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  • Pretty insane day today. On our way with the whole family to put our dog down we just missed a DHS and State Police traffic stop that resulted a 28 year officer getting shot and killed. We didn’t see the shooting but we saw the officer laying dead on the side of the road. Link is the story and actual video of Las Cruces police stopping and killing the guy. Unreal. 3 kids, 1 on the way. Can’t unsee that.

    https://www.krqe.com/news/crime/inci...ar-las-cruces/

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post
      Pretty insane day today. On our way with the whole family to put our dog down we just missed a DHS and State Police traffic stop that resulted a 28 year officer getting shot and killed. We didn’t see the shooting but we saw the officer laying dead on the side of the road. Link is the story and actual video of Las Cruces police stopping and killing the guy. Unreal. 3 kids, 1 on the way. Can’t unsee that.

      https://www.krqe.com/news/crime/inci...ar-las-cruces/
      Wow, not good. Prayers for the officer and his family and hoping your kids come through this okay.

      Comment


      • Been catching some of the Chauvin trial.

        Few observations:
        1. Having a nine year old testify when you have plenty of video and no shortage of older and more mature witnesses feels gross. I feel awful for her.

        2. The Firefighter/EMT/ whatever she is came across as a loser. Judge lectured her; loved to see that.

        3. The friend/drug dealer refusing to testify was apparently quite a shock. The girlfriend seemed to say that he had recently OD'ed with similar symptoms.

        4. The police who have testified so far seemed very bad for Chauvin. Said the force used was completely unjustified or some term of art. If I recall, also said kneeling on a neck is not a taught method.

        overall, I'm much more interested in seeing what the coroner testifies. If he died from an OD or something that drug use would lead to (I'm not a science guy), gets a lot harder to make murder stick.

        There are a bunch of rules with egg-shell principles, but-for causation, etc. I'm not sure which ones, if any, will come into the determination.

        Also curious to see if the police lieutenant was correct about the knee/neck thing not being accepted. When this all went down I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that it was considered an acceptable use of force.

        We got any prosecutors or criminal defense guys on here? Anyone else tracking the trial?

        P.S. its amazing to go on twitter and see reactions. People are very entrenched.
        Based Mullet Kid owns

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        • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
          Been catching some of the Chauvin trial.

          Few observations:
          1. Having a nine year old testify when you have plenty of video and no shortage of older and more mature witnesses feels gross. I feel awful for her.

          2. The Firefighter/EMT/ whatever she is came across as a loser. Judge lectured her; loved to see that.

          3. The friend/drug dealer refusing to testify was apparently quite a shock. The girlfriend seemed to say that he had recently OD'ed with similar symptoms.

          4. The police who have testified so far seemed very bad for Chauvin. Said the force used was completely unjustified or some term of art. If I recall, also said kneeling on a neck is not a taught method.

          overall, I'm much more interested in seeing what the coroner testifies. If he died from an OD or something that drug use would lead to (I'm not a science guy), gets a lot harder to make murder stick.

          There are a bunch of rules with egg-shell principles, but-for causation, etc. I'm not sure which ones, if any, will come into the determination.

          Also curious to see if the police lieutenant was correct about the knee/neck thing not being accepted. When this all went down I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that it was considered an acceptable use of force.

          We got any prosecutors or criminal defense guys on here? Anyone else tracking the trial?

          P.S. its amazing to go on twitter and see reactions. People are very entrenched.
          I am surprised its not a topic of discussion as much as it is. I have talked to people that have forgotton who Chauvin is or that there is a trial currently happening.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
            Been catching some of the Chauvin trial.

            Few observations:
            1. Having a nine year old testify when you have plenty of video and no shortage of older and more mature witnesses feels gross. I feel awful for her.

            2. The Firefighter/EMT/ whatever she is came across as a loser. Judge lectured her; loved to see that.

            3. The friend/drug dealer refusing to testify was apparently quite a shock. The girlfriend seemed to say that he had recently OD'ed with similar symptoms.

            4. The police who have testified so far seemed very bad for Chauvin. Said the force used was completely unjustified or some term of art. If I recall, also said kneeling on a neck is not a taught method.

            overall, I'm much more interested in seeing what the coroner testifies. If he died from an OD or something that drug use would lead to (I'm not a science guy), gets a lot harder to make murder stick.

            There are a bunch of rules with egg-shell principles, but-for causation, etc. I'm not sure which ones, if any, will come into the determination.

            Also curious to see if the police lieutenant was correct about the knee/neck thing not being accepted. When this all went down I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that it was considered an acceptable use of force.

            We got any prosecutors or criminal defense guys on here? Anyone else tracking the trial?

            P.S. its amazing to go on twitter and see reactions. People are very entrenched.
            I remember reading months ago about how the prosecutor “over charged” Chauvin when it didn’t seem the evidence would warrant a conviction b/c the burden was too high. Honestly I haven’t paid much attention b/c I figured it’d be a circus. I did see the judge scold the EMT...that was good. By all accounts, Chauvin seems like a bad actor.

            Fentanyl is a serious narcotic. I recently had a friend from high school OD on it. CPR didn’t work & then the EMT hit him w/ Noloxone multiple times before he finally came back. Obviously, that’s anecdotal and not every case is identical. It’s used a lot medically w/ an anesthesia for conscious-sedation.

            Hopefully, justice is served.

            Comment


            • Didn't get to see the testimony, but looks like the prosecution was using a resident physician to suggest the autopsy was wrong about cause of death.

              Also sounds like the defense countered him by getting him to admit his theory of the cause of death could also happen as a result of OD on the drugs in his system.

              The theory I'm seeing as to why his friend/dealer/witness won't testify is that if it was indeed the drugs that killed or contributed to killing Mr. Floyd, then he could be facing charges. I'm not sure how that shit works at all.

              Courtroom drama.
              Based Mullet Kid owns

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              • Coming up on the anniversary of the Boston Marathon Bombing, when for the first time I truly realized the resources American law enforcement had. Seeing those images on TV, of a police force in suburban Boston and the equipement/vehicles they had while searching for that suspect is something I'll remember the rest of my life. This wasn't Federal law enforcement, this was Watertown, MA's police force. A few months later at our village Fourth of July parade, similar vehicles were on display in my midwestern town. Has stuck with me ever since.

                Was also the first time an police department announced an arrest via Twitter if I recall correctly.

                It was another example of how people came together amid crisis and tragedy. Something I think we do quite well in this country when the chips are down.
                It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rogue219 View Post
                  Coming up on the anniversary of the Boston Marathon Bombing, when for the first time I truly realized the resources American law enforcement had. Seeing those images on TV, of a police force in suburban Boston and the equipement/vehicles they had while searching for that suspect is something I'll remember the rest of my life. This wasn't Federal law enforcement, this was Watertown, MA's police force. A few months later at our village Fourth of July parade, similar vehicles were on display in my midwestern town. Has stuck with me ever since.

                  Was also the first time an police department announced an arrest via Twitter if I recall correctly.

                  It was another example of how people came together amid crisis and tragedy. Something I think we do quite well in this country when the chips are down.
                  I had a similar but opposite reaction to Boston. I remember thinking it was insane that this guy could lockdown millions of people and that the city of Boston was seeimingly so helpless against him. Reading about how the government tracked down Jan 6th Capitol protestors with license plate tracking, social media monitoring, and more was insane to me. If the gub’ment wants you, they’ll find you.
                  Running the damn ball since 2017.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

                    I had a similar but opposite reaction to Boston. I remember thinking it was insane that this guy could lockdown millions of people and that the city of Boston was seeimingly so helpless against him. Reading about how the government tracked down Jan 6th Capitol protestors with license plate tracking, social media monitoring, and more was insane to me. If the gub’ment wants you, they’ll find you.
                    Just a matter of time.

                    Can't remember the name of the show that was on several years ago, maybe "Man Hunters"? Pairs were to act like criminals and avoid being captured. They could go anywhere they wanted. The trackers were former law enforcement that used license plate readers, social media, cell phones, credit cards, spoke to relatives, friends, etc. Rarely did a couple win.

                    Comment


                    • Anyone keeping up with the Chauvin Trial. I don't think the proesecution is doing a good job. One of thier witnesses testified Chauvins knee was on Floyds back, not neck. Add him having enough drugs in his system to a horse, his own recent overdose history and Floyd complaining he could not breath even before being on the ground just seems to leave a lot open for reasonable doubt. I am not sure buildings will be safe once a verdict comes out.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post
                        Anyone keeping up with the Chauvin Trial. I don't think the proesecution is doing a good job. One of thier witnesses testified Chauvins knee was on Floyds back, not neck. Add him having enough drugs in his system to a horse, his own recent overdose history and Floyd complaining he could not breath even before being on the ground just seems to leave a lot open for reasonable doubt. I am not sure buildings will be safe once a verdict comes out.
                        The medical examiner just said he died from the police.

                        He could still be found not guilty but thats pretty tough for the defense.

                        Then again, he also said from the video, blood flow would have been fine. Dude had nearly 4x the amount of drugs in his system of some of his OD autopsies. Dude had an exceptionally large heart and pretty bad heart disease.

                        Seemed to suggest to me that the average bear wouldn't have died from this. But he did die from the police actions.

                        Last edited by NorthDakota; 04-09-2021, 04:02 PM.
                        Based Mullet Kid owns

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post

                          The medical examiner just said he died from the police.

                          He could still be found not guilty but thats pretty tough for the defense.

                          Then again, he also said from the video, blood flow would have been fine. Dude had nearly 4x the amount of drugs in his system of some of his OD autopsies. Dude had an exceptionally large heart and pretty bad heart disease.

                          Seemed to suggest to me that the average bear wouldn't have died from this. But he did die from the police actions.
                          Sounds like reasonable doubt...

                          A lot conflicting testimony. The coroner once reported if they found him dead with no context they would have labeled it a clear drug overdose. I’m not lawyer but I have been on many courtrooms for situations like these and they can either way, depending on how the jury interprets reasonable doubt and the case as a whole.

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                          • Anyone see the incident in Virginia where police pulled over a military officer? He had a paper license plate in the rear window the police couldn’t see so they pulled him over. The guy was fully cooperating yet the officers drew guns and pepper sprayed him. The primary officer in the incident has been fired.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                              Anyone see the incident in Virginia where police pulled over a military officer? He had a paper license plate in the rear window the police couldn’t see so they pulled him over. The guy was fully cooperating yet the officers drew guns and pepper sprayed him. The primary officer in the incident has been fired.
                              Missed that one. Had my eyes on Minnesota, where the locals are pissed about another police officer shooting another black man. In order to get justice, they're torching the city they live in and grabbing as many Nike's as they can from Foot Locker.
                              The yellow mustard pants are hideous and have to go.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
                                Then again, he also said from the video, blood flow would have been fine. Dude had nearly 4x the amount of drugs in his system of some of his OD autopsies. Dude had an exceptionally large heart and pretty bad heart disease.
                                Do you have any citation for this claim?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post

                                  The medical examiner just said he died from the police.

                                  He could still be found not guilty but thats pretty tough for the defense.

                                  Then again, he also said from the video, blood flow would have been fine. Dude had nearly 4x the amount of drugs in his system of some of his OD autopsies. Dude had an exceptionally large heart and pretty bad heart disease.

                                  Seemed to suggest to me that the average bear wouldn't have died from this. But he did die from the police actions.
                                  lol yes they would

                                  You should try letting someone with 30 to 40 pounds of equipment kneel on your neck for almost 9 minutes to see if you would survive.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post

                                    Missed that one. Had my eyes on Minnesota, where the locals are pissed about another police officer shooting another black man. In order to get justice, they're torching the city they live in and grabbing as many Nike's as they can from Foot Locker.
                                    And the MN governor immediately and with no facts whatsoever, tweeted out something along the lines of "another Black life taken by officers". How has this guy not learned? Everyone in that state deserves what's coming for voting for it, a vote for a Dem is a vote against police support.

                                    What a terrible move. Soak it all up, you asked for it.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                      Anyone see the incident in Virginia where police pulled over a military officer? He had a paper license plate in the rear window the police couldn’t see so they pulled him over. The guy was fully cooperating yet the officers drew guns and pepper sprayed him. The primary officer in the incident has been fired.
                                      So crazy man, was talking with my buddy who has the exact same name as Daniel Shaver about that incident over the weekend. Just horrifying to watch that video.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                        Anyone see the incident in Virginia where police pulled over a military officer? He had a paper license plate in the rear window the police couldn’t see so they pulled him over. The guy was fully cooperating yet the officers drew guns and pepper sprayed him. The primary officer in the incident has been fired.
                                        Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                        So crazy man, was talking with my buddy who has the exact same name as Daniel Shaver about that incident over the weekend. Just horrifying to watch that video.
                                        I assume they had guns drawn and were juiced up because he didn't stop right away. He drove less than a mile with his flashers on and pulled over into a well-lit area.

                                        The cops assumed he was up to no good or buying himself time for something, I'm sure, so they had guns drawn in the event of what they perceived as a potential threat.

                                        The problem is that they left themselves zero room for de-escalation at that point. Once they realized he was complying and showing that he was not a threat, they should've chilled. But not all cops are emotionally equipped to settle down once the adrenaline gets going... and that's a major problem in policing that appears to be pretty pervasive.

                                        You could argue that the Lieutenant was not complying with their commands, but their commands were unlawful in the first place, I would think. That would explain the cops trying to talk him down after medics showed up and asking him if he'd "be cool" if they didn't give him any citations.

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                                        • Originally posted by TP81989 View Post

                                          lol yes they would

                                          You should try letting someone with 30 to 40 pounds of equipment kneel on your neck for almost 9 minutes to see if you would survive.
                                          Lol the cop isn't wearing 30-40 pounds of gear, and I believe Mr. Chauvin is a particularly scrawny man. Regardless, the medical examiner seemed to suggest it. If you got a problem with that, show us where it is wrong.

                                          Seems like the prosecution also has had a problem showing if the knee was on the neck vs. the shoulder blade or back.

                                          I'll let a guy kneel on my neck right after you pump that amount of drugs in your system.
                                          Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                          • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                            So crazy man, was talking with my buddy who has the exact same name as Daniel Shaver about that incident over the weekend. Just horrifying to watch that video.
                                            That video was not great. Felt real bad for the officer*. Could see he was in quite a bind.

                                            Edit: military officer btw, not the cop
                                            Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                            • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
                                              I'll let a guy kneel on my neck right after you pump that amount of drugs in your system.
                                              Can you clarify the amount of drugs for us then?

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by Irish#1 View Post
                                                Anyone see the incident in Virginia where police pulled over a military officer? He had a paper license plate in the rear window the police couldn’t see so they pulled him over. The guy was fully cooperating yet the officers drew guns and pepper sprayed him. The primary officer in the incident has been fired.
                                                Yeah it just defies logic.

                                                First of all, this guy did exactly what he was supposed to do putting on his flashers and pulling over in a well lit area at night. Next, he was was an army officer in uniform that was fully complying with instructions and they came out with guns drawn. Then they pepper spray him for shits and giggles. Oh, and when he had guns drawn on him and said he was afraid to move/get out of the car they said "you should be" (!!!!!) .... like what the fuck you're just going to nonchalantly threaten to shoot the guy?

                                                There are so many cops who are obviously poorly trained, stupid, or otherwise unqualified to have a badge. IMO they need to double or triple police salaries and require a college degree (or some equivalent) to get better recruits.

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                  Can you clarify the amount of drugs for us then?
                                                  Right after you guys clarify how much of the time the cop was on his neck vs. his shoulder/back.

                                                  I believe the number in the toxicology report was 11 (insert relevant unit of measurement) of Fentynol alone.

                                                  Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                                  • Originally posted by IrishLion View Post

                                                    I assume they had guns drawn and were juiced up because he didn't stop right away. He drove less than a mile with his flashers on and pulled over into a well-lit area.

                                                    The cops assumed he was up to no good or buying himself time for something, I'm sure, so they had guns drawn in the event of what they perceived as a potential threat.

                                                    The problem is that they left themselves zero room for de-escalation at that point. Once they realized he was complying and showing that he was not a threat, they should've chilled. But not all cops are emotionally equipped to settle down once the adrenaline gets going... and that's a major problem in policing that appears to be pretty pervasive.

                                                    You could argue that the Lieutenant was not complying with their commands, but their commands were unlawful in the first place, I would think. That would explain the cops trying to talk him down after medics showed up and asking him if he'd "be cool" if they didn't give him any citations.
                                                    Can confirm. I did that once to get off the highway with a wife and two kids in the car. I drove about 1/4-1/2 a mile to turn off the busy highway in winter (for safety) and I thought the cop was going to shoot me. The cop was an idiot and got waaay too excited. Apparently, you're supposed to stop right away. I had my hands way up as I was also armed and tried to tell my hot-headed wife to calm the F down.

                                                    I'd be curious to hear the cops side, but it doesn't look like this response was in anyway justified. I also try to remember that these cops deal with the scum of the earth routinely and a respectful instruction likely doesn't always work. Looking at the rioting happening outside of Minneapolis right now is a smooth reminder that these cops are dealing with some not-good people.
                                                    Running the damn ball since 2017.

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                                                    • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post

                                                      Right after you guys clarify how much of the time the cop was on his neck vs. his shoulder/back.

                                                      I believe the number in the toxicology report was 11 (insert relevant unit of measurement) of Fentynol alone.
                                                      In other words, nowhere near 4x the amount of drugs in his system for an average OD victim, like you claimed.

                                                      Floyd had 11 nanograms of fentanyl per milliliter and a low level of meth in his system, per the toxicology report.

                                                      That level of fentanyl is far below a typical overdose. Of course, we know the motivation behind why people are lying about Floyd's drug use.

                                                      Even if it were true, and Floyd was some raving drug addict stumbling through the store on death's doorstep instead of acting completely normal, that doesn't make Chauvin's actions any less shocking. It would've turned into a medical crisis and kneeling on a guy pleading for his life while he loses breath as you refuse care seems like a pretty piss poor excuse to get off for murder.

                                                      Comment


                                                      • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                        In other words, nowhere near 4x the amount of drugs in his system for an average OD victim, like you claimed.

                                                        Floyd had 11 nanograms of fentanyl per milliliter and a low level of meth in his system, per the toxicology report.

                                                        That level of fentanyl is far below a typical overdose. Of course, we know the motivation behind why people are lying about Floyd's drug use.

                                                        Even if it were true, and Floyd was some raving drug addict stumbling through the store on death's doorstep instead of acting completely normal, that doesn't make Chauvin's actions any less shocking. It would've turned into a medical crisis and kneeling on a guy pleading for his life while he loses breath as you refuse care seems like a pretty piss poor excuse to get off for murder.
                                                        The medical examiner said he'd seen OD's as low as 3 nanograms (I believe). I dont recall anyone asserting what a normal OD level is. I believe the medical examiner also said had they found Floyd at home, they'd have assumed it was an OD, or something to that effect.

                                                        For me, murder is a high bar. Dude complaining he can't breathe before the cops do anything... dude is visibly high on drugs that can apparently cause problems... seems like reasonable doubt might be there.

                                                        Derek Chauvin seems like an asshole. I wouldn't call him a murderer i don't think though.
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                                                        • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

                                                          Can confirm. I did that once to get off the highway with a wife and two kids in the car. I drove about 1/4-1/2 a mile to turn off the busy highway in winter (for safety) and I thought the cop was going to shoot me. The cop was an idiot and got waaay too excited. Apparently, you're supposed to stop right away. I had my hands way up as I was also armed and tried to tell my hot-headed wife to calm the F down.

                                                          I'd be curious to hear the cops side, but it doesn't look like this response was in anyway justified. I also try to remember that these cops deal with the scum of the earth routinely and a respectful instruction likely doesn't always work. Looking at the rioting happening outside of Minneapolis right now is a smooth reminder that these cops are dealing with some not-good people.
                                                          I generally give cops a pretty extended leash because like you said, they deal with bad people quite often. But that video was pretty tough. Unless there was something major off-camera that happened, seemed completely unwarranted.


                                                          Did anyone see the video of the state police guy in New Mexico getting murdered? Was pretty surreal to see a normal traffic stop go from routine to bad so quickly.
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                                                          • Originally posted by TP81989 View Post

                                                            lol yes they would

                                                            You should try letting someone with 30 to 40 pounds of equipment kneel on your neck for almost 9 minutes to see if you would survive.
                                                            Camera angles and testimony has Chauvens knee on his upper back. I have worked in policing and jails as well as residential treatment centers. I have seen worse and lesser men have survived. Sadly I have seen kids in detention centers and group homes survive worse. We once had a mentally handicap 16 year old go off. At the group home they described it as "super human retard strength". They had the kid pinned down for about an hour before he finally calmed down.They were on his back and pretty much in the same position Chauven was. I am not excusing Chauvens behavior and to be completely transparent Chauvens misake was not the knee to the kneck/back but the dumb ass just stayed there even after it was a clear medical emergency. That was his mistake.

                                                            I worked at a place in Queen Creek Arizona (wont say the name but I am sure you can google it and name the place) that restrains kids on the daily. One of the big bullies in our cottage they restrained for about 20 minutes. intentionally bending and twisting him just so the pod could see him get worked over. I have seen many many of these George Floyd type incidents with zero death. Many of which could be seen as questionable or even illegal. Often times longer restraints were warranted. I was just a social worker not a guard or whatever they call them so I was rarely involved in restraints. What bugs me is when there were investigations the one being investigated was typically thrown under the bus by the very same people that might have or probably has done the same thing. The big thing in policing and jails is getting compliance. With the guys in a facility if you show an ounce of weakness you become a target yourself. Its a hard balance between respect and compliance. Typically those on your watch know if someone "deserved" what they got. If you go around busting heads you better be big enough and strong enough to back that up too. in Chauvens case I see him reacting to the crowd sort of showing them who is boss... sort of like saying "I will get off when I am good and ready to get off". In his mind he is taking control of situation by presense and force and probably had the attitude of "how dare these punks tell me what to do".

                                                            Comment


                                                            • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
                                                              The medical examiner said he'd seen OD's as low as 3 nanograms (I believe). I dont recall anyone asserting what a normal OD level is. I believe the medical examiner also said had they found Floyd at home, they'd have assumed it was an OD, or something to that effect.
                                                              The medical examiner ruled it a homicide. Someone can OD on a dangerous drug from a miniscule amount. Normally, those people aren't walking around in a store.

                                                              Dude complaining he can't breathe before the cops do anything...
                                                              Why wouldn't the cops get him medical help then?

                                                              dude is visibly high on drugs that can apparently cause problems...
                                                              Sooo, why wouldn't you get someone help in this situation??

                                                              seems like reasonable doubt might be there.
                                                              Reasonable doubt about what? That we get to play pretend and act like Chauvin didn't kneel on a guy until he died?

                                                              Derek Chauvin seems like an asshole. I wouldn't call him a murderer i don't think though.
                                                              I know this, that's why you're spreading the misinformation that Floyd was ludicrously high on drugs like that's a fine defense for Chauvin.



                                                              Comment


                                                              • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                Why wouldn't the cops get him medical help then?
                                                                He had nothing preventing him from breathing normally. He was clearly under the influence when they attempted to place him in the car. Did you expect them to let him go and see a doctor? This seems incredibly naive.



                                                                Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                Reasonable doubt about what? That we get to play pretend and act like Chauvin didn't kneel on a guy until he died?

                                                                I know this, that's why you're spreading the misinformation that Floyd was ludicrously high on drugs like that's a fine defense for Chauvin.
                                                                This would seem to be the gist of the trial. Did Floyd die because of the actions of Chauvin and if so, were they justifiable use of force?
                                                                If his autopsy doesn't reflect death due to that knee and it seems like evidence supports and contradicts this conclusion, then this is no slam dunk. If he did die to a combination of force and what's in his body, is that on Chauvin? It also seems like there will evidence supporting and condemning his use of force. Not hard to see how one could validate the bias they walked in with or reasonably have a doubt that limits them from a murder charge. Seems like Manslaughter would have been the better charge to aim for.
                                                                https://famous-trials.com/george-flo...icology-report


                                                                You also have riots and demonstrations occurring right now over this shooting that wasn't far away to potentially impact the jury-

                                                                https://nypost.com/2021/04/12/daunte...ium=SocialFlow
                                                                Running the damn ball since 2017.

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                                                                • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post
                                                                  He had nothing preventing him from breathing normally. He was clearly under the influence when they attempted to place him in the car. Did you expect them to let him go and see a doctor? This seems incredibly naive.
                                                                  No, but it's not unusual for suspects to suddenly complain of medical issues when they're about to be in police custody. At that point, the police are supposed to call EMT's (or let the firefighters check on the suspect if the fire department got called for staging without the ambulance present), make sure the suspect isn't actually experiencing a medical emergency, and then proceed with the arrest as usual.

                                                                  It's a giant waste of time and resources, but that's the reality of policing/firefighting in a big city. You go out of your way to cover your ass to be absolutely sure that (1) someone doesn't die, and (2) to make sure you don't hold liability in the rarest of occurrences where a suspect really IS in medical danger.

                                                                  Originally posted by drayer54 View Post
                                                                  This would seem to be the gist of the trial. Did Floyd die because of the actions of Chauvin and if so, were they justifiable use of force?
                                                                  If his autopsy doesn't reflect death due to that knee and it seems like evidence supports and contradicts this conclusion, then this is no slam dunk. If he did die to a combination of force and what's in his body, is that on Chauvin? It also seems like there will evidence supporting and condemning his use of force. Not hard to see how one could validate the bias they walked in with or reasonably have a doubt that limits them from a murder charge.
                                                                  IMO, yes. He's the arresting officer, he shares responsibility for what's happening on the scene when he's directly involved. And he was directly involved in not just detaining the guy, but ignoring all of the signs that the suspect was in medical distress. That's negligence, or worse depending on how the trial unfolds. I haven't been actively watching, so idk if he's spoken on his own behalf or not yet.

                                                                  Is negligence enough to convict for murder? Or would that just be manslaughter? I'm only well-versed in bird law.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                  • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post
                                                                    He had nothing preventing him from breathing normally. He was clearly under the influence when they attempted to place him in the car. Did you expect them to let him go and see a doctor? This seems incredibly naive.
                                                                    See a doctor? Well, I'm not sure I love the way they treated him before Chauvin even arrived, but at least maybe don't kneel on his neck for almost 10 minutes eh?

                                                                    This would seem to be the gist of the trial. Did Floyd die because of the actions of Chauvin and if so, were they justifiable use of force?
                                                                    If his autopsy doesn't reflect death due to that knee and it seems like evidence supports and contradicts this conclusion, then this is no slam dunk. If he did die to a combination of force and what's in his body, is that on Chauvin? It also seems like there will evidence supporting and condemning his use of force. Not hard to see how one could validate the bias they walked in with or reasonably have a doubt that limits them from a murder charge. Seems like Manslaughter would have been the better charge to aim for.
                                                                    I'm not sure we're watching the same trial, tbh.

                                                                    So far, the defense has been absolutely hammered by medical professionals. The pulmonologist, medical examiner, toxicologist, forensic medicine physician, forensic pathologist, and senior ER resident all testified for death by asphyxiation. The paramedic said Floyd was dead when he arrived and was upset the police hadn't worked on him. The off-duty firefighter tried to help and was told to back away by police. The Minneapolis Police Dept medical coordinator testified the police should've given aid to Floyd and that Chauvin should know just because Floyd could speak doesn't mean he could breath properly.

                                                                    Another cardiologist testified today that Floyd didn't die from a heart attack, nor from a drug overdose. Last week, a bunch of law enforcement testified that Chauvin did not follow training and his use of force was excessive.

                                                                    Maybe things change when the defense gets their chance to call witnesses, but my goodness, this DRUGS and REASONABLE DOUBT talk so far looks like nothing but a right-wing blog fever dream.



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                                                                    • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                      See a doctor? Well, I'm not sure I love the way they treated him before Chauvin even arrived, but at least maybe don't kneel on his neck for almost 10 minutes eh?



                                                                      I'm not sure we're watching the same trial, tbh.

                                                                      So far, the defense has been absolutely hammered by medical professionals. The pulmonologist, medical examiner, toxicologist, forensic medicine physician, forensic pathologist, and senior ER resident all testified for death by asphyxiation. The paramedic said Floyd was dead when he arrived and was upset the police hadn't worked on him. The off-duty firefighter tried to help and was told to back away by police. The Minneapolis Police Dept medical coordinator testified the police should've given aid to Floyd and that Chauvin should know just because Floyd could speak doesn't mean he could breath properly.

                                                                      Another cardiologist testified today that Floyd didn't die from a heart attack, nor from a drug overdose. Last week, a bunch of law enforcement testified that Chauvin did not follow training and his use of force was excessive.

                                                                      Maybe things change when the defense gets their chance to call witnesses, but my goodness, this DRUGS and REASONABLE DOUBT talk so far looks like nothing but a right-wing blog fever dream.


                                                                      Agreed on all of this. Someone taking drugs isn't a reason to view them deserving of force. Chauvin, by all accounts, was excessive in force, insensitive to a non-combative person in his custody and killed him with either lethal intent or more likely, lethal negligence and over-aggression.

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                                                                      • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                        The medical examiner ruled it a homicide. Someone can OD on a dangerous drug from a miniscule amount. Normally, those people aren't walking around in a store.



                                                                        Why wouldn't the cops get him medical help then?



                                                                        Sooo, why wouldn't you get someone help in this situation??



                                                                        Reasonable doubt about what? That we get to play pretend and act like Chauvin didn't kneel on a guy until he died?



                                                                        I know this, that's why you're spreading the misinformation that Floyd was ludicrously high on drugs like that's a fine defense for Chauvin.


                                                                        A homicide is not necessarily a murder, I think we all know that.

                                                                        Employee testimony and bodycams make it pretty f'ing clear that the dude was high. That's not misinformation. Not sure why you would try suggesting that. If you want to suggest it shouldn't matter if he was high, that's fine, but trying to suggest that he wasn't high seems a bit strange. It's reasonable to assume if the cashier at the Casey's General Store can tell from our limited interaction that I am high, then my state could be characterized as "visibly high."

                                                                        Further, it sounds like the investigation found chewed up pills in the back of the squad car that Mr. Floyd probably spit up or out. Seems entirely possible that he was not at his peak intoxication while in the store, may have ingested them upon getting pulled over. Hell, they got the guy on video possibly saying something along the lines of "I ate too many drugs." On the other hand, he may have said "i aint doing any drugs" or something like that.

                                                                        Police also testified that people routinely lie about having medical problems. I presume they are numb to those sort of complaints on occasion. If a guy is screaming at me that they cannot breathe when I'm not touching them, I suspect I might ignore their complaints.

                                                                        The police are not on trial for failing to get him medical assistance quickly enough. Whether they should have tried to get him help sooner or not doesn't seem particularly relevant to a murder/manslaughter trial.










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                                                                        • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                          See a doctor? Well, I'm not sure I love the way they treated him before Chauvin even arrived, but at least maybe don't kneel on his neck for almost 10 minutes eh?

                                                                          Some angles look like kneeling on a neck. Other angles certainly look like a shoulder or back. Even witnesses had to admit that in cross-examination.
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                                                                          • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
                                                                            Employee testimony and bodycams make it pretty f'ing clear that the dude was high. That's not misinformation. Not sure why you would try suggesting that. If you want to suggest it shouldn't matter if he was high, that's fine, but trying to suggest that he wasn't high seems a bit strange. It's reasonable to assume if the cashier at the Casey's General Store can tell from our limited interaction that I am high, then my state could be characterized as "visibly high."
                                                                            Did I suggest he wasn't high? I'm pushing back on your narrative that this guy was so damn high that he was a walking heart attack. You pulled the 4x the amount of an OD suspect from where exactly?

                                                                            Further, it sounds like the investigation found chewed up pills in the back of the squad car that Mr. Floyd probably spit up or out. Seems entirely possible that he was not at his peak intoxication while in the store, may have ingested them upon getting pulled over. Hell, they got the guy on video possibly saying something along the lines of "I ate too many drugs." On the other hand, he may have said "i aint doing any drugs" or something like that.
                                                                            So, the toxicology report shows a low-level amount of drugs in his system. Again, if we took your word for it that wasn't the case. So he was "visibly high" which is subjective and open to an incredible amount of personal interpretation but the science doesn't back up Floyd being all that high. With all the testimony so far from medical professionals I'm not sure how much wiggle room the defense has with this.

                                                                            "But your honor, Mr. Floyd was like, really, super high according to this one witness."

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                                                                            • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post



                                                                              Some angles look like kneeling on a neck. Other angles certainly look like a shoulder or back. Even witnesses had to admit that in cross-examination.
                                                                              Okay, great job by Chauvin.

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                                                                              • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                                Did I suggest he wasn't high? I'm pushing back on your narrative that this guy was so damn high that he was a walking heart attack. You pulled the 4x the amount of an OD suspect from where exactly?



                                                                                So, the toxicology report shows a low-level amount of drugs in his system. Again, if we took your word for it that wasn't the case. So he was "visibly high" which is subjective and open to an incredible amount of personal interpretation but the science doesn't back up Floyd being all that high. With all the testimony so far from medical professionals I'm not sure how much wiggle room the defense has with this.

                                                                                "But your honor, Mr. Floyd was like, really, super high according to this one witness."
                                                                                The medical examiner said he'd seen OD's at 3 ng. If Floyd had 11 ng, a reasonable mind could easily do some math and figure out he had nearly 4x the amount of documented overdoses in his system.

                                                                                We'll see how the defense goes about making their case. But I don't see why a jury couldn't conclude so far that a dude with a bad heart and a potentially fatal amount of drugs in his system died from the excitement surrounding an arrest.

                                                                                Could very well come to the opposite conclusion too. End of the day, won't have any impact on my life.
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                                                                                • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post
                                                                                  The medical examiner said he'd seen OD's at 3 ng. If Floyd had 11 ng, a reasonable mind could easily do some math and figure out he had nearly 4x the amount of documented overdoses in his system.
                                                                                  A lethal dose of fentanyl is typically around 2mg in most cases, Floyd had 0.011 mg in his system.

                                                                                  We'll see how the defense goes about making their case. But I don't see why a jury couldn't conclude so far that a dude with a bad heart and a potentially fatal amount of drugs in his system died from the excitement surrounding an arrest.
                                                                                  They would indeed conclude that if they read your comments but didn't listen to the professionals who have testified the exact opposite of your claims.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                  • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                                    A lethal dose of fentanyl is typically around 2mg in most cases, Floyd had 0.011 mg in his system.



                                                                                    They would indeed conclude that if they read your comments but didn't listen to the professionals who have testified the exact opposite of your claims.
                                                                                    That's something for them to consider too. Doesn't change that the medical examiner said he's seen 3 ng be enough to kill a person.

                                                                                    If the prosecution says "he kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes and this killed him", it makes sense that the defense will show that its not clear that happened.

                                                                                    If the prosecution says "he didn't OD, he died of oxygen deprivation (or whatever)", it makes sense for the defense to point out much smaller doses kill people in the same or similar way.

                                                                                    I'm also working off the assumption the defense will have their own experts. The phrase i read we'll probably hear a bunch of "excited delirium" or something like that. I think the concept is something like people who are high basically suffocate themselves after getting into some excited state. Something like that.
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                                                                                    • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                                      1. The medical examiner ruled it a homicide. Someone can OD on a dangerous drug from a miniscule amount. Normally, those people aren't walking around in a store.



                                                                                      2. Why wouldn't the cops get him medical help then?



                                                                                      3. Sooo, why wouldn't you get someone help in this situation??



                                                                                      4. Reasonable doubt about what? That we get to play pretend and act like Chauvin didn't kneel on a guy until he died?



                                                                                      5. I know this, that's why you're spreading the misinformation that Floyd was ludicrously high on drugs like that's a fine defense for Chauvin.


                                                                                      1. Maybe you have little knowledge about drugs but you dont have to OD from drugs as soon as you take them. It takes time. I took an edible gummy yesterday that took about 2 hours to kick in for example. Also between the time of Floyds incident with police he sat in the car for awhile after the store... testimony from his friend drug dealer would be great.

                                                                                      2. If you have ever worked in law enforcement people say stuff like this all the time... there was testimony from about every officer that admits this is common and rarely do they just stop everything (espeically when he was resisiting) to wait for medical. They have to make sure the scene is safe for medical.

                                                                                      3. Same as #2

                                                                                      4. The Coroner/Medical Examiner must be spreading misinformation as well about his health at the time

                                                                                      "Dr. Baker testified that Mr. Floyd’s narrowed arteries, hypertension and drug use likely made him more susceptible to dying as a result of being pinned to the ground by three police officers."

                                                                                      I think its ignorant to say police had zero role in his death. But it would also be ignorant to say drugs and/or health had zero role in his death. I think its obvious both played a role. But the question is to what extent?

                                                                                      One of the problems is if you isolate the incident and no death occured, is there a crime? While we could argue police tactics all day, if there is no death, at most the officer might be reprimanded with a write up or something and we never hear about it.

                                                                                      Murder involves intent. Its going to be hard to prove intent.

                                                                                      I think the only logical charge that will stick is 2nd degree manslaughter. I would be surprised with anything more.

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                                                                                      • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post

                                                                                        1. Maybe you have little knowledge about drugs but you dont have to OD from drugs as soon as you take them. It takes time. I took an edible gummy yesterday that took about 2 hours to kick in for example. Also between the time of Floyds incident with police he sat in the car for awhile after the store... testimony from his friend drug dealer would be great.

                                                                                        2. If you have ever worked in law enforcement people say stuff like this all the time... there was testimony from about every officer that admits this is common and rarely do they just stop everything (espeically when he was resisiting) to wait for medical. They have to make sure the scene is safe for medical.

                                                                                        3. Same as #2

                                                                                        4. The Coroner/Medical Examiner must be spreading misinformation as well about his health at the time

                                                                                        "Dr. Baker testified that Mr. Floyd’s narrowed arteries, hypertension and drug use likely made him more susceptible to dying as a result of being pinned to the ground by three police officers."

                                                                                        I think its ignorant to say police had zero role in his death. But it would also be ignorant to say drugs and/or health had zero role in his death. I think its obvious both played a role. But the question is to what extent?

                                                                                        One of the problems is if you isolate the incident and no death occured, is there a crime? While we could argue police tactics all day, if there is no death, at most the officer might be reprimanded with a write up or something and we never hear about it.

                                                                                        Murder involves intent. Its going to be hard to prove intent.

                                                                                        I think the only logical charge that will stick is 2nd degree manslaughter. I would be surprised with anything more.
                                                                                        I think the Murder #2 charge is for unintentional murder. I think they need to show he intended to use force in a certain manner and that force caused the death or something like that.

                                                                                        I'm not familiar with that concept, we didnt talk about it in school. But I think that may be the reason this "use of force" guy is testifying. He seems like a good guy.

                                                                                        Also, I'm not a big fan of this "spark of life" witness concept. Apparently most states don't allow calling those types of witnesses. I'm sorry but George Floyd being a fan of Tecmo Bowl back in the day has absolutely nothing to do with his death.

                                                                                        Also really enjoyed the medical examiner's testimony last week. Spoke in a way that was easy for average people to follow. Made it clear when certain things were outside his specialty. Seemed like a good guy. The cardiologist guy today seemed kinda patronizing, but I was able to follow what he was saying so maybe that was mission accomplished. Still don't like him lol.

                                                                                        Edit: oh shit another police killing in the Twin Cities. That's not great.
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                                                                                        • Originally posted by NorthDakota View Post

                                                                                          I think the Murder #2 charge is for unintentional murder. I think they need to show he intended to use force in a certain manner and that force caused the death or something like that.

                                                                                          I'm not familiar with that concept, we didnt talk about it in school. But I think that may be the reason this "use of force" guy is testifying. He seems like a good guy.

                                                                                          Also, I'm not a big fan of this "spark of life" witness concept. Apparently most states don't allow calling those types of witnesses. I'm sorry but George Floyd being a fan of Tecmo Bowl back in the day has absolutely nothing to do with his death.

                                                                                          Also really enjoyed the medical examiner's testimony last week. Spoke in a way that was easy for average people to follow. Made it clear when certain things were outside his specialty. Seemed like a good guy. The cardiologist guy today seemed kinda patronizing, but I was able to follow what he was saying so maybe that was mission accomplished. Still don't like him lol.

                                                                                          Edit: oh shit another police killing in the Twin Cities. That's not great.
                                                                                          They would need to prove he intented to commit some sort of felony. Intent is key here as well.

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                                                                                          • Just watched the recent video....

                                                                                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVH6q0ul72A

                                                                                            Apparently officer thought he was shooting his taser. What mess this will be.

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                                                                                            • Originally posted by Rocket89 View Post

                                                                                              See a doctor? Well, I'm not sure I love the way they treated him before Chauvin even arrived, but at least maybe don't kneel on his neck for almost 10 minutes eh?



                                                                                              I'm not sure we're watching the same trial, tbh.

                                                                                              So far, the defense has been absolutely hammered by medical professionals. The pulmonologist, medical examiner, toxicologist, forensic medicine physician, forensic pathologist, and senior ER resident all testified for death by asphyxiation. The paramedic said Floyd was dead when he arrived and was upset the police hadn't worked on him. The off-duty firefighter tried to help and was told to back away by police. The Minneapolis Police Dept medical coordinator testified the police should've given aid to Floyd and that Chauvin should know just because Floyd could speak doesn't mean he could breath properly.

                                                                                              Another cardiologist testified today that Floyd didn't die from a heart attack, nor from a drug overdose. Last week, a bunch of law enforcement testified that Chauvin did not follow training and his use of force was excessive.

                                                                                              Maybe things change when the defense gets their chance to call witnesses, but my goodness, this DRUGS and REASONABLE DOUBT talk so far looks like nothing but a right-wing blog fever dream.
                                                                                              The defense has highlighted their narrative relative to the prosecution. They haven't presented their witnesses yet. A right-wing blog fever dream? Wow. I don't pretend to have all the facts and am glad I am not on the jury, but I don't see this as the slam dunk that you do.
                                                                                              Running the damn ball since 2017.

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                                                                                              • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post
                                                                                                Just watched the recent video....

                                                                                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVH6q0ul72A

                                                                                                Apparently, the officer thought he was shooting his taser. What mess this will be.
                                                                                                The looting and rioting have already begun.


                                                                                                The media was trying to get the police chief in line with their preferred messaging and it didn't go over well.
                                                                                                Running the damn ball since 2017.

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                                                                                                • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

                                                                                                  The looting and rioting have already begun.


                                                                                                  The media was trying to get the police chief in line with their preferred messaging and it didn't go over well.
                                                                                                  Geeze... I just saw all that too. MN is a ticking time bomb.

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                                                                                                  • Originally posted by drayer54 View Post

                                                                                                    The defense has highlighted their narrative relative to the prosecution. They haven't presented their witnesses yet. A right-wing blog fever dream? Wow. I don't pretend to have all the facts and am glad I am not on the jury, but I don't see this as the slam dunk that you do.
                                                                                                    I dont think the media has done a good job covering things so far.

                                                                                                    Judge says defense should start sometime tomorrow. Really interested to see what they do, and what experts they bring in, how credible they are, etc. Lawyer seems like a gomer but it looks like he has a pretty good track record.

                                                                                                    But holy shit Minneapolis gonna pop off here pretty quick with or without a guilty verdict.
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                                                                                                    • Originally posted by Blazers46 View Post
                                                                                                      1. Maybe you have little knowledge about drugs but you dont have to OD from drugs as soon as you take them. It takes time. I took an edible gummy yesterday that took about 2 hours to kick in for example. Also between the time of Floyds incident with police he sat in the car for awhile after the store... testimony from his friend drug dealer would be great.
                                                                                                      If the toxicology report was far, far, far worse and a single medical professional considered OD in this case then your line of questioning would be important. But, it's not. The evidence in this case doesn't support this line of argument which is why people have resorted to blowing Floyd's drug use at the time of death way out of proportion and leaning on hypotheticals that are extremely flimsy and difficult to defend.

                                                                                                      2. If you have ever worked in law enforcement people say stuff like this all the time... there was testimony from about every officer that admits this is common and rarely do they just stop everything (espeically when he was resisiting) to wait for medical. They have to make sure the scene is safe for medical.
                                                                                                      Did anything about the situation w/r/t Floyd seem unsafe? It's almost like you're typing out how Chauvin completely overreacted.

                                                                                                      4. The Coroner/Medical Examiner must be spreading misinformation as well about his health at the time

                                                                                                      "Dr. Baker testified that Mr. Floyd’s narrowed arteries, hypertension and drug use likely made him more susceptible to dying as a result of being pinned to the ground by three police officers."

                                                                                                      I think its ignorant to say police had zero role in his death. But it would also be ignorant to say drugs and/or health had zero role in his death. I think its obvious both played a role. But the question is to what extent?
                                                                                                      No, the medical examiner is providing context to the situation as he should. He also ruled homicide.

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