador
            10. Syria

            I love the UAE. Been 12 times. May move there if the Dems destroy this one much more. But you aren't getting a cake DA, bail free experience in the UAE. You mess up and your butt is going to be punished. Punishment is what works. Consequences.

            Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe than in the United States for similar offenses. Persons violating Emirati laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested, imprisoned, or prevented from traveling and their passport held by local authorities for extended periods of time. U.S. citizens have been arrested in the past for obscene hand gestures, using inappropriate (foul) language with a police official, and for public displays of affection, such as kissing. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in the United Arab Emirates are severe. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences, heavy fines, and deportation. It is possible to be convicted for drug possession based on the result of a drug test even if no other evidence exists, regardless of when or where the consumption originally occurred. https://www.countryreports.org/count...lpenalties.htm


            The bottom 10 countries look like the ones we should not be concerned about flooding our southern border.
            Running the damn ball since 2017.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

              First one that came to mind was UAE. Now there are far too many variables to do apples to oranges with any of these.

              But...

              The top 10 safest countries, as at July 2020 are:
              1. Qatar
              2. Taiwan
              3. UAE
              4. Georgia
              5. Oman
              6. Hong Kong
              7. Slovenia
              8. Isle of Man
              9. Switzerland
              10. Japan
              According to the report, the least safe countries are:
              1. Venezuela
              2. Papua New Guinea
              3. South Africa
              4. Afghanistan
              5. Honduras
              6. Trinidad And Tobago
              7. Brazil
              8. Guyana
              9. El Salvador
              10. Syria

              I love the UAE. Been 12 times. May move there if the Dems destroy this one much more. But you aren't getting a cake DA, bail free experience in the UAE. You mess up and your butt is going to be punished. Punishment is what works. Consequences.

              Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe than in the United States for similar offenses. Persons violating Emirati laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested, imprisoned, or prevented from traveling and their passport held by local authorities for extended periods of time. U.S. citizens have been arrested in the past for obscene hand gestures, using inappropriate (foul) language with a police official, and for public displays of affection, such as kissing. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in the United Arab Emirates are severe. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences, heavy fines, and deportation. It is possible to be convicted for drug possession based on the result of a drug test even if no other evidence exists, regardless of when or where the consumption originally occurred. https://www.countryreports.org/count...lpenalties.htm


              The bottom 10 countries look like the ones we should not be concerned about flooding our southern border.
              Yeah, I love countries that arrest you for premarital sex...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                Yeah, I love countries that arrest you for premarital sex...
                Shouldn't be arrested.

                Should be shot.
                Based Mullet Kid owns

                Comment


                • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

                  First one that came to mind was UAE. Now there are far too many variables to do apples to oranges with any of these.

                  But...

                  The top 10 safest countries, as at July 2020 are:
                  1. Qatar
                  2. Taiwan
                  3. UAE
                  4. Georgia
                  5. Oman
                  6. Hong Kong
                  7. Slovenia
                  8. Isle of Man
                  9. Switzerland
                  10. Japan
                  According to the report, the least safe countries are:
                  1. Venezuela
                  2. Papua New Guinea
                  3. South Africa
                  4. Afghanistan
                  5. Honduras
                  6. Trinidad And Tobago
                  7. Brazil
                  8. Guyana
                  9. El Salvador
                  10. Syria

                  I love the UAE. Been 12 times. May move there if the Dems destroy this one much more. But you aren't getting a cake DA, bail free experience in the UAE. You mess up and your butt is going to be punished. Punishment is what works. Consequences.

                  Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe than in the United States for similar offenses. Persons violating Emirati laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested, imprisoned, or prevented from traveling and their passport held by local authorities for extended periods of time. U.S. citizens have been arrested in the past for obscene hand gestures, using inappropriate (foul) language with a police official, and for public displays of affection, such as kissing. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in the United Arab Emirates are severe. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences, heavy fines, and deportation. It is possible to be convicted for drug possession based on the result of a drug test even if no other evidence exists, regardless of when or where the consumption originally occurred. https://www.countryreports.org/count...lpenalties.htm


                  The bottom 10 countries look like the ones we should not be concerned about flooding our southern border.
                  No, this list https://www.statista.com/statistics/...0-inhabitants/

                  So, from the actual list of prisoners per 100K, which would be considered a success?

                  Comment


                  • It's impossible to draw a conclusion from that without understanding the difference in what they are there for and sentencing, etc. Just because El Salvador locks people up doesn't mean we are like El Salvador.
                    I'm pointing to the high amount of violent people who either plea bargain, don't get charged/prosecuted, walk free with ridiculous bail requirements or lack thereof, early parole, early release, and contribute to an escalating crime rate in this country. The current jail count isn't scaring people and deterring crime at all. Tough sentencing for violent crimes is needed to get people to respect the law. Like the protestors in Portland who get arrested, released, charges dropped, repeat.

                    Our country has been pushing people out of prison due to COVID, safe prisons etc., pushing bail relief, shining the light on police and it is all contributing beyond the other factors of raising irresponsible kids to increased crime. We had decades of decreasing crime under this system until about 2 years ago. It works to jail people.
                    Running the damn ball since 2017.

                    Comment


                    • Instead of locking people up, we should look into prevention of crime, community creation, keeping families intact, jobs, schools, etc.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post
                        Instead of locking people up, we should look into prevention of crime, community creation, keeping families intact, jobs, schools, etc.
                        That stuff is great. Until they create victims. Then you have to deal with reality.
                        Running the damn ball since 2017.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post
                          It's impossible to draw a conclusion from that without understanding the difference in what they are there for and sentencing, etc. Just because El Salvador locks people up doesn't mean we are like El Salvador.
                          I'm pointing to the high amount of violent people who either plea bargain, don't get charged/prosecuted, walk free with ridiculous bail requirements or lack thereof, early parole, early release, and contribute to an escalating crime rate in this country. The current jail count isn't scaring people and deterring crime at all. Tough sentencing for violent crimes is needed to get people to respect the law. Like the protestors in Portland who get arrested, released, charges dropped, repeat.

                          Our country has been pushing people out of prison due to COVID, safe prisons etc., pushing bail relief, shining the light on police and it is all contributing beyond the other factors of raising irresponsible kids to increased crime. We had decades of decreasing crime under this system until about 2 years ago. It works to jail people.
                          No it just means more people are in prison per capita than El Salvador. Are the people in prison in the US in there for less serious crimes than the people in El Salvador? If so, do you think it's reasonable to have a more restrictive system in place than a country like El Salvador? Additionally, do you have data that suggests implementing tougher sentencing reduces crime rates?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                            No it just means more people are in prison per capita than El Salvador. Are the people in prison in the US in there for less serious crimes than the people in El Salvador? If so, do you think it's reasonable to have a more restrictive system in place than a country like El Salvador? Additionally, do you have data that suggests implementing tougher sentencing reduces crime rates?
                            I would argue the current crime spike amongst the push to release people speaks to your data request. I'm not confined in this position to an incarceration chart. I would argue the trends amongst the 'safest' countries are more important in determining what works. Is El Salvador's success or failures in crime directly related to its prison count?

                            Look at the US crime rate for two decades after the 1994 crime bill and tell me what happened?

                            It's not hard. When you have zero consequences the law means nothing. Punishment deters and gives the law its meaning. Our current system is a joke and the same people who want to defund police (radicals not certainly people here) are also the ones trying to break prosecution, free prisoners, and throwing gasoline on our crime surge.
                            Running the damn ball since 2017.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post
                              Instead of locking people up, we should look into prevention of crime, community creation, keeping families intact, jobs, schools, etc.
                              I was a social worker for 11ish years. I worked in jails and I worked with clients through the state and privately. Tons of programs, some good some bad. A lot of people do not want help. How do you help people that dont want help?

                              I ran a program where would taught basic living skills. We got people/families apartments and we paid for EVERYTHING. Food/Rent/Travel... the idea was to ween them off after 6 months. 90% month 7, 80% month 8.... and so on. Best program I have ever been a part of. The only "strings attached" is they would have to meet with me or anothe staff 5-10 hours per week and just learn basic living skills. Budgeting money, saving money, cooking, parenting... Its amazing how many people that signed on for this program that was later "kicked out" of the program just because they did not 1) find or maintain employment in the 6 months leading up to the 7th month 2) Meet even on a semi-regular basis to learn living skills. We primarily worked with young families. They could erceive any services offered through the state of Indiana for FREE. Family counseling, individual counseling... some of which we mandated but some they could just simply request.

                              We were very hands on. We took them shopping. We took them to find job and apply. We helped fill out applications. We helped where ever the client needed help with. If everything went well and to script they could be with us for about 18 months. some would need an extention and we started to ween them off in month 9-10 sometimes. Very client friendly. Success rate was decent the frist few years but after 3 years off the program the clients would be back where they started begging to get back on the program. When I say "off the program" they still recieved some services through the state if needed, free.

                              We still had a lot of clients getting arrested for a myriad of things from robbery, domestic issues, murder... we actually stopped the program in about 2012-2013 because someone tried to sue us and hold us responsible for their crimes. We then just ran the program with kids aging out of foster care.

                              Comment


                              • If you say America has a "mass incarceration" you are lacking context of crime rates. The crime rate would suggest we aren't locking up enough. But the crime rate would also suggest we have a people problem that needs some work as well.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

                                  I would argue the current crime spike amongst the push to release people speaks to your data request. I'm not confined in this position to an incarceration chart. I would argue the trends amongst the 'safest' countries are more important in determining what works. Is El Salvador's success or failures in crime directly related to its prison count?

                                  Look at the US crime rate for two decades after the 1994 crime bill and tell me what happened?

                                  It's not hard. When you have zero consequences the law means nothing. Punishment deters and gives the law its meaning. Our current system is a joke and the same people who want to defund police (radicals not certainly people here) are also the ones trying to break prosecution, free prisoners, and throwing gasoline on our crime surge.
                                  What? I'm asking for data to support your claim. What empirical evidence do you have that supports the claim that longer sentences will deter crime. Here's a fun read (not too scientific so don't worry) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...es-deter-crime

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                    What? I'm asking for data to support your claim. What empirical evidence do you have that supports the claim that longer sentences will deter crime. Here's a fun read (not too scientific so don't worry) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...es-deter-crime
                                    You guys might be talking about 2 different things. When you empty the jails because of COVID you are releasing more criminals to the wild which would increase crime rates. But as a whole the threat of punishment through law or policy does not deter crime, at least on paper. At the same time you would be ignorant to think if we abandoned all punishment altogether it would not increase crime. I have always learned that statistically punishment is not a deterant to crime (statistically) but is it really measureable since we do not really have a place where they have abandoned punishment altogether? You could argue some of the rioting looting where civilians knew the police were told to stand down probably contributed to an increase in crime in those areas.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                      You guys might be talking about 2 different things. When you empty the jails because of COVID you are releasing more criminals to the wild which would increase crime rates. But as a whole the threat of punishment through law or policy does not deter crime, at least on paper. At the same time you would be ignorant to think if we abandoned all punishment altogether it would not increase crime. I have always learned that statistically punishment is not a deterant to crime (statistically) but is it really measureable since we do not really have a place where they have abandoned punishment altogether? You could argue some of the rioting looting where civilians knew the police were told to stand down probably contributed to an increase in crime in those areas.
                                      "US has a massive under-incarceration problem."
                                      "Punishment deters and gives the law its meaning"
                                      "The current jail count isn't scaring people and deterring crime at all. Tough sentencing for violent crimes is needed to get people to respect the law"
                                      "It works to jail people."

                                      He's been quite clear on what he believes, I'm asking him what empirical evidence there is to support his belief that increased sentencing will deter crime.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                        What? I'm asking for data to support your claim. What empirical evidence do you have that supports the claim that longer sentences will deter crime. Here's a fun read (not too scientific so don't worry) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...es-deter-crime
                                        Good discussion. Like a lot of subjects, stats can be found to support both sides. Would appreciate it if you would share what you would do to fix this.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                          I was a social worker for 11ish years. I worked in jails and I worked with clients through the state and privately. Tons of programs, some good some bad. A lot of people do not want help. How do you help people that dont want help?

                                          I ran a program where would taught basic living skills. We got people/families apartments and we paid for EVERYTHING. Food/Rent/Travel... the idea was to ween them off after 6 months. 90% month 7, 80% month 8.... and so on. Best program I have ever been a part of. The only "strings attached" is they would have to meet with me or anothe staff 5-10 hours per week and just learn basic living skills. Budgeting money, saving money, cooking, parenting... Its amazing how many people that signed on for this program that was later "kicked out" of the program just because they did not 1) find or maintain employment in the 6 months leading up to the 7th month 2) Meet even on a semi-regular basis to learn living skills. We primarily worked with young families. They could erceive any services offered through the state of Indiana for FREE. Family counseling, individual counseling... some of which we mandated but some they could just simply request.

                                          We were very hands on. We took them shopping. We took them to find job and apply. We helped fill out applications. We helped where ever the client needed help with. If everything went well and to script they could be with us for about 18 months. some would need an extention and we started to ween them off in month 9-10 sometimes. Very client friendly. Success rate was decent the frist few years but after 3 years off the program the clients would be back where they started begging to get back on the program. When I say "off the program" they still recieved some services through the state if needed, free.

                                          We still had a lot of clients getting arrested for a myriad of things from robbery, domestic issues, murder... we actually stopped the program in about 2012-2013 because someone tried to sue us and hold us responsible for their crimes. We then just ran the program with kids aging out of foster care.
                                          You're still talking about post-crimes and such.

                                          I'm talking about crime prevention. I'm talking about getting to people, neighborhoods, etc. before this stuff happens.

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                                            You're still talking about post-crimes and such.

                                            I'm talking about crime prevention. I'm talking about getting to people, neighborhoods, etc. before this stuff happens.
                                            There's a lot that can be done there. Educating why it's important to get involved, teaching at a young age and reinforcing, tear down the empty houses, more street lights, police neighborhood outreach, etc.

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                              He's been quite clear on what he believes, I'm asking him what empirical evidence there is to support his belief that increased sentencing will deter crime.
                                              There's no data to support a victory we haven't had yet. I can point to the contrary where bail reform laws and prisoner release in the state of New York for example. You can look at crime rates after the 1994 crime bill. It doesn't matter. You could also argue Brazil has less than half our incarceration rate but six times the murder rate.

                                              People commit crimes because even as your opinion piece stated- they think they will get away with it. The way to deter crime then would logically be to make people less confident they'll get away with it and more afraid of the consequences. You don't accomplish that with social workers.
                                              Running the damn ball since 2017.

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                There's a lot that can be done there. Educating why it's important to get involved, teaching at a young age and reinforcing, tear down the empty houses, more street lights, police neighborhood outreach, etc.
                                                Detroit is attempting it, still a ways to go, but it's happening.

                                                Pittsburgh is having some successes, though still a long tough road as well. Our kids here at my placement that come from Pittsburgh have an educational liaison that goes over what they are accomplishing here, and helps them make sure they are on track when they get back there.

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                  Good discussion. Like a lot of subjects, stats can be found to support both sides. Would appreciate it if you would share what you would do to fix this.
                                                  If stats supported higher sentencing/crime deterrence they would be posted by now, they haven't, and that's telling.

                                                  Early intervention is key, get them while they're young. Out of poverty, and into post secondary schooling are two most important ones.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

                                                    There's no data to support a victory we haven't had yet. I can point to the contrary where bail reform laws and prisoner release in the state of New York for example. You can look at crime rates after the 1994 crime bill. It doesn't matter. You could also argue Brazil has less than half our incarceration rate but six times the murder rate.

                                                    People commit crimes because even as your opinion piece stated- they think they will get away with it. The way to deter crime then would logically be to make people less confident they'll get away with it and more afraid of the consequences. You don't accomplish that with social workers.
                                                    You would think logically that if the position of increased sentencing leads to deterrence of crime then other countries would be doing this, right? There's nothing unique or special about this situation. To think it's "just different" is incredibly na´ve.

                                                    Opinion piece is one way to call an article that sources a bunch of science based studies and papers. The whole class is waiting for you to share anything that supports the increased sentencing = crime deterrence, join us when you're ready.

                                                    Comment


                                                    • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                                                      You're still talking about post-crimes and such.

                                                      I'm talking about crime prevention. I'm talking about getting to people, neighborhoods, etc. before this stuff happens.

                                                      A lot of my clients were just guilty of being young and poor before entering the program. These were not court ordered post-adjudicated programs for the most part. Although we did have a lot of cases referred to us by DCS.

                                                      Recidivism rates are through the roof, 66% of those released from prison will be arrested again at some point. You can’t talk about crime prevention and ignore those who have once been arrested.

                                                      it’s almost like asking the chicken and the egg question. Did the crime make neighborhoods or did the neighborhoods make the crime? For example, Those abandoned homes did not abandon themselves. Someone moved and nobody moved back in. Why?

                                                      In my experience you can tear down homes and start that area out fresh but the people just move 5 minutes down the road and create and new area of need.

                                                      We don’t really have a 1982 DeLorean to go back pre-crime. A lot of crime is multigenerational. It’s a learned behavior or they are a victim of poverty or other social issues created by a line of imprisonments within the family line.


                                                      Comment


                                                      • Lol the jurors in the Chauvin trial seem dead set on wanting people to question their verdict.

                                                        Based Mullet Kid owns

                                                        Comment


                                                        • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post


                                                          A lot of my clients were just guilty of being young and poor before entering the program. These were not court ordered post-adjudicated programs for the most part. Although we did have a lot of cases referred to us by DCS.

                                                          Recidivism rates are through the roof, 66% of those released from prison will be arrested again at some point. You can’t talk about crime prevention and ignore those who have once been arrested.

                                                          it’s almost like asking the chicken and the egg question. Did the crime make neighborhoods or did the neighborhoods make the crime? For example, Those abandoned homes did not abandon themselves. Someone moved and nobody moved back in. Why?

                                                          In my experience you can tear down homes and start that area out fresh but the people just move 5 minutes down the road and create and new area of need.

                                                          We don’t really have a 1982 DeLorean to go back pre-crime. A lot of crime is multigenerational. It’s a learned behavior or they are a victim of poverty or other social issues created by a line of imprisonments within the family line.

                                                          White flight for one. I mean, there were legit racist tactics to convince white people to move out of their neighborhoods because middle class blacks were moving in. Telling the white people these black people would bring in crime, and meanwhile I can sell you this brand new "EXCLUSIVE WHITES ONLY" house in our Levittown development right up the brand new interstate.

                                                          Comment


                                                          • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                            If stats supported higher sentencing/crime deterrence they would be posted by now, they haven't, and that's telling.

                                                            Early intervention is key, get them while they're young. Out of poverty, and into post secondary schooling are two most important ones.
                                                            The bottom line is, like so many other issues the answer lies somewhere in the middle . Harsh punishment isn't going to stop anyone who is bent on committing the crime. Post secondary education is nice, but you have to graduate from HS first. How do you keep kids from dropping out? Vocational training probably fits better for a lot of people. We hear poverty all the time, but look at all of the examples where there is success right in the middle of poverty. The kid from Bama that was just drafted (Harris?). Lived in his car, but didn't let that lead him down the wrong path.

                                                            Comment


                                                            • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                                                              White flight for one. I mean, there were legit racist tactics to convince white people to move out of their neighborhoods because middle class blacks were moving in. Telling the white people these black people would bring in crime, and meanwhile I can sell you this brand new "EXCLUSIVE WHITES ONLY" house in our Levittown development right up the brand new interstate.
                                                              Yeah that surely had an impact 40 years ago but that doesn’t explain the modern housing problems. The go-to “white flight” or “white people did that” doesn’t solve the current problems, it will def help prevent the same disgusting cycle from repeating itself ofcourse. A lot of the problems are ingrained in poor areas (not just cities) and it doesn’t matter what the race of the person is or isn’t. You’re generally screwed if you grow up around the poverty line. That’s why I believe it’s more an economic problem than race issue. Don’t get me wrong, race played a big role historically, I just think the modern crisis is born more of economic disparities and mismanagement of government resources. Residential instability, failing school districts, high crime rate zones, single parents, gang activity, urban decay is a vicious cycle that destroys everything in its path regardless of your race, religion, sexual orientation...etc.

                                                              Big problem is that throwing money at these areas doesn’t help. Those areas get tons of federal funding for housing, massive school budgets, youth and adult out reach programs...etc and still nothing changes. I don’t think it’s a problem we can buy ourselves out of and I wish I knew the answer but until political partisanship ends nothing will change.


                                                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                                                              Comment


                                                              • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post


                                                                A lot of my clients were just guilty of being young and poor before entering the program. These were not court ordered post-adjudicated programs for the most part. Although we did have a lot of cases referred to us by DCS.

                                                                Recidivism rates are through the roof, 66% of those released from prison will be arrested again at some point. You can’t talk about crime prevention and ignore those who have once been arrested.

                                                                it’s almost like asking the chicken and the egg question. Did the crime make neighborhoods or did the neighborhoods make the crime? For example, Those abandoned homes did not abandon themselves. Someone moved and nobody moved back in. Why?

                                                                In my experience you can tear down homes and start that area out fresh but the people just move 5 minutes down the road and create and new area of need.

                                                                We don’t really have a 1982 DeLorean to go back pre-crime. A lot of crime is multigenerational. It’s a learned behavior or they are a victim of poverty or other social issues created by a line of imprisonments within the family line.

                                                                I have forever thought a program for state military schools is the way to go - if you can't show up and be respectful at school you get sent away for months at a time. Make it voluntary too - any parent can send their kid there if they think they are losing control or kid running with the wrong crowd or need the break to deal with their own shit. I have known a lot of folks that have spent a lot of money to hit that reset button for their kids for a variety of reasons.

                                                                Also get serious about removing kids from completely broken situations. My wife has babies being weaned off of all kinds of drugs (street and prescription) - in the rare case the kid doesn't go home with the negligent mom it is sent home with some family member. Nobody is serious about giving these kids a chance.

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                                                                • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                                                                  White flight for one. I mean, there were legit racist tactics to convince white people to move out of their neighborhoods because middle class blacks were moving in. Telling the white people these black people would bring in crime, and meanwhile I can sell you this brand new "EXCLUSIVE WHITES ONLY" house in our Levittown development right up the brand new interstate.
                                                                  I am not getting your point. Are you saying everything they thought would come true actually came true, or did it come true because white people left? And is the solution gentrification and moving white people into black neighborhoods?

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                                                                  • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                                    I have forever thought a program for state military schools is the way to go - if you can't show up and be respectful at school you get sent away for months at a time. Make it voluntary too - any parent can send their kid there if they think they are losing control or kid running with the wrong crowd or need the break to deal with their own shit. I have known a lot of folks that have spent a lot of money to hit that reset button for their kids for a variety of reasons.

                                                                    Also get serious about removing kids from completely broken situations. My wife has babies being weaned off of all kinds of drugs (street and prescription) - in the rare case the kid doesn't go home with the negligent mom it is sent home with some family member. Nobody is serious about giving these kids a chance.
                                                                    Its way too easy to have kids, its way too hard to lose your kids, its way too easy to get them back.

                                                                    A poster above maybe a week or so ago said something about teenage pregnancy and I sort of blew it off because it sounded like a church youth group sermon... but the more I think about teenage pregnancy and how more black kids are born to parents under age 15 than white kids you would have to think its a contributing factor.

                                                                    As much as some mock Ben Shapiro he screams that probably the biggest problem that plagues the black community and in a lot of poor communities as a whole is single parent households. Black people are more likely to have a fatherless child, more likely to have a child at 15 or under and 19 or under, also more likely to have an abortion. Just about every black friend I had growing up in my inner city school did not have a dad in the home and my best friend never really knew who his dad was.

                                                                    85% of youth in prison come from fatherless homes.

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                                                                    • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                                      I am not getting your point. Are you saying everything they thought would come true actually came true, or did it come true because white people left? And is the solution gentrification and moving white people into black neighborhoods?
                                                                      Well it comes true when people preyed on racist fears, and motivated by racism to literally abandon neighborhoods.

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                                                                      • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
                                                                        Lol the jurors in the Chauvin trial seem dead set on wanting people to question their verdict.
                                                                        I dont get it. Do they want a book deal, their 10 seconds of fame? Suprisingly all the things I have read from the liberal side is the jurors coming out and speaking puts a dent in any appeal... to me it seems they are handing Chauvin a case for appeal just coming forward as a juror so people can look up their social justice history. Pretty sure I read Juror 52 (I think) said in voir dire he did not have much knowledge on the case and then is pictured pre trial wearing a George Floyd shirt and BLM hat.

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                                                                        • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                                                                          Well it comes true when people preyed on racist fears, and motivated by racism to literally abandon neighborhoods.
                                                                          Well you made a very complex social change very simple. Post-WW2, veterans were offered killer loans and mortgages to move out into the suburbs. Governments creation of “the great society” and made a big push for suburban growth. Cities were crowded and dirty and suburbs offered space and lawns.
                                                                          That’s what started the migration.

                                                                          The racist part is on the government for investing in the burbs and not into the cities. White people were redlined who tried to move to the city and blacks were red lines who tried to leave. Manufacturing and jobs shipped off and later overseas. Again, the government created this mess. Blaming white people for being racist for every problem is disingenuous and will allow it to happen again.


                                                                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                                                                          • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                                                                            Well it comes true when people preyed on racist fears, and motivated by racism to literally abandon neighborhoods.
                                                                            Whats the cause of abandoned homes and poverty within the last 30-40 years? Detroit started losing people in the early 2000s, that was probably the auto industry.

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                                                                            • Originally posted by tommyIRISH23 View Post

                                                                              Well you made a very complex social change very simple. Post-WW2, veterans were offered killer loans and mortgages to move out into the suburbs. Governments creation of “the great society” and made a big push for suburban growth. Cities were crowded and dirty and suburbs offered space and lawns.
                                                                              That’s what started the migration.

                                                                              The racist part is on the government for investing in the burbs and not into the cities. White people were redlined who tried to move to the city and blacks were red lines who tried to leave. Manufacturing and jobs shipped off and later overseas. Again, the government created this mess. Blaming white people for being racist for every problem is disingenuous and will allow it to happen again.


                                                                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                                                                              I'm not blaming white people being racist for every problem. I'm saying racist is one of the reasons that caused some of these problems.

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                                                                              • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                                                Whats the cause of abandoned homes and poverty within the last 30-40 years? Detroit started losing people in the early 2000s, that was probably the auto industry.
                                                                                Detroit started losing people in the 70s. Of course a major factor was the auto industry. I've never once said racism/racial fears is the sole reason. I've said that's a contributing factor. Especially as more and more middle class blacks did move into neighborhoods.

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                                                                                • Originally posted by GowerND11 View Post

                                                                                  Detroit started losing people in the 70s. Of course a major factor was the auto industry. I've never once said racism/racial fears is the sole reason. I've said that's a contributing factor. Especially as more and more middle class blacks did move into neighborhoods.
                                                                                  In 77 or 78, I worked with a guy that was from Detroit. I still remember him saying "Man, your slums are way better than Detroit's".

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                                                                                  • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                                                    I have forever thought a program for state military schools is the way to go - if you can't show up and be respectful at school you get sent away for months at a time. Make it voluntary too - any parent can send their kid there if they think they are losing control or kid running with the wrong crowd or need the break to deal with their own shit. I have known a lot of folks that have spent a lot of money to hit that reset button for their kids for a variety of reasons.
                                                                                    The more I think about this, the more it intrigues me. No better place to instill discipline than a military environment.

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                                                                                    • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                                                      I dont get it. Do they want a book deal, their 10 seconds of fame? Suprisingly all the things I have read from the liberal side is the jurors coming out and speaking puts a dent in any appeal... to me it seems they are handing Chauvin a case for appeal just coming forward as a juror so people can look up their social justice history. Pretty sure I read Juror 52 (I think) said in voir dire he did not have much knowledge on the case and then is pictured pre trial wearing a George Floyd shirt and BLM hat.
                                                                                      I've always felt this trial should have been held someplace else.

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                                                                                      • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                                                        I've always felt this trial should have been held someplace else.
                                                                                        100%. That and not sequestering the jury really set the whole thing up for appeal.

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                                                                                        • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                                                          I've always felt this trial should have been held someplace else.
                                                                                          This is so true. The jurors can be selected from another state all the same.

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                                                                                          • Started watching the docu series titled "Flint". Covers Flint, Michigan police. Police force once over 300+ is now under 100 due to lack of funds which s a result of all the automotive jobs that dried up. Smallest force in the country for a city of 100K. Patrolmen answering a lot of calls with no back up.

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                                                                                            • Friend back in Indiana sent me this video. Thoughts?

                                                                                              The obvious outrage is the officer being told to leave and his motives being questioned. What I did not see initially because its easy to miss was the black power fist in the background. Reason #9,654,905 I dont send my kids to public school.

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                                                                                              • Afraid the kids would be scarred if they saw him taking walk through? I like how he reminded her they were the good guys. lol

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                                                                                                • Yeah, this isn't how things get better. Good officers doing their job, helping deter crime and build relationships in the community and you kick them out. Meeting officers in our school back in the day while they taught D.A.R.E and helped watch over events built real relationships. Our private school gave a very nice gift to our D.A.R.E officer when he retired, he had tears in his eyes. I have no words.

                                                                                                  [EDIT] Found a write up on Officer Shipper's retirement https://www.times-gazette.com/articl...NEWS/306119276

                                                                                                  From the article:

                                                                                                  He praised Shipper for all the program has done to build stronger relationships among the department, the schools and residents.

                                                                                                  “I never had to worry about the D.A.R.E. program,” Miracle said. “I might not have seen Jeff for weeks at a time, but I knew where he was and what he was doing. He was in the schools talking to kids. I appreciate that.”

                                                                                                  Taft teachers presented Shipper with a gift basket, a weekend getaway at a condo in Port Clinton and a book of bad jokes compiled by students.

                                                                                                  Shipper later explained he enjoyed sharing bad jokes with students.

                                                                                                  He gave a brief farewell speech, pausing a few times to contain his emotions.

                                                                                                  “The greatest thrill of this ride is the friendships I’ve made over the past years, friendships with teachers, administrators, parents and students alike,” he said.

                                                                                                  The students rushed to the podium after Shipper finished. He nearly disappeared beneath a wave of orange shirts.
                                                                                                  Last edited by ulukinatme; Today, 02:27 PM.

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