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  • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post
    I’ve got stats too....and Im not diluting it based on 60 million"interactions". Its roughly 1000 people per year are kille dby police (justified or not) with blacks being nearly 3 times as likely ot get into deadly altercation. Id bet the families of everyone of thsoe 1000 people would want them at home ang give less than 0.00099% shits about the normal non-violent traffic stops and other interactions where violence is unlikely to occur. Its also well know that killings in custory and shootings ar enot 100% required by law ot be reproted and not all precints keep this data or reprot to the federal LEOs.

    "The annual average number of justifiable homicides alone was previously estimated to be near 400.[38] Updated estimates from the Bureau of Justice Statistics released in 2015 estimate the number to be around 930 per year, or 1,240 if assuming that non-reporting local agencies kill people at the same rate as reporting agencies.[39]A 2019 study by Esposito, Lee, and Edwards states that police killings are a leading cause of death for men aged 25-29 at 1.8 per 100000, trailing causes such as accidental death (76.6 per 100000), suicide (26.7 per 100000), and other homicides (22.0 per 100000).[11]

    Around 2015–2016, The Guardian newspaper ran its own database, The Counted, which tracked US killings by police and other law enforcement agencies including from gunshots, tasers, car accidents and custody deaths. They counted 1,146 deaths for 2015 and 1,093 deaths for 2016. The database can be viewed by state, gender, race/ethnicity, age, classification (e.g., "gunshot"), and whether the person killed was armed.[40]

    The Washington Post has tracked shootings since 2015, reporting more than 5,000 incidents since their tracking began.[41] The database can also classify people in various categories including race, age, weapon etc. For 2019, it reported a total of 1,004 people shot and killed by police.[3][42]
    Racial patternsEditCivilian characteristicsEdit


    According to The Guardian's database, in 2016 the rate of fatal police shootings per million was 10.13 for Native Americans, 6.6 for black people, 3.23 for Hispanics; 2.9 for white people and 1.17 for Asians.[12] In absolute numbers, police kill more white people than any other race or ethnicity, however this must be understood in light of the fact that white people make up the largest proportion of the US population.[43] As a percentage of the U.S. population, black Americans were 2.5 times more likely than whites to be killed by the police in 2015.[43] A 2015 study found that unarmed blacks were 3.49 times more likely to be shot by police than were unarmed whites.[13] Another study published in 2016 concluded that the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and Hispanic people was 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than that among white people. Another 2015 study concluded that black people were 2.8 times more likely to be killed by police than whites. They also concluded that black people were more likely to be unarmed than white people who were in turn more likely to be unarmed than Hispanic people shot by the police.[44][45] A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men.[46] A 2020 study found "strong and statistically reliable evidence of anti-Black racial disparities in the killing of unarmed Americans by police in 2015–2016."[15]

    A 2016 study by economist Roland G. Fryer, Jr. of the National Bureau of Economic Research, updated in 2018, found that while overall "blacks are 21 percent more likely than whites to be involved in an interaction with police in which at least a weapon is drawn" and that in the raw data from New York City's Stop and Frisk program"blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force" after "[p]artitioning the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings."[4] A 2020 study by Princeton University political scientists disputed the findings by Fryer, saying that if police had a higher threshold for stopping whites, this might mean that the whites, Hispanics and blacks in Fryer's data are not similar.[6] Nobel-laureate James Heckman and Steven Durlauf, both University of Chicago economists, published a response to the Fryer study, writing that the paper "does not establish credible evidence on the presence or absence of discrimination against African Americans in police shootings" due to issues with selection bias.[48] Fryer responded by saying Durlauf and Heckman erroneously claim that his sample is "based on stops". Further, he states that the "vast majority of the data...is gleaned from 911 calls for service in which a civilian requests police presence."[49]

    A 2016 study published in the journal Injury Prevention concluded that African Americans, Native Americans and Latinos were more likely to be stopped by police compared to Asians and whites, but found that there was no racial bias in the likelihood of being killed or injured after being stopped.[50] A January 2017 report by the DOJ found that the Chicago Police Department had "unconstitutionally engaged in a pattern of excessive and deadly force" and an independent task force, created by the mayor of Chicago, stated that police "have no regard for the sanctity of life when it comes to people of color."[14] A 2018 study found that minorities are disproportionately killed by police but that white officers are not more likely to use lethal force on blacks than minority officers.[51] A 2019 study in The Journal of Politics found that police officers were more likely to use lethal force on blacks, but that this was "most likely driven by higher rates of police contact among African Americans rather than racial differences in the circumstances of the interaction and officer bias in the application of lethal force."[52] A 2019 study in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS) found that blacks and American Indian/Alaska Natives are more likely to be killed by police than whites and that Latino men are more likely to be killed than white men.[11] According to the study, "for young men of color, police use of force is among the leading causes of death."[11]

    A 2019 study in PNAS by Cesario et al. initially concluded from a dataset of fatal shootings that white officers were not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-white officers, but it was later retracted over errors in its methodology.[53] The study was criticized by several academics, who stated that its conclusion could not be supported by the data.[7] It was criticized in a subsequent PNAS article, which stated that it rested on the erroneous assumption that police encounter minorities and whites at the same rate, and that if police have a higher threshold for stopping whites who engage in suspicious behavior than blacks, then the data on police shootings masks the discrimination.[54]PNAS issued a correction to the original article and retracted it in July 2020.[55] A 2020 study in the American Political Science Review found that there was racial bias in who was stopped by police.[6]

    An early study, published in 1977, found that a disproportionately high percentage of those killed by police were racial minorities compared to their representation in the general population. The same study, however, noted that this proportion is consistent with the number of minorities arrested for serious felonies.[57] A 1977 analysis of reports from major metropolitan departments found officers fired more shots at white suspects than at black suspects, possibly because of "public sentiment concerning treatment of blacks." A 1978 report found that 60 percent of black people shot by the police were armed with handguns, compared to 35 percent of white people shot.[58]

    A 2014 study involving computer-based simulations of a police encounter using police officers and undergraduates found a greater likelihood to shoot black targets instead of whites for the undergraduate students but for the police, they generally found no biased pattern of shooting.[59] Another study at Washington State University used realistic police simulators of different scenarios where a police officer might use deadly force. The study concluded that unarmed white suspects were three times more likely to be shot than unarmed black suspects. The study concluded that the results could be because officers were more concerned with using deadly force against black suspects for fear of how it would be perceived.[58]

    Although Congress instructed the Attorney General in 1994 to compile and publish annual statistics on police use of excessive force, this was never carried out, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation does not collect these data either.[16]Consequently, no official national database exists to track such killings.[17] This has led multiple non-governmental entities to attempt to create comprehensive databases of police shootings in the United States.[18] The National Violent Death Reporting System is a more complete database to track police homicides than either the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports (SHR) or the Centers for Disease Control's National Vital Statistics System (NVSS).[19] This is because both the SHR and NVSS under-report the number of police killings.[20]
    Government data collectionEdit"

    Capture.PNG
    Your stats lack context... that context is crime.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

      Your stats lack context... that context is crime.
      oh so all 61 million contacts indicate crime was committed? talk about lack of context, lmao.

      Capture.PNG
      "From Chaos comes Clarity"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post
        oh so all 61 million contacts indicate crime was committed? talk about lack of context, lmao.

        Capture.PNG
        No but 10,085,207 arrests typically mean a crime was committed...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

          No but 10,085,207 arrests typically mean a crime was committed...
          There are drawbacks to using arrest data as a measure of crime. Arrest statistics do not reflect the number of different people arrested each year, because an unknown number of people may be arrested more than once in a year. For some crimes, no arrests are made. For others, there may be multiple arrests. Furthermore, not everyone who is arrested has committed the crime for which he or she was arrested. Arrests also depend on a number of factors other than overall crime levels, including policies of particular police agencies, the cooperation of victims, the skill of the perpetrator, and the age, sex, race, and social class of the suspect (Cook and Laub, 1998; McCord, 1997c).

          Nor should arrest statistics be confused with the number of crimes committed, because in some cases, the arrest of one person may account for a series of crimes, and in others several people may be arrested for one crime. This is particularly true for young people, who are more likely than adults to commit crimes in a group (McCord, 1990; Reiss, 1986; Reiss and Farrington, 1991; Zimring, 1981). Snyder (1998) contends that this tendency to offend in groups makes arrest statistics an inappropriate measure of the relative proportion of crime attributed to young people. Checking on Snyder's position, McCord and Conway (2000) analyzed a random sample of juvenile offenders in Philadelphia. They found that the number of crimes accounted for by juveniles would be reduced by approximately 40 percent with an adjustment for co-offending. Rather, arrest statistics measure the flow of young people into the juvenile justice system or the criminal justice system. For this reason, the number of crimes known to police is often a preferred measure of crime (Cook and Laub, 1998). The UCR provide information on all crimes known to reporting police agencies, whether or not an arrest has been made. There is no information on age of the perpetrator, however, in the data on crimes known to police; thus even if they are a more accurate crime measure, the number of crimes known to police cannot be used to analyze juvenile crime.

          Arrest clearance statistics, which measure the proportion of reported crime cleared by arrest (or other exceptional means, such as death of the offender), may more accurately portray the proportion of crime committed by young people, according to Snyder (1998). But even clearance statistics may overestimate juvenile crime. For example, if young people are more easily apprehended than adults, the proportion of their crimes cleared by arrest would be higher than the proportion of all crimes for which they were responsible (Snyder, 1998). The proportion of young people arrested consistently exceeds the proportion of crimes cleared by the arrest of young people for all crimes and across time, indicating that the use of arrest statistics may make it appear that juveniles account for more crime than they actually do. Likewise, Reiss and Farrington (1991) showed that offending appears less common in the teenage years if the rate is based on the number of offenses (which takes into account co-offending) committed by juveniles rather than on the number of juvenile offenders.
          "From Chaos comes Clarity"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post
            oh so all 61 million contacts indicate crime was committed? talk about lack of context, lmao.

            Capture.PNG
            "In selected countries" is the problem with your graph. It compares the US to some of the countries with the lowest crime rates. Sadly, the crime rate in the US for things like murder, rape, and assault - violent crime (not to mention drug related and property crime) - is MUCH more similar to that of some third world countries than that of Canada, Japan, and most of Western Europe. Many of our major cities look like scenes from war torn third world countries. Crime rates there are comparable to some of the worst places in Central America or Africa.
            Last edited by Bishop2b5; 04-28-2021, 06:15 PM. Reason: misspelling
            Winners see success and want to climb up to its level. Losers see success and want to drag it down to their own.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

              If we still had the IE awards, this would definitely be in the running for POY! I bow to your superior intellect.
              Had you done this at the beginning, you'd have saved us both a lot of time. Please bookmark for posterity.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post
                I think all of that is irrelevant. 10 million arrests are 10 million arrests. What does getting arrested multiple times have to do with anything? If a guy was arrested 3 times those events are stand alone events with different facts, crimes, location officer, ect.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post
                  I’ve got stats too....and Im not diluting it based on 60 million"interactions". Its roughly 1000 people per year are kille dby police (justified or not) with blacks being nearly 3 times as likely ot get into deadly altercation. Id bet the families of everyone of thsoe 1000 people would want them at home ang give less than 0.00099% shits about the normal non-violent traffic stops and other interactions where violence is unlikely to occur. Its also well know that killings in custory and shootings ar enot 100% required by law ot be reproted and not all precints keep this data or reprot to the federal LEOs.

                  "The annual average number of justifiable homicides alone was previously estimated to be near 400.[38] Updated estimates from the Bureau of Justice Statistics released in 2015 estimate the number to be around 930 per year, or 1,240 if assuming that non-reporting local agencies kill people at the same rate as reporting agencies.[39]A 2019 study by Esposito, Lee, and Edwards states that police killings are a leading cause of death for men aged 25-29 at 1.8 per 100000, trailing causes such as accidental death (76.6 per 100000), suicide (26.7 per 100000), and other homicides (22.0 per 100000).[11]

                  Around 2015–2016, The Guardian newspaper ran its own database, The Counted, which tracked US killings by police and other law enforcement agencies including from gunshots, tasers, car accidents and custody deaths. They counted 1,146 deaths for 2015 and 1,093 deaths for 2016. The database can be viewed by state, gender, race/ethnicity, age, classification (e.g., "gunshot"), and whether the person killed was armed.[40]

                  The Washington Post has tracked shootings since 2015, reporting more than 5,000 incidents since their tracking began.[41] The database can also classify people in various categories including race, age, weapon etc. For 2019, it reported a total of 1,004 people shot and killed by police.[3][42]
                  Racial patternsEditCivilian characteristicsEdit


                  According to The Guardian's database, in 2016 the rate of fatal police shootings per million was 10.13 for Native Americans, 6.6 for black people, 3.23 for Hispanics; 2.9 for white people and 1.17 for Asians.[12] In absolute numbers, police kill more white people than any other race or ethnicity, however this must be understood in light of the fact that white people make up the largest proportion of the US population.[43] As a percentage of the U.S. population, black Americans were 2.5 times more likely than whites to be killed by the police in 2015.[43] A 2015 study found that unarmed blacks were 3.49 times more likely to be shot by police than were unarmed whites.[13] Another study published in 2016 concluded that the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and Hispanic people was 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than that among white people. Another 2015 study concluded that black people were 2.8 times more likely to be killed by police than whites. They also concluded that black people were more likely to be unarmed than white people who were in turn more likely to be unarmed than Hispanic people shot by the police.[44][45] A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men.[46] A 2020 study found "strong and statistically reliable evidence of anti-Black racial disparities in the killing of unarmed Americans by police in 2015–2016."[15]

                  A 2016 study by economist Roland G. Fryer, Jr. of the National Bureau of Economic Research, updated in 2018, found that while overall "blacks are 21 percent more likely than whites to be involved in an interaction with police in which at least a weapon is drawn" and that in the raw data from New York City's Stop and Frisk program"blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force" after "[p]artitioning the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings."[4] A 2020 study by Princeton University political scientists disputed the findings by Fryer, saying that if police had a higher threshold for stopping whites, this might mean that the whites, Hispanics and blacks in Fryer's data are not similar.[6] Nobel-laureate James Heckman and Steven Durlauf, both University of Chicago economists, published a response to the Fryer study, writing that the paper "does not establish credible evidence on the presence or absence of discrimination against African Americans in police shootings" due to issues with selection bias.[48] Fryer responded by saying Durlauf and Heckman erroneously claim that his sample is "based on stops". Further, he states that the "vast majority of the data...is gleaned from 911 calls for service in which a civilian requests police presence."[49]

                  A 2016 study published in the journal Injury Prevention concluded that African Americans, Native Americans and Latinos were more likely to be stopped by police compared to Asians and whites, but found that there was no racial bias in the likelihood of being killed or injured after being stopped.[50] A January 2017 report by the DOJ found that the Chicago Police Department had "unconstitutionally engaged in a pattern of excessive and deadly force" and an independent task force, created by the mayor of Chicago, stated that police "have no regard for the sanctity of life when it comes to people of color."[14] A 2018 study found that minorities are disproportionately killed by police but that white officers are not more likely to use lethal force on blacks than minority officers.[51] A 2019 study in The Journal of Politics found that police officers were more likely to use lethal force on blacks, but that this was "most likely driven by higher rates of police contact among African Americans rather than racial differences in the circumstances of the interaction and officer bias in the application of lethal force."[52] A 2019 study in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS) found that blacks and American Indian/Alaska Natives are more likely to be killed by police than whites and that Latino men are more likely to be killed than white men.[11] According to the study, "for young men of color, police use of force is among the leading causes of death."[11]

                  A 2019 study in PNAS by Cesario et al. initially concluded from a dataset of fatal shootings that white officers were not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-white officers, but it was later retracted over errors in its methodology.[53] The study was criticized by several academics, who stated that its conclusion could not be supported by the data.[7] It was criticized in a subsequent PNAS article, which stated that it rested on the erroneous assumption that police encounter minorities and whites at the same rate, and that if police have a higher threshold for stopping whites who engage in suspicious behavior than blacks, then the data on police shootings masks the discrimination.[54]PNAS issued a correction to the original article and retracted it in July 2020.[55] A 2020 study in the American Political Science Review found that there was racial bias in who was stopped by police.[6]

                  An early study, published in 1977, found that a disproportionately high percentage of those killed by police were racial minorities compared to their representation in the general population. The same study, however, noted that this proportion is consistent with the number of minorities arrested for serious felonies.[57] A 1977 analysis of reports from major metropolitan departments found officers fired more shots at white suspects than at black suspects, possibly because of "public sentiment concerning treatment of blacks." A 1978 report found that 60 percent of black people shot by the police were armed with handguns, compared to 35 percent of white people shot.[58]

                  A 2014 study involving computer-based simulations of a police encounter using police officers and undergraduates found a greater likelihood to shoot black targets instead of whites for the undergraduate students but for the police, they generally found no biased pattern of shooting.[59] Another study at Washington State University used realistic police simulators of different scenarios where a police officer might use deadly force. The study concluded that unarmed white suspects were three times more likely to be shot than unarmed black suspects. The study concluded that the results could be because officers were more concerned with using deadly force against black suspects for fear of how it would be perceived.[58]

                  Although Congress instructed the Attorney General in 1994 to compile and publish annual statistics on police use of excessive force, this was never carried out, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation does not collect these data either.[16]Consequently, no official national database exists to track such killings.[17] This has led multiple non-governmental entities to attempt to create comprehensive databases of police shootings in the United States.[18] The National Violent Death Reporting System is a more complete database to track police homicides than either the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports (SHR) or the Centers for Disease Control's National Vital Statistics System (NVSS).[19] This is because both the SHR and NVSS under-report the number of police killings.[20]
                  Government data collectionEdit"

                  Capture.PNG
                  I used most of those studies for my research thesis to get my masters. Also, according to my research, violent crime rates SIGNIFICANTLY influence police deadly force. I used the most populated cities in each state, city level violent crime rates, and used the Washington Post deadly shooting tracker (at the time there was not federal tracking of deadly force but I think that has changed). The homicides were/are counted in the UCR rates ofcourse.

                  Other significant variables were resource deprivation, failing school, and urban plight in general. Makes sense though right? High crime areas are generally poorly lit with abandoned homes that are infested with drugs, gangs, and all kinds of other indicators of violent crime.

                  Gun violence and by extension police use of deadly force is the byproduct of economic problems. And neither democrats or republicans are remotely close to having the answers.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tommyIRISH23 View Post

                    I used most of those studies for my research thesis to get my masters. Also, according to my research, violent crime rates SIGNIFICANTLY influence police deadly force. I used the most populated cities in each state, city level violent crime rates, and used the Washington Post deadly shooting tracker (at the time there was not federal tracking of deadly force but I think that has changed). The homicides were/are counted in the UCR rates ofcourse.

                    Other significant variables were resource deprivation, failing school, and urban plight in general. Makes sense though right? High crime areas are generally poorly lit with abandoned homes that are infested with drugs, gangs, and all kinds of other indicators of violent crime.

                    Gun violence and by extension police use of deadly force is the byproduct of economic problems. And neither democrats or republicans are remotely close to having the answers.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    Fuckin A

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tommyIRISH23 View Post

                      I used most of those studies for my research thesis to get my masters. Also, according to my research, violent crime rates SIGNIFICANTLY influence police deadly force. I used the most populated cities in each state, city level violent crime rates, and used the Washington Post deadly shooting tracker (at the time there was not federal tracking of deadly force but I think that has changed). The homicides were/are counted in the UCR rates ofcourse.

                      Other significant variables were resource deprivation, failing school, and urban plight in general. Makes sense though right? High crime areas are generally poorly lit with abandoned homes that are infested with drugs, gangs, and all kinds of other indicators of violent crime.

                      Gun violence and by extension police use of deadly force is the byproduct of economic problems. And neither democrats or republicans are remotely close to having the answers.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      Thank you. This post is great! Its safe to say this goes way beyond police reform...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                        Thank you. This post is great! Its safe to say this goes way beyond police reform...
                        Thank you. I appreciate it. The biggest shock to me wasn’t the data or the findings but the surprise from my advisors. Apparently the idea that violent crime rates would influence officer involved shootings was a crazy idea. It was pretty much written off as a influential variable by academia.

                        My reasons for doing the topic were pretty simple. I’ve been in that position many times. Going into a dimly lit area that is known for homicides, robberies, shootings, gangs, and assaults while responding to gun shots or a gun call is nerve racking. Cops are human, it’s literally impossible not to have a reaction to that type environment. I’d argue that it’d more of a concern if someone didn’t lol


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                        Comment


                        • https://www.wboc.com/story/43778105/...be-organ-donor

                          It sucks anywhere but these are My people. This one of my police departments we work with in dispatch. This an agency my best friend of 20 plus years works for. This the town my family lives in. I am at a loss of words. I am angry, I am pissed and most of all I am heartbroken.

                          This just goes to show that a gun doesn’t have to be present for an officer to die. And you all can say what you want people that get locked up numerous times and use drugs over and over don’t change and this another case to prove it. On our case search this suspect has been charged with something 38 times and he just turned 30.
                          Brotherhood may fade, but it will never run

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                            Thank you. This post is great! Its safe to say this goes way beyond police reform...
                            Just saying ..... he literally destroyed your previous post since you tried to to dilute deadly encounters with ALL police encounters. Based on his statement violent predispositions are way more likely to produce deadly outcomes than the mundane encounters you tries to include.


                            and I agree with his statement as well hence why I posted the series of stats showing the need for more data.
                            Last edited by Cackalacky2.0; 04-29-2021, 06:11 AM.
                            "From Chaos comes Clarity"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by irishff1014 View Post
                              https://www.wboc.com/story/43778105/...be-organ-donor

                              It sucks anywhere but these are My people. This one of my police departments we work with in dispatch. This an agency my best friend of 20 plus years works for. This the town my family lives in. I am at a loss of words. I am angry, I am pissed and most of all I am heartbroken.

                              This just goes to show that a gun doesn’t have to be present for an officer to die. And you all can say what you want people that get locked up numerous times and use drugs over and over don’t change and this another case to prove it. On our case search this suspect has been charged with something 38 times and he just turned 30.
                              Doesn't matter the situation, hate it for you Cack. Sorry, and only peace and love to you and your community. Politics sucks. You rock.
                              The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
                              Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                I think all of that is irrelevant. 10 million arrests are 10 million arrests. What does getting arrested multiple times have to do with anything? If a guy was arrested 3 times those events are stand alone events with different facts, crimes, location officer, ect.
                                Lol ok.
                                "From Chaos comes Clarity"

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by tommyIRISH23 View Post

                                  I used most of those studies for my research thesis to get my masters. Also, according to my research, violent crime rates SIGNIFICANTLY influence police deadly force. I used the most populated cities in each state, city level violent crime rates, and used the Washington Post deadly shooting tracker (at the time there was not federal tracking of deadly force but I think that has changed). The homicides were/are counted in the UCR rates ofcourse.

                                  Other significant variables were resource deprivation, failing school, and urban plight in general. Makes sense though right? High crime areas are generally poorly lit with abandoned homes that are infested with drugs, gangs, and all kinds of other indicators of violent crime.

                                  Gun violence and by extension police use of deadly force is the byproduct of economic problems. And neither democrats or republicans are remotely close to having the answers.


                                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                                  Thanks for the additional insight. I think we all know that economic issues are apart but the degree of influence is something I’d like more info on. Could you link me those sources that I didn’t cite above for my own edification. As you may have read I am taking part in a community program aimed at getting cops and the community to listen to each other and I’d like some more firepower for discussions. It would be much appreciated.
                                  "From Chaos comes Clarity"

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                    Thank you. This post is great! Its safe to say this goes way beyond police reform...
                                    It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

                                    And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations? Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

                                    The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.

                                    Comment


                                    • The news is saying there is a huge shortage in the supply of ammo and many police forces are critically low. I guess our problem may be solved!

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                        It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

                                        And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations? Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

                                        The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.I
                                        All of this.

                                        We have to ignore politics and do multiple things.

                                        At minimum....
                                        1. ​​​​​​​don't shoot people that are defenseless and without weapons
                                        2. prosecute LEOs to the fullest if they misuse powers
                                        3. don't defend those that have guns and threaten LEO or others
                                        4. BODY CAM FOR ALL LEOS.... WTF is simpler
                                        5. stop silly defund stuff
                                        The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
                                        Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Bishop2b5 View Post

                                          "In selected countries" is the problem with your graph. It compares the US to some of the countries with the lowest crime rates. Sadly, the crime rate in the US for things like murder, rape, and assault - violent crime (not to mention drug related and property crime) - is MUCH more similar to that of some third world countries than that of Canada, Japan, and most of Western Europe. Many of our major cities look like scenes from war torn third world countries. Crime rates there are comparable to some of the worst places in Central America or Africa.
                                          No it compares to it modern industrialized nations with high GDPs and well developed infrastructures and economies. I’d like a source on your claims above about america being on par with third world countries
                                          "From Chaos comes Clarity"

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post

                                            Thanks for the additional insight. I think we all know that economic issues are apart but the degree of influence is something I’d like more info on. Could you link me those sources that I didn’t cite above for my own edification. As you may have read I am taking part in a community program aimed at getting cops and the community to listen to each other and I’d like some more firepower for discussions. It would be much appreciated.
                                            I’ll send you my bibliography if you’d like. I’ll see if I can PM it to you, if not, I can email it to you. What type of community do you live in and what’re some of the issues you’re facing?


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                                            • Originally posted by tommyIRISH23 View Post

                                              I’ll send you my bibliography if you’d like. I’ll see if I can PM it to you, if not, I can email it to you. What type of community do you live in and what’re some of the issues you’re facing?


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                                              I live in Charleston. Let’s just say racial issues and huge income disparity in an urban setting plus it’s a historical center of slave trade, confederate symbols. Lots of history of the black population being oppressed and lots of reminders of it wherever you go. Lots of distrust as well.

                                              Also is the place of the Walter Scott and Emanuel shootings
                                              "From Chaos comes Clarity"

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                                              • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

                                                Yeah but those situations are very hard to mimic. No matter what the training scenario is, you still know it’s training. The stakes are significantly higher in real life. But more training is always good. Technology today makes training much more realistic.

                                                And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations?

                                                I don’t know what the national standard is for training. Overhaul is probably extreme, maybe more consistent training? The training I’ve received is pretty good. Again more hands on training is always a great idea.

                                                Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

                                                Yeah again more training would never hurt but it’s still just training. In a high stress situation you revert to your most basic, fundamental level of training. So yeah repetitive hands on training on tactical approaches and also on deescalation scenarios is a good idea .

                                                The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.

                                                Yeah this is the trillion dollar question. I don’t think there is one answer because it’s not just one question. It’s hundreds of questions with thousands of answers. A lot of those answers probably aren’t the answers that people want to hear either. It’s definitely not a good situation.

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                                                • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post
                                                  I live in Charleston. Let’s just say racial issues and huge income disparity in an urban setting plus it’s a historical center of slave trade, confederate symbols. Lots of history of the black population being oppressed and lots of reminders of it wherever you go. Lots of distrust as well.

                                                  Also is the place of the Walter Scott and Emanuel shootings
                                                  Wonderful city! I’ve been there a few times. It’s in my 20 year plan to move there (or Florida) once i retire haha. I’ll PM you and we can talk a little more and not hijack the thread


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                                                  • Originally posted by tommyIRISH23 View Post

                                                    Wonderful city! I’ve been there a few times. It’s in my 20 year plan to move there (or Florida) once i retire haha. I’ll PM you and we can talk a little more and not hijack the thread


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                                                    Worth looking into Georgia as well. My folks looked at homes in Florida and Savannah, settled on Georgia. More house for your money apparently. I can't recall if Charleston was on their short-list or not, dad has spoken highly of it though.
                                                    Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                                    • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post

                                                      Just saying ..... he literally destroyed your previous post since you tried to to dilute deadly encounters with ALL police encounters. Based on his statement violent predispositions are way more likely to produce deadly outcomes than the mundane encounters you tries to include.


                                                      and I agree with his statement as well hence why I posted the series of stats showing the need for more data.
                                                      Im beginning to think you have no clue what police are meant for.

                                                      Everything he listed as risk factors have nothing to do with policing except AS A RESULT it puts police in those situations where the the risk factors come to head.

                                                      Police do not control city lighting
                                                      Police do not control abandoned houses
                                                      Police do not bring the drugs into the community
                                                      Police do not control who becomes a gang member.

                                                      Socioeconomic problems are not because of the police. Socioeconomic factors and the RESULTS of those factors is typically where police get involved.

                                                      Parents, teachers, youth programs, educational programs, parental programs... the whole fucking community is responsible for the violent predispositions more than the police. Police are just there to clean the shit up. We are lazily talking police reform but forgetting the whole community.

                                                      My whole point in pointing out the number of interactions and then ALSO listing the number of higher stress moments between civilian and police in arrests is to point out police do things right a lot more than wrong. So much so that statistically it’s barely a thing.

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                                                      • Originally posted by Irish YJ View Post

                                                        All of this.

                                                        We have to ignore politics and do multiple things.

                                                        At minimum....
                                                        1. ​​​​​​​don't shoot people that are defenseless and without weapons
                                                        2. prosecute LEOs to the fullest if they misuse powers
                                                        3. don't defend those that have guns and threaten LEO or others
                                                        4. BODY CAM FOR ALL LEOS.... WTF is simpler
                                                        5. stop silly defund stuff
                                                        Body cams for all won’t happen until they get the funding for the servers and storage space to keep the videos. That’s where most of the money is spent.
                                                        Brotherhood may fade, but it will never run

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                                                        • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                          Im beginning to think you have no clue what police are meant for.

                                                          Everything he listed as risk factors have nothing to do with policing except AS A RESULT it puts police in those situations where the the risk factors come to head.

                                                          Police do not control city lighting
                                                          Police do not control abandoned houses
                                                          Police do not bring the drugs into the community
                                                          Police do not control who becomes a gang member.

                                                          Socioeconomic problems are not because of the police. Socioeconomic factors and the RESULTS of those factors is typically where police get involved.

                                                          Parents, teachers, youth programs, educational programs, parental programs... the whole fucking community is responsible for the violent predispositions more than the police. Police are just there to clean the shit up. We are lazily talking police reform but forgetting the whole community.

                                                          My whole point in pointing out the number of interactions and then ALSO listing the number of higher stress moments between civilian and police in arrests is to point out police do things right a lot more than wrong. So much so that statistically it’s barely a thing.
                                                          I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

                                                          Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

                                                          The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.
                                                          Brotherhood may fade, but it will never run

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                                                          • Originally posted by Cackalacky2.0 View Post

                                                            No it compares to it modern industrialized nations with high GDPs and well developed infrastructures and economies. I’d like a source on your claims above about america being on par with third world countries
                                                            Hover your cursor over the various countries and it gives the homicide and rape rates for that country. Our numbers are comparable to those of several third world hell holes. It's not that police can't or shouldn't do a better job - they should - but police in the US are dealing with circumstances, cultural issues, and crime rates that Japan, Iceland, and most other wealthy and developed nations don't have to deal with.
                                                            Violent Crime Rates by Country 2021 (worldpopulationreview.com)

                                                            Winners see success and want to climb up to its level. Losers see success and want to drag it down to their own.

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                                                            • Originally posted by irishff1014 View Post

                                                              Body cams for all won’t happen until they get the funding for the servers and storage space to keep the videos. That’s where most of the money is spent.
                                                              Servers and disk storage is a cop out if a city says they don't have the funding. Disk storage is dirt cheap anymore along with servers. Didn't Uncle Joe say part of his grand plan was to provide funding for cities to get body cams? If you're going to keep using your credit card, you might as well max it out, then ask for an increase in your credit limit.

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                                                              • Originally posted by irishff1014 View Post

                                                                I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

                                                                Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

                                                                The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.
                                                                It's easier to blame a group rather than take a hard look at the root and own up to it.

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                                                                • Originally posted by irishff1014 View Post
                                                                  https://www.wboc.com/story/43778105/...be-organ-donor

                                                                  It sucks anywhere but these are My people. This one of my police departments we work with in dispatch. This an agency my best friend of 20 plus years works for. This the town my family lives in. I am at a loss of words. I am angry, I am pissed and most of all I am heartbroken.

                                                                  This just goes to show that a gun doesn’t have to be present for an officer to die. And you all can say what you want people that get locked up numerous times and use drugs over and over don’t change and this another case to prove it. On our case search this suspect has been charged with something 38 times and he just turned 30.
                                                                  That is sad.

                                                                  Now, imagine if someone said, "Well, you know only about 50 police officers are murdered while on duty each year from 300 million interactions" and then using this as a basis for why we really shouldn't care about that death toll. You know, cause statistically it's barely a thing anyway.

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                                                                  • Originally posted by irishff1014 View Post

                                                                    I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

                                                                    Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

                                                                    The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.
                                                                    Who is not pro police? I haven't seen a single poster say anything resembling being anti-police. Have there been posts about reduced funding for police? or about how they are doing a terrible job? Or how they should be shut down? This is a serious question, I thought there were essentially two sides here: some saying the police do a good enough job, their issues are largely a statistical anomaly and trying to help them improve is pointless vs. the side that says the police force is doing what they can but we need to equip them with more. More training, more preparation, better pay, more transparency.

                                                                    Of course, I haven't gone very far back and only entered into the discussion in the past couple weeks. What am I missing?

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                                                                    • Originally posted by irishff1014 View Post

                                                                      I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

                                                                      Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

                                                                      The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.
                                                                      You know the teen pregnancy rate has been continually falling right? I can't stand this whole "back in my day" bs. It doesn't help solve any issues, and it's disingenuous. You romanticize the past as if everything was so much better, when more often then not, the data doesn't back it up.

                                                                      I'm also pretty sure, besides NJNP, this board is pro police, along with pro police reforms. No one here wants to abolish police. No one here is yelling Fuck the police! Your drive by shots like this are old.

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                                                                      • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                                        It's easier to blame a group rather than take a hard look at the root and own up to it.
                                                                        This is 100% correct, blaming a group of people that have been historically disadvantaged by both parties and have faced discrimination throughout history is such a terrible cop out. Easy to blame the absent dad when you've thrown him in jail for trivial things. Privatized prison! Wooooooo

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                                                                        • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                          This is 100% correct, blaming a group of people that have been historically disadvantaged by both parties and have faced discrimination throughout history is such a terrible cop out. Easy to blame the absent dad when you've thrown him in jail for trivial things. Privatized prison! Wooooooo
                                                                          I agree but also disagree. At some point there needs to be some accountability for ones own actions.

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                                                                          • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                                            I agree but also disagree. At some point there needs to be some accountability for ones own actions.
                                                                            Of course, but when there is a profit motive to continue sending people to prison nothing really matters in terms of taking care of people and providing rehabilitation.

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                                                                            • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                                              It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

                                                                              And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations? Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

                                                                              The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.
                                                                              On the first part. Yes. But when you say "these kind of situations" what are you talking about? More training in what? Do you not think the police are well aware of socioeconomic issues? They see it everyday. They are the middle man between bad governmental policy / socioeconomics and the results of those.

                                                                              I kind of think a lot people see policing totally wrong. I sort of see this like saying we are blaming the trash guy for all the nations trash. The trash guys job is to collect the garbage and trasnport it to where its supposed to go. There is nothing that trash man can do to mitigate how much trash there is in the streets. I am in no way calling criminals trash... And I know more than enough to know police do more than "take out the trash". But their job is not really to mitigate or prevent crime, their job is to enforce laws.

                                                                              To the second bolded... there is no acountability. The police are being held accountable for damn near everything. The same mayors and government officials bitching and moaning about their own police but totally forget their policies and lack of programming/education are the ones that need be accountable.

                                                                              Here in NM we are way too nice to nonviolent offenders. I am in a "Group Me" group with local detectives and retail stores. Its main focus is loss prevention. Its the same guys all day long. We all know them by name and their mode of operation. The state and cities stick out their chest on the incarceration rates and populations on a rapide decline but totally ignore the increase in crime, especially on small business. Rinse and repeat.
                                                                              Last edited by Blazers46; 04-30-2021, 12:38 PM.

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                                                                              • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                Of course, but when there is a profit motive to continue sending people to prison nothing really matters in terms of taking care of people and providing rehabilitation.
                                                                                There is still a cost and currently the prison population is on the decline. In fact violent crime rates have been on the way down the last 30 years, total arrest are down about 35% over the same time frame.

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                                                                                • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                                                  Who is not pro police? I haven't seen a single poster say anything resembling being anti-police. Have there been posts about reduced funding for police? or about how they are doing a terrible job? Or how they should be shut down? This is a serious question, I thought there were essentially two sides here: some saying the police do a good enough job, their issues are largely a statistical anomaly and trying to help them improve is pointless vs. the side that says the police force is doing what they can but we need to equip them with more. More training, more preparation, better pay, more transparency.

                                                                                  Of course, I haven't gone very far back and only entered into the discussion in the past couple weeks. What am I missing?
                                                                                  If you go back about a year. There were several that want defunding or changes that basically stripped police of most of their authority. I haven't seen them on here in a while though.


                                                                                  Edit: NJNP is one that GowerND11 mentioned.

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                                                                                  • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                    This is 100% correct, blaming a group of people that have been historically disadvantaged by both parties and have faced discrimination throughout history is such a terrible cop out. Easy to blame the absent dad when you've thrown him in jail for trivial things. Privatized prison! Wooooooo
                                                                                    Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                    Of course, but when there is a profit motive to continue sending people to prison nothing really matters in terms of taking care of people and providing rehabilitation.


                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                    • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                                                      There is still a cost and currently the prison population is on the decline. In fact violent crime rates have been on the way down the last 30 years, total arrest are down about 35% over the same time frame.
                                                                                      https://www.statista.com/statistics/...0-inhabitants/

                                                                                      Which country doesn't belong on this list.

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                                                                                      • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                        https://www.statista.com/statistics/...0-inhabitants/

                                                                                        Which country doesn't belong on this list.
                                                                                        Canada

                                                                                        Maybe there are Americans that can seek Asylum to Canada since America is so oppressive.

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                                                                                        • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                                                          Canada

                                                                                          Maybe there are Americans that can seek Asylum to Canada since America is so oppressive.
                                                                                          "Enjoy gun violence? But don't want to go to prison at quite the same rates as the US, come immigrate to Canada today"

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                          • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                            https://www.statista.com/statistics/...0-inhabitants/

                                                                                            Which country doesn't belong on this list.
                                                                                            Eh... we might be the best country on earth but we got a lot of dumbasses too.

                                                                                            Idk how similar/ different the Canuck justice system is to ours, but if you ever go to court for a week or two, you see so many dumb people who do dumb things and get themselves locked up.

                                                                                            On one hand, you feel bad for some of them because they maybe had a rough life. On the other hand.... quit stealing cars and setting them on fire dude.



                                                                                            Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                                                                            • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post

                                                                                              Eh... we might be the best country on earth but we got a lot of dumbasses too.

                                                                                              Idk how similar/ different the Canuck justice system is to ours, but if you ever go to court for a week or two, you see so many dumb people who do dumb things and get themselves locked up.

                                                                                              On one hand, you feel bad for some of them because they maybe had a rough life. On the other hand.... quit stealing cars and setting them on fire dude.


                                                                                              I am pretty happy.

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                                                                                              • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post

                                                                                                Eh... we might be the best country on earth but we got a lot of dumbasses too.

                                                                                                Idk how similar/ different the Canuck justice system is to ours, but if you ever go to court for a week or two, you see so many dumb people who do dumb things and get themselves locked up.

                                                                                                On one hand, you feel bad for some of them because they maybe had a rough life. On the other hand.... quit stealing cars and setting them on fire dude.


                                                                                                Right but your peer countries should never be places like Rwanda or Turkmenistan. There's no excuse for jailing your citizens that much. American's for the large part aren't violent animals that need to be locked up.

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                                                                                                • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post

                                                                                                  If you go back about a year. There were several that want defunding or changes that basically stripped police of most of their authority. I haven't seen them on here in a while though.


                                                                                                  Edit: NJNP is one that GowerND11 mentioned.
                                                                                                  Fine, there was a poster a year ago that talked about defunding the police. Is that what he means by "this board is not pro police"?

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                  • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                                    Right but your peer countries should never be places like Rwanda or Turkmenistan. There's no excuse for jailing your citizens that much. American's for the large part aren't violent animals that need to be locked up.
                                                                                                    Idk how reliable the data is. The data i found ( https://www.sentencingproject.org/th...state2Option=0 ) has us at 419/100K.

                                                                                                    It also looks like that source has incarceration dropping. I dont know the cause, I suspect changes in drug prosecutions and state level legalization has helped but thats a hunch.
                                                                                                    Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                                                                                    • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                                                                      Fine, there was a poster a year ago that talked about defunding the police. Is that what he means by "this board is not pro police"?
                                                                                                      You will have to ask him that question, as I have no idea. You asked a question and I thought I was being helpful by answering, but apparently not.

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