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  • What has been done over the last 18 months to increase the capacity of the health care system to manage spikes in cases? Seems they have reduced capacity more than anything by driving out workers who refuse the vaccine.

    Still very little discussion of early treatment protocols beyond - get rest, hydrate and come back when we can shove you in a hospital.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post
      What has been done over the last 18 months to increase the capacity of the health care system to manage spikes in cases? Seems they have reduced capacity more than anything by driving out workers who refuse the vaccine.

      Still very little discussion of early treatment protocols beyond - get rest, hydrate and come back when we can shove you in a hospital.
      In the short term there's not a ton you can do. The hospital business model is based on running as close to 100% capacity as much as possible. COVID is awful for business because when mitigation goes really well you have below average numbers (other viruses gone) and subpar revenue. When covid is exploding you have the inability to do procedures (loss of revenue) and burnout. We also have more people vulnerable to the viruses the lockdowns squelched, so normal viral season will be worse.

      We need reform of our fee for service system in the long run so that elective surgeries don't drive hospital revenue and that hospitals can get funding to keep enough staff for rainy days.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

        In the short term there's not a ton you can do. The hospital business model is based on running as close to 100% capacity as much as possible. COVID is awful for business because when mitigation goes really well you have below average numbers (other viruses gone) and subpar revenue. When covid is exploding you have the inability to do procedures (loss of revenue) and burnout. We also have more people vulnerable to the viruses the lockdowns squelched, so normal viral season will be worse.

        We need reform of our fee for service system in the long run so that elective surgeries don't drive hospital revenue and that hospitals can get funding to keep enough staff for rainy days.
        I see a lot of near retirement and second income folks pulling the plug and staying home. If you don't HAVE to work, why put up with the increased demands of PPE and mandates from above. That includes vaccinated folks who find the demands insulting and have never seen a fully staffed unit in their career. Step away now before it becomes a real fiasco. Not to mention demands at home with kids home schooling or trying to keep parents out of a care facility.

        Also why I am adamantly against shutting down any sector of the economy - surgery shut down last year and never recovered to pre-shutdown capacity. That bleeds through the entire healthcare system b/c surgery pays the bills. You can't just flip a switch to turn this stuff off and on.

        A lot of self fulfilling prophesy going on in health care admin, IMO. Rather than expand capacity, lets work to reduce it to save money. I have always thought hospitals should have more extensive supplemental staff - why not have more part time workers so you can dial up or down more easily. My wife had to start full time and took years to migrate to a part time and then supplemental position. Now she is pretty much full time due to staffing shortages and her inability to say "no".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

          I see a lot of near retirement and second income folks pulling the plug and staying home. If you don't HAVE to work, why put up with the increased demands of PPE and mandates from above. That includes vaccinated folks who find the demands insulting and have never seen a fully staffed unit in their career. Step away now before it becomes a real fiasco. Not to mention demands at home with kids home schooling or trying to keep parents out of a care facility.

          Also why I am adamantly against shutting down any sector of the economy - surgery shut down last year and never recovered to pre-shutdown capacity. That bleeds through the entire healthcare system b/c surgery pays the bills. You can't just flip a switch to turn this stuff off and on.

          A lot of self fulfilling prophesy going on in health care admin, IMO. Rather than expand capacity, lets work to reduce it to save money. I have always thought hospitals should have more extensive supplemental staff - why not have more part time workers so you can dial up or down more easily. My wife had to start full time and took years to migrate to a part time and then supplemental position. Now she is pretty much full time due to staffing shortages and her inability to say "no".
          Hospitals mandate flu shots yearly. The people I know who are quitting or getting out of the ICU are burned out by the last 18 months and especially our current entirely preventable wave of the pandemic. In terms of elective shutdowns, outside of the fog of the 1st wave they've been driven by capacity constraints. You can't do a bunch of procedures requiring post procedure hospital stays if there are no beds.

          Honestly as an ICU doc I know 0 nurses or doctors who aren't pro mandate. The anti mandate people tend to be less educated members of the hospital staff or nurses who don't care for covid patients. F antivaxxers is a pretty frequent thing you hear in the break rooms or on the floor.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

            We're doing medicine. Throwing quack home remedies at people that haven't been validated is the definition of homeopathy.
            I am not suggesting doctors and nurses are not "doing medicine." What I am suggesting is that the higher ups in medicine/pharma seem to have an aversion to a clear early treatment protocol for treating COVID-19. My issue is not with the vast majority of boots on ground in the medical field. But those who are giving them their directives. After 18 months why is it that we cannot say with any clarity "if a person get's COVID here is our early treatment protocol"?

            Doctor prescribed early treatment protocols are not "quack home remedies." And there are doctors treating people with consistent and effective early treatment protocols, but they seem to have to "buck the system" of group think (which clearly is not working) in order to practice medicine in a way that is effective.

            Once again, what was the common early treatment protocol for diagnosed COVID patients in you practice/system? Not once a patient is in trouble and has to come into the hospital for care. But once they are diagnosed. "Doctor, I've have been diagnosed with a positive case of COVID-19." And the doctors says okay sir, madam here is what we are going to do to treat you "________________."

            Unless I am mistaken, the last time I asked this question it seemed as though all you were sharing were a couple of steps that were taken when people are in trouble, and the rest was insider privileged info. If my suggestions of solid early treatment protocol options from medical professionals are "quack home remedies", then what would you or your hospital system tell a person who just contracted COVID?
            When God does the big things, the little people get drawn in too. Human systems often forget that, but God doesn’t.- N.T. Wright "from "Simply Jesus"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bobbyok1 View Post

              I am not suggesting doctors and nurses are not "doing medicine." What I am suggesting is that the higher ups in medicine/pharma seem to have an aversion to a clear early treatment protocol for treating COVID-19. My issue is not with the vast majority of boots on ground in the medical field. But those who are giving them their directives. After 18 months why is it that we cannot say with any clarity "if a person get's COVID here is our early treatment protocol"?

              Doctor prescribed early treatment protocols are not "quack home remedies." And there are doctors treating people with consistent and effective early treatment protocols, but they seem to have to "buck the system" of group think (which clearly is not working) in order to practice medicine in a way that is effective.

              Once again, what was the common early treatment protocol for diagnosed COVID patients in you practice/system? Not once a patient is in trouble and has to come into the hospital for care. But once they are diagnosed. "Doctor, I've have been diagnosed with a positive case of COVID-19." And the doctors says okay sir, madam here is what we are going to do to treat you "________________."

              Unless I am mistaken, the last time I asked this question it seemed as though all you were sharing were a couple of steps that were taken when people are in trouble, and the rest was insider privileged info. If my suggestions of solid early treatment protocol options from medical professionals are "quack home remedies", then what would you or your hospital system tell a person who just contracted COVID?
              If they are judged high risk they get MABs. Early in hospitalization they get remdesivir. If hypoxemic they get steroids. They can also opt into randomized controlled trials. If I heard a hospital was doling out vitamins and ivermectin/HCQ I'd assumed it's staffed with quacks.
              Last edited by PerthDomer; 09-13-2021, 02:29 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                If they are judged high risk they get MABs. Early in hospitalization they get remdesivir. If hypoxemic they get steroids. They can also opt into randomized controlled trials. If I heard a hospital was doling out vitamins and ivermectin/HCQ I'd assumed it's staffed with quacks.
                The MAB's and steroids are part of early treatment protocols for many of the doctors involved in the studies I've cited above. The viewpoint I shared earlier on Ivermectin/Zinc/Azithromycin was not an exclusive method, as is shown in those studies. That combination was included as part of a 4 phase treatment process ranging from early treatment (once diagnosed) to late treatment (hospitalization and serious complications) most notably being promoted by a non-quack doctor, Dr Peter McCollough (yes I know there are already smear articles on the guy who was about as highly touted as they come in the medical field UNTIL he opposed the group think of big pharma/CDC). I am sure he will continue to be a labeled quack, as is anyone who dares go against group think, as ineffective as it has been.

                So, we'll probably not see eye to eye on this. Glad to hear your practice isn't sending high risk people home to suffer it out until they get can't breath.
                When God does the big things, the little people get drawn in too. Human systems often forget that, but God doesn’t.- N.T. Wright "from "Simply Jesus"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bobbyok1 View Post

                  The MAB's and steroids are part of early treatment protocols for many of the doctors involved in the studies I've cited above. The viewpoint I shared earlier on Ivermectin/Zinc/Azithromycin was not an exclusive method, as is shown in those studies. That combination was included as part of a 4 phase treatment process ranging from early treatment (once diagnosed) to late treatment (hospitalization and serious complications) most notably being promoted by a non-quack doctor, Dr Peter McCollough (yes I know there are already smear articles on the guy who was about as highly touted as they come in the medical field UNTIL he opposed the group think of big pharma/CDC). I am sure he will continue to be a labeled quack, as is anyone who dares go against group think, as ineffective as it has been.

                  So, we'll probably not see eye to eye on this. Glad to hear your practice isn't sending high risk people home to suffer it out until they get can't breath.
                  Doctors want to help, and frequently in our history we've done things that have been counterproductive. A mentor of mine once told me "Don't just do something, stand there". Basically if you overtreat and course correct too much you can undermine your management and worsen outcomes. This is a disease with about a 10% mortality for admitted patients. Probably about a 10% rate of admission for positive patients. Anything you tey to do to help the 10% can kill the 90%. This is why you need rigorous trials so you can make sure to DO NO HARM. Early on many doctors gave anticoagulants to all patients. Now we know in non ICU patients that probably increased mortality. We did HCQ without evidence. No positive impacts and some signs of harm. We need to make science based decisions and just doing something to do it without real numbers is BAD.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                    Hospitals mandate flu shots yearly. The people I know who are quitting or getting out of the ICU are burned out by the last 18 months and especially our current entirely preventable wave of the pandemic. In terms of elective shutdowns, outside of the fog of the 1st wave they've been driven by capacity constraints. You can't do a bunch of procedures requiring post procedure hospital stays if there are no beds.

                    Honestly as an ICU doc I know 0 nurses or doctors who aren't pro mandate. The anti mandate people tend to be less educated members of the hospital staff or nurses who don't care for covid patients. F antivaxxers is a pretty frequent thing you hear in the break rooms or on the floor.
                    So in 18 months and trillions of dollars - nothing could be done to increase capacity? And driving people out of the hospital workforce somehow helps the cause?

                    I'm with Bobby OK - as a healthcare consumer, early treatment protocols are trash. All the focus is on detection and treating people in the hospital. Can't even get a clean response for what to do from point A (test positive) to point B (admitted to hospital). Conflating a flu vaccine with decades of history behind it to these rushed to market Covid vaccines that use new technology doesn't instill confidence either.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                      Doctors want to help, and frequently in our history we've done things that have been counterproductive. A mentor of mine once told me "Don't just do something, stand there". Basically if you overtreat and course correct too much you can undermine your management and worsen outcomes. This is a disease with about a 10% mortality for admitted patients. Probably about a 10% rate of admission for positive patients. Anything you tey to do to help the 10% can kill the 90%. This is why you need rigorous trials so you can make sure to DO NO HARM. Early on many doctors gave anticoagulants to all patients. Now we know in non ICU patients that probably increased mortality. We did HCQ without evidence. No positive impacts and some signs of harm. We need to make science based decisions and just doing something to do it without real numbers is BAD.
                      Which is why young, healthy folks are totally valid in waiting for more data before getting vaccinated. Why take an action if no action has statistically zero chance of harm? First and foremost a person should have the right not to harm themselves.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                        Which is why young, healthy folks are totally valid in waiting for more data before getting vaccinated. Why take an action if no action has statistically zero chance of harm? First and foremost a person should have the right not to harm themselves.
                        The vaccines have more evidence than any prior approved vaccine. We had our 1st dead healthy teen last month in Seattle. This kills and maims the old and young alike with mortality being higher in everyone over the age of 4 than the seasonal flu.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                          If they are judged high risk they get MABs. Early in hospitalization they get remdesivir. If hypoxemic they get steroids. They can also opt into randomized controlled trials. If I heard a hospital was doling out vitamins and ivermectin/HCQ I'd assumed it's staffed with quacks.
                          This is what I don't understand. Many in the medical industry knock the treatment of doctors who recommend hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. Remdesivir had never met approval for use prior to covid and even had trials stopped because it was deemed toxic in previous studies. Gilead even stated it will not save one life that would not have already survived the virus. Steroids do not stop the virus and actually suppress the immune system. It is amazing to me our standard of care has not changed during the course of the pandemic.

                          The only real cure/treatment we had was Leronlimab which showed 82% (5 times the placebo group) survival rate in its phase 3 covid severe/critical study, but the FDA had the shots stopped before the midway point of the trial.

                          The video that Razor posted of the Dr. Malone interview that was the most amazing thing that came out of it was the doctor's reaction when Leronlimab was mentioned and what had occurred in the trial.

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                          • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                            Hospitals mandate flu shots yearly. The people I know who are quitting or getting out of the ICU are burned out by the last 18 months and especially our current entirely preventable wave of the pandemic. In terms of elective shutdowns, outside of the fog of the 1st wave they've been driven by capacity constraints. You can't do a bunch of procedures requiring post procedure hospital stays if there are no beds.

                            Honestly as an ICU doc I know 0 nurses or doctors who aren't pro mandate. The anti mandate people tend to be less educated members of the hospital staff or nurses who don't care for covid patients. F antivaxxers is a pretty frequent thing you hear in the break rooms or on the floor.
                            My wife is a nurse and her experience is different. A lot of her of colleagues are opposed to the mandate but it's not a very fashionable opinion to have so conversation on the topic is limited.

                            Comment


                            • Imagine a world where mechanics tell ballerinas they are dancing wrong. Incredible.

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                              • Originally posted by Wild Bill View Post

                                My wife is a nurse and her experience is different. A lot of her of colleagues are opposed to the mandate but it's not a very fashionable opinion to have so conversation on the topic is limited.
                                What unit does your wife work in?

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                                • Originally posted by phork View Post
                                  Imagine a world where mechanics tell ballerinas they are dancing wrong. Incredible.
                                  Maybe the mechanic has a younger sister who is a ballerina and he has enough exposure to that world that he can identify flaws on how ballerinas are dancing that he can tell that they are dancing wrong. Conversely, his ballerina sister can tell when a shady mechanic is trying to rip her off thanks to the knowledge she gleaned rebuilding car engines with her big brother growing up. Sounds like a good world to me where people have a diversity of knowledge and interests and have the freedom to express those opinions without getting told to shut up and stay in your lane.

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                                  • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                                    What unit does your wife work in?
                                    Transplant.

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                                    • Originally posted by Wild Bill View Post

                                      Transplant.
                                      That's a place where an unvaccinated nurse could quite literally kill their patient.

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                                      • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                        So in 18 months and trillions of dollars - nothing could be done to increase capacity? And driving people out of the hospital workforce somehow helps the cause?
                                        Can’t speak for other hospitals but the one my wife is an RN at did expand capacity w/ government funds. They’re one of the few that isn’t having issues w/ bed shortages. Why more hospitals didn’t take advantage of this is a mystery to me.

                                        She also continually tells me that the average person doesn’t realize how bad it is. She echoes what most of us hear which is the the majority of patients that are in the ICU are unvaccinated & in poor health to begin with. She has to put peg tubes in a lot of them so she’s seeing it up close & personal. To be blunt, she told me most look like they’re already dead.

                                        Additionally, she participated in an MAB trial which commenced almost immediately after the pandemic started. She had no issues w/ the treatment (and was later confirmed to be in the active treatment arm) but was encouraged to get the vax after so many months b/c they didn’t know the length of protection the MAB provided. She knew the vax would kick her ass due to some autoimmune issues and it did but she’s protected which her & her peers need considering how exposed they are to COVID patients.

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                                        • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                                          That's a place where an unvaccinated nurse could quite literally kill their patient.
                                          You are more concerned than the hospital - they perform transplants on covid postiive patients and they have covid patients on the same floor as transplant patients, so she routinely provides care for both covid and transplant patients on the same shift.

                                          It's one of the leading transplant hospitals in the nation and she works with some brilliant doctors. I assume they know what they're doing but I'm merely a mechanic who isn't going to tell the ballerinas how to dance.

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                                            The vaccines have more evidence than any prior approved vaccine. We had our 1st dead healthy teen last month in Seattle. This kills and maims the old and young alike with mortality being higher in everyone over the age of 4 than the seasonal flu.
                                            Suicide and drug overdoses are up dramatically more than one teen per month, not to mention the non-lethal addiction and abuse increases. Nobody cares about the collateral damage though.
                                            Last edited by RDU Irish; 09-14-2021, 04:24 PM.

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                              Suicide and drug overdoses are up dramatically more than one teen per month, not to mention the non-lethal addition and abuse increases. Nobody cares about the collateral damage though.
                                              So get everyone vaccinated and end the pandemic. I'd also note the secular trend was increasing teen mental health and suicides before the pandemic. This may continue to worsen after pandemic resolution for other reasons.

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by Wild Bill View Post

                                                You are more concerned than the hospital - they perform transplants on covid postiive patients and they have covid patients on the same floor as transplant patients, so she routinely provides care for both covid and transplant patients on the same shift.

                                                It's one of the leading transplant hospitals in the nation and she works with some brilliant doctors. I assume they know what they're doing but I'm merely a mechanic who isn't going to tell the ballerinas how to dance.
                                                I'd be far more worried about a provider or nurse shedding virus and getting a patient sick than another patient. You don't put an active covid patient in a room with a non covid patient.

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                                                • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                  Suicide and drug overdoses are up dramatically more than one teen per month, not to mention the non-lethal addition and abuse increases. Nobody cares about the collateral damage though.
                                                  I've been assured repeatedly that as long as you don't die from something it is apparently not a big deal. I've been assured of this.

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                                                  • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                    Which is why young, healthy folks are totally valid in waiting for more data before getting vaccinated. Why take an action if no action has statistically zero chance of harm? First and foremost a person should have the right not to harm themselves.
                                                    So wait, you're saying COVID does less harm to young, healthy folks than the vaccine? Am I understanding you correctly?

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                                                    • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post

                                                      I'd be far more worried about a provider or nurse shedding virus and getting a patient sick than another patient. You don't put an active covid patient in a room with a non covid patient.
                                                      Yes but you can carry the virus whether you're vaccinated or not, correct? If that's the case, it seems odd that nurses would be treating covid patients and transplant patients simulataneously. As you mentioned, they could quite literally kill their patient.

                                                      Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                      So wait, you're saying COVID does less harm to young, healthy folks than the vaccine? Am I understanding you correctly?
                                                      I think he's saying waiting for more data may be in their best interest.

                                                      We have to trust the science.
                                                      Last edited by Wild Bill ; 09-14-2021, 07:42 PM.

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                                                      • Originally posted by Wild Bill View Post



                                                        I think he's saying waiting for more data may be in their best interest.

                                                        We have to trust the science.
                                                        Really, how so? COVID is worse, you know, scientifically. So those are the two options; even if someone happens to be a young, non-socializing person. You will get it and you are betting contracting it is better than vaccinating against it. Is there a 3rd door I'm unaware of?

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                                                        • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                          Really, how so? COVID is worse, you know, scientifically. So those are the two options; even if someone happens to be a young, non-socializing person. You will get it and you are betting contracting it is better than vaccinating against it. Is there a 3rd door I'm unaware of?
                                                          More data. It's right there in his post.

                                                          Trust the science.

                                                          Comment


                                                          • Originally posted by Wild Bill View Post

                                                            Yes but you can carry the virus whether you're vaccinated or not, correct? If that's the case, it seems odd that nurses would be treating covid patients and transplant patients simulataneously. As you mentioned, they could quite literally kill their patient.



                                                            I think he's saying waiting for more data may be in their best interest.

                                                            We have to trust the science.
                                                            We had the data to show the vaccine was better than the disease for teens and 20 something months ago. The risk benefit isn't even close. Those vaccinated can get infected but they have good protection vs that. They also shed virus for a much shorter period of time. The difference in spread for vaccinated and nonvaccinated is large than the reduction mask wearing confers.

                                                            Comment


                                                            • Here is a study published in Nature on the safety and immune response to Moderna boosters. This is a fairly limited study given the design and sample size, but can serve as an initial indication of safety as it relates to boosters.

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                                                              • Originally posted by Trait Expectations View Post

                                                                So wait, you're saying COVID does less harm to young, healthy folks than the vaccine? Am I understanding you correctly?
                                                                I am saying we don't know yet. We DO know the risk to healthy youngsters is miniscule so the bar is much higher for the vaccine than the 90 year old COPD crowd. Specifically, kids.

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                                                                • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                                  I am saying we don't know yet. We DO know the risk to healthy youngsters is miniscule so the bar is much higher for the vaccine than the 90 year old COPD crowd. Specifically, kids.
                                                                  Your position is that - from the data of infected people there's enough data to make a determination on long term effects, but for a vaccine there isn't enough data?

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                                                                  • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                    Your position is that - from the data of infected people there's enough data to make a determination on long term effects, but for a vaccine there isn't enough data?
                                                                    The armchair scientists crack me up.

                                                                    90% of medical shit goes over my head so I just text my buddy from Mayo who is an anesthesia doctor. He said get the shot so I did lmaooo
                                                                    Based Mullet Kid owns

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                                                                    • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                      Your position is that - from the data of infected people there's enough data to make a determination on long term effects, but for a vaccine there isn't enough data?
                                                                      "I am saying we don't know yet." In regards to long term issues with either. The vax has a one year shorter evaluation period than the virus FFS. I don't consider two years to be "long term" and I don't consider 12 to be the same as 22 from a physical development standpoint. I also don't think taking your chances with Covid is unreasonable for people contemplating getting pregnant now or in the near future. If I am 300 pounds at any of those ages or situations I am getting the shot though.

                                                                      Are you denying that risk decreases with age or that co-morbidities substantially increase risk? Those seem to be known issues at this point.

                                                                      Seriously some folks won't be happy until everyone is scared shitless of this thing. Make your choices and move on with your lives already.

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                                                                      • As I have said earlier in this tread, covid is endemic. You will come in contact with the virus at some point. The facts support the risks associated with the vaccine are minuscule compared to the risks associated with the virus. Arguing we don’t know all the risks associated with virus or vaccine ignores this fact

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                                                                        • Originally posted by Valpodoc85 View Post
                                                                          As I have said earlier in this tread, covid is endemic. You will come in contact with the virus at some point. The facts support the risks associated with the vaccine are minuscule compared to the risks associated with the virus. Arguing we don’t know all the risks associated with virus or vaccine ignores this fact
                                                                          Inability to admit risk is not uniform depreciates your valid point.

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                                                                          • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                                            "I am saying we don't know yet." In regards to long term issues with either. The vax has a one year shorter evaluation period than the virus FFS. I don't consider two years to be "long term" and I don't consider 12 to be the same as 22 from a physical development standpoint. I also don't think taking your chances with Covid is unreasonable for people contemplating getting pregnant now or in the near future. If I am 300 pounds at any of those ages or situations I am getting the shot though.

                                                                            Are you denying that risk decreases with age or that co-morbidities substantially increase risk? Those seem to be known issues at this point.

                                                                            Seriously some folks won't be happy until everyone is scared shitless of this thing. Make your choices and move on with your lives already.
                                                                            Which vaccines have shown to have negative long term side effects? What data is there that supports the stance of not vaccinating a child?

                                                                            At what point is there enough data for you to be comfortable with a vaccine?

                                                                            Where did I say anything that denies risk? Show me.

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                                                                            • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                              Which vaccines have shown to have negative long term side effects? What data is there that supports the stance of not vaccinating a child?

                                                                              At what point is there enough data for you to be comfortable with a vaccine?

                                                                              Where did I say anything that denies risk? Show me.
                                                                              You see - when I clarify my position and ask you to clarify yours you get defensive rather than every answering a clear and direct question. You think admitting something will discredit you where reality is - your inability to admit the obvious completely discredits you.

                                                                              Are you denying that risk decreases with age or that co-morbidities substantially increase risk?

                                                                              I'll wait.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                              • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                                                You see - when I clarify my position and ask you to clarify yours you get defensive rather than every answering a clear and direct question. You think admitting something will discredit you where reality is - your inability to admit the obvious completely discredits you.

                                                                                Are you denying that risk decreases with age or that co-morbidities substantially increase risk?

                                                                                I'll wait.
                                                                                I never disagreed with you on risk increases with age or that co-morbs increase risk. That's obvious. Can't believe I have to type that out, but here we are.

                                                                                So, now that I did 2+2:

                                                                                Which vaccines have shown to have negative long term side effects? What data is there that supports the stance of not vaccinating a child?

                                                                                At what point is there enough data for you to be comfortable with a vaccine?

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                                                                                • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                  I never disagreed with you on risk increases with age or that co-morbs increase risk. That's obvious. Can't believe I have to type that out, but here we are.

                                                                                  So, now that I did 2+2:

                                                                                  Which vaccines have shown to have negative long term side effects? What data is there that supports the stance of not vaccinating a child?

                                                                                  At what point is there enough data for you to be comfortable with a vaccine?
                                                                                  Fda approval and eliminating the blanket immunity the feds gave pharmaceutical companies is a good start.

                                                                                  It's hard to believe the level of trust the public still has in pharmaceutical companies given their history. Never underestimate good propaganda

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                                                                                  • If I had a kid in elementary school, no way would I be vaccinating them if/when they become available. Almost zero risk.

                                                                                    Yes I understand that there are currently no vaccines that have been demonstrated to have negative long term side effects, but the bottom line is it hasn't been around long enough to really know for sure and certainly hasn't been for children.

                                                                                    Would have to be approaching 5 years of history for me to make that leap given the minute amount of risk. If the risk shows to increase substantially, then my view would be altered.

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                                                                                    • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                                                      Inability to admit risk is not uniform depreciates your valid point.
                                                                                      Is this what you are saying? "See, by you not admitting there is risk on your side you prove your argument is insufficient".

                                                                                      Risk AntiVaxx >>> Risk Vaxx ; this is evaluated across all possible permutations of age, demographic, comorbidities and any other stupid factor you want to add for consideration.

                                                                                      Does that fucking compute?

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                                                                                      • Originally posted by Wild Bill View Post

                                                                                        More data. It's right there in his post.

                                                                                        Trust the science.
                                                                                        You keep using that phrase...

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                                                                                        • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                          I never disagreed with you on risk increases with age or that co-morbs increase risk. That's obvious. Can't believe I have to type that out, but here we are.

                                                                                          So, now that I did 2+2:

                                                                                          Which vaccines have shown to have negative long term side effects? What data is there that supports the stance of not vaccinating a child?

                                                                                          At what point is there enough data for you to be comfortable with a vaccine?
                                                                                          LOL - so petulant. Not disagreeing is not the same as agreeing. You can never concede anything to your opposition. Really impressive - even more impressive that you think it builds credibility.

                                                                                          I have natural immunity and I am comfortable with my level of immunity being adequate - my immunity is superior to the vaccine, why is my vaccination non-negotiable? I have little concern about my children being exposed to covid and see no reason to take action. They have probably had it and shook it off like any other virus. We will all get flu shots. I am more compelled to track down a shingles vax for myself than a covid jab.

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                                                                                          • My friend's daughter was involved in a serious motorcycle accident (driver killed on impact) 12 days ago. It happened at approximately 10:00 p.m. She was in a coma and in critical condition. He was notified about an hour after the accident. He was unable to be with her due to Covid protocols. After almost 20 hours and confirmed negative tests, he and his wife were finally allowed to visit their daughter.

                                                                                            This past Monday they were able to remove the breathing tube. She smiled at him and was trying to process what had happened. The extent of her injuries is still undetermined. Within minutes it was released that the Calgary hospital was undergoing a Covid shutdown due to a number of cases on her floor.

                                                                                            My friend and his wife were told they would have to leave and it would likely be at least three or four days before they would be granted permission to access. Shitty, but fair enough.

                                                                                            As they walked out of the hospital, tears in their eyes, they were met by a large group of anti-mask/anti-vax protesters at the entrance.

                                                                                            Can you imagine?

                                                                                            Be safe and be respectful.

                                                                                            Cheers and Go Irish!!

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                                                                                            • Originally posted by RDU Irish View Post

                                                                                              LOL - so petulant. Not disagreeing is not the same as agreeing. You can never concede anything to your opposition. Really impressive - even more impressive that you think it builds credibility.

                                                                                              I have natural immunity and I am comfortable with my level of immunity being adequate - my immunity is superior to the vaccine, why is my vaccination non-negotiable? I have little concern about my children being exposed to covid and see no reason to take action. They have probably had it and shook it off like any other virus. We will all get flu shots. I am more compelled to track down a shingles vax for myself than a covid jab.
                                                                                              Curious to see if those that admonish my tone, will do something similar here? Or that's only saved for me lol guess we'll see!

                                                                                              I'm glad you have some form of immunity and are willing to get other vaccines.

                                                                                              Essentially what I'm gathering is you/Bill/Miller have determined that a COVID vaccine for a child poses more risk than contracting it?

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                                                                                              • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post

                                                                                                Curious to see if those that admonish my tone, will do something similar here? Or that's only saved for me lol guess we'll see!

                                                                                                I'm glad you have some form of immunity and are willing to get other vaccines.

                                                                                                Essentially what I'm gathering is you/Bill/Miller have determined that a COVID vaccine for a child poses more risk than contracting it?
                                                                                                For elementary age kids with no comorbidities, yes.

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                                                                                                • Originally posted by ab2cmiller View Post

                                                                                                  For elementary age kids with no comorbidities, yes.
                                                                                                  We don't have studies on elementary aged kids. We do for middle schoolers and it's clear risk of disease > risk of vaccine.

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                                                                                                  • Originally posted by ab2cmiller View Post
                                                                                                    If I had a kid in elementary school, no way would I be vaccinating them if/when they become available. Almost zero risk.

                                                                                                    Yes I understand that there are currently no vaccines that have been demonstrated to have negative long term side effects, but the bottom line is it hasn't been around long enough to really know for sure and certainly hasn't been for children.

                                                                                                    Would have to be approaching 5 years of history for me to make that leap given the minute amount of risk. If the risk shows to increase substantially, then my view would be altered.
                                                                                                    I've mentioned before that I got the vaccines, but this is spot on. It's only been a year and a half. Hard to tell what the effects will be. Could be nil, or could be some long term side effects. Is five years long enough? I have no idea, but it's better than 1 1/2 years.

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                                                                                                    • Interesting article by UAB

                                                                                                      https://www.uab.edu/reporter/resourc...things-to-know

                                                                                                      Essentially shows why there isn't a long term risk, as it would present it's self within the first few weeks. As well, the science behind mrna is designed to degrade quickly.

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