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  • Originally posted by yankeehater View Post
    For example, placing a covid patient in a prone position with heavy nasal air flow upon arrival in ER has been known to make a difference since reports back in April I believe out of maybe Argentina yet I still don't see this widely employed.
    I have two friends that have been ICU nurses, one since before the pandemic and have been doing strictly COVID patients since March, one in Queens one in New Orleans. They've been doing the prone positioning since the first couple of weeks. Back in March/April they were losing multiple patients per shift, not all of which were old and infirm.
    "Yes, they deserved to die and I hope they burn in hell!"
    --Samuel L

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rtrn2glory View Post
      State of Ohio taking away paid leave for individuals who test positive or have to quarantine. That's going to make it more likely that individuals come to work whether they're sick or not.
      no kidding? I haven't heard this yet. Can Dewine be anymore confusing? wtf

      Comment


      • Prone positioning is something we've been using for ARDS (BA lung disease) for years. Putting someone prone provides transient O2 improvement. If your patient is prone and crashes without a breathing tube you have to flip them around to their back to put one in at which point their O2 gets lower. The maxim is you want to avoid intubating people if you can get away with it but if you wait too long you may be killing them (the 41 yo GOP rep died in intubation, hard to say if this is why). Suffice to say management decisions are complicated and there's no silver bullet besides vaccines.

        They've also found viral load strongly correlates to clinical deterioration and are using levels here to help decide who to admit/send straight to the icu in addition to other clinical scores. Doctors dont ignore obvious solutions generally. This disease is just really really hard.
        Last edited by PerthDomer; 01-08-2021, 03:38 PM.

        Comment


        • FWIW: I have just been informed that our entire retirement community (all oldsters) will be vaccinated in-house during the day of January 15th. Sore arms or not, we are looking forward to this --- this is about 120-140 people. Admin and workers will also get the vaccine adding to that number.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
            FWIW: I have just been informed that our entire retirement community (all oldsters) will be vaccinated in-house during the day of January 15th. Sore arms or not, we are looking forward to this --- this is about 120-140 people. Admin and workers will also get the vaccine adding to that number.

            Great news! Prayers that all goes smoothly. God bless you all.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
              FWIW: I have just been informed that our entire retirement community (all oldsters) will be vaccinated in-house during the day of January 15th. Sore arms or not, we are looking forward to this --- this is about 120-140 people. Admin and workers will also get the vaccine adding to that number.
              Lit af! Great news old guy.
              Based Mullet Kid owns

              Comment


              • Well I'll find out in a few days if I have Covid failed my employers health screening today with a few symptoms so had to get tested, and put on LOA

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
                  FWIW: I have just been informed that our entire retirement community (all oldsters) will be vaccinated in-house during the day of January 15th. Sore arms or not, we are looking forward to this --- this is about 120-140 people. Admin and workers will also get the vaccine adding to that number.
                  Awesome news, Mike!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by yankeehater View Post
                    Can someone in the medical industry please explain this for me? I heard on the radio about this today that there are no flu cases this year. He is an article from yesterday. CDC reporting only 1000 flu cases versus 38 million last year. If you look at the CDC map for flu, everything is green. The map for Covid is red everywhere. This is how conspiracies start. I posted the story about my neighbors who returned from Hawaii and become very ill and were told it was Covid even though no tests were ever positive. They never were given a test for the flu.

                    https://www.charlotteobserver.com/ne...248307290.html
                    Flu is way down. Most likely because everyone is wearing masks and distancing. We had Flu cases back in September/October, but those numbers dropped. Don't fall for conspiracies, there are simple mechanics behind lowering the spread.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BleedBlueGold View Post
                      I don't think you've provided a single beneficial post to this board since arriving.
                      That's Circa, right?

                      Comment


                      • In normal times in ICUs, airborne precautions are instituted in a negative pressure room with an anteroom in which caregivers mask with a n95, gown, glove, hat, booties, etc so that no part of one's clothes is exposed. (Most ICUs have one of these rooms.) Two people will often check each other for fit and any possible exposure. Vent and Xray, IVs and procedural equipment are supplies are dedicated to the room. In addition to the vent, central lines and arterial lines, multiple IV machines to carry fluids and blood products, if necessary. Some IV and medication drips. The Art line for blood draws for labs and blood gases. After three days, IV nutrition with separate access. Sometimes cardiac meds and catheters in the heart chambers to monitor optimal blood flow. RT goes in to check vent settings and meds to loosen pulmonary secretions. Patient needs turning every 1-2 hours often with four people and keeping all these lines secure. Cardiac monitor. Patients bodily functions do not stop. Exiting through the door back into the anteroom where all the covering are disposed off with the consideration that they are all infected. At least all is done every two hours, usually more often. For CPR, quickly all must do this to enter the room, possibly turning from the prone position. Then there is contact with the anxious, worried family. Some patients are not 250-300 pounds, in severe distress, in need of dialysis, or ECMO. Down the road, decsions are made when to trach the patient to prevent damage to the trachea over the long term. ICU stays for Covid patients are 5-19 days.

                        Other diseases requiring airborne precautions include, but are not limited to: Measles, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS), Varicella (chickenpox), and Mycobacterium tuberculosis. Airborne precautions apply to patients known or suspected to be infected with microorganisms transmitted by airborne droplet nuclei.

                        Now imagine each ICU nurse has two Covid patients for a twelve hour shift in rooms without negative pressure and no anteroom. Are they getting more with the ICU full and overwhelmed and staffing is short? For staffing in normal times, an assignment of two of these is never done. Then home to one's family. In normal times, three twelve hour shifts a week. Every patient waiting in hallways, or any areas in the hospital until a bed is available is not on a cardiac monitor. If ambulances are stacked up outside of ER and because ER staff and management are in communication with all other hospitals in the area, that means no one has rooms. Rural hospitals without critical care rooms or staff trained and experienced for 6-12 months can't send their patients there.

                        Wear a mask. Get the vaccine.
                        Last edited by Legacy; 01-09-2021, 04:54 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
                          FWIW: I have just been informed that our entire retirement community (all oldsters) will be vaccinated in-house during the day of January 15th. Sore arms or not, we are looking forward to this --- this is about 120-140 people. Admin and workers will also get the vaccine adding to that number.
                          Good to hear Mike! Please let us know how it goes. I have a family member who is around your age and a cancer patient here in Cali and is scheduled for the first dose on the same day. I am glad the two of you do not live in NY. Last I heard the age cutoff to be accepted in that state was 75.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
                            FWIW: I have just been informed that our entire retirement community (all oldsters) will be vaccinated in-house during the day of January 15th. Sore arms or not, we are looking forward to this --- this is about 120-140 people. Admin and workers will also get the vaccine adding to that number.
                            Nice! OMMs retirement community is about to be like sodom and gomorrah!

                            Comment


                            • We are Sodom and Gomorrah?
                              What an A$$hole comment.
                              You have nothing better to do than sh!t on older people?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
                                We are Sodom and Gomorrah?
                                What an A$$hole comment.
                                You have nothing better to do than sh!t on older people?

                                My best interpretation of his comment; all the needles going in and out for the vaccines...well, ya know the story.

                                Comment


                                • Well, you have a wonderful upbeat imagination, and I admire that, but Sodom and Gomorrah were the places where there could not be found a single person worthy of life except for Lot and his family. So they were destroyed as worthless human filth. Note that this is also where the term "sodomy" comes from. REALLY insulting as far as I'm concerned.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Legacy View Post
                                    In normal times in ICUs, airborne precautions are instituted in a negative pressure room with an anteroom in which caregivers mask with a n95, gown, glove, hat, booties, etc so that no part of one's clothes is exposed. (Most ICUs have one of these rooms.) Two people will often check each other for fit and any possible exposure. Vent and Xray, IVs and procedural equipment are supplies are dedicated to the room. In addition to the vent, central lines and arterial lines, multiple IV machines to carry fluids and blood products, if necessary. Some IV and medication drips. The Art line for blood draws for labs and blood gases. After three days, IV nutrition with separate access. Sometimes cardiac meds and catheters in the heart chambers to monitor optimal blood flow. RT goes in to check vent settings and meds to loosen pulmonary secretions. Patient needs turning every 1-2 hours often with four people and keeping all these lines secure. Cardiac monitor. Patients bodily functions do not stop. Exiting through the door back into the anteroom where all the covering are disposed off with the consideration that they are all infected. At least all is done every two hours, usually more often. For CPR, quickly all must do this to enter the room, possibly turning from the prone position. Then there is contact with the anxious, worried family. Some patients are not 250-300 pounds, in severe distress, in need of dialysis, or ECMO. Down the road, decsions are made when to trach the patient to prevent damage to the trachea over the long term. ICU stays for Covid patients are 5-19 days.

                                    Other diseases requiring airborne precautions include, but are not limited to: Measles, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS), Varicella (chickenpox), and Mycobacterium tuberculosis. Airborne precautions apply to patients known or suspected to be infected with microorganisms transmitted by airborne droplet nuclei.

                                    Now imagine each ICU nurse has two Covid patients for a twelve hour shift in rooms without negative pressure and no anteroom. Are they getting more with the ICU full and overwhelmed and staffing is short? For staffing in normal times, an assignment of two of these is never done. Then home to one's family. In normal times, three twelve hour shifts a week. Every patient waiting in hallways, or any areas in the hospital until a bed is available is not on a cardiac monitor. If ambulances are stacked up outside of ER and because ER staff and management are in communication with all other hospitals in the area, that means no one has rooms. Rural hospitals without critical care rooms or staff trained and experienced for 6-12 months can't send their patients there.

                                    Wear a mask. Get the vaccine.
                                    On point, as always. In this "shit has hit the fan" mode, the sad reality is that every staff member on duty assumes that he/she has already been exposed and is just working against the clock. I don't think anyone is changing gear, the fortunate ones are probably suited up with PAPRs and bunny suits and they're just scrambling from patient to patient. The "less valuable" staff like CNAs and other techs are in and out as needed. No housekeeping, food service, etc. would be allowed in, except for rare circumstances. It's more like Outbreak and less like Gray's Anatomy.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
                                      Well, you have a wonderful upbeat imagination, and I admire that, but Sodom and Gomorrah were the places where there could not be found a single person worthy of life except for Lot and his family. So they were destroyed as worthless human filth. Note that this is also where the term "sodomy" comes from. REALLY insulting as far as I'm concerned.
                                      I kind of took it as once you guys get fully immunized, you can go and embrace all the sinful desires you oldsters deserve. Then again, I am a deviant, so go figure.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by SonofOahu View Post
                                        On point, as always. In this "shit has hit the fan" mode, the sad reality is that every staff member on duty assumes that he/she has already been exposed and is just working against the clock. I don't think anyone is changing gear, the fortunate ones are probably suited up with PAPRs and bunny suits and they're just scrambling from patient to patient. The "less valuable" staff like CNAs and other techs are in and out as needed. No housekeeping, food service, etc. would be allowed in, except for rare circumstances. It's more like Outbreak and less like Gray's Anatomy.
                                        Kudos to you for being on the Ethics Committee and to your wife working in the ER.

                                        High risk exposure comes with intubation, replacing an endotracheal tube, suctioning and oral care, tracheotomies, a single sliding door for a room without negative pressure that opens into a hallway, terminal cleans of rooms between patients, and then there are patients on gurneys in lobbies and ER hallways. Combat medicine with a daily emotional toll.
                                        Last edited by Legacy; 01-10-2021, 04:36 AM.

                                        Comment


                                        • Ok, need some assistance from those more educated folk on this board. I have an opportunity to get the vaccine since I’m a first responder. I’m 43 and have no health issues. Not overweight, non smoker, no breathing issues or allergies (other than seasonal). I rarely get sick. I get the flu vaccine every year, so not an anti vaccine person.

                                          I have some relatives I see (less frequently lately) that are more in the risk group. I’m not really concerned with recovery from COVID near term, but I am wary of long term effects. I’m also a bit concerned with the speed at which it was approved.

                                          Should I be worried more about the side effects/etc of COVID more/less than the potential long term effects/side effects of the vaccine?

                                          I don’t want to jump in front of deserving people, but also understand the need of vaccinating a large number of the population to try and obtain herd immunity. *Im not around as many people as I used to be due to promotions and such, so I don’t get exposed to others as much as some on my job. I’m also not sure at this point which vaccine is available at this point here.

                                          Please help, as I didn’t expect to need to make this decision yet.

                                          Also, I won’t be basing my decision entirely on what I read here, but I do value the input from those here that have a lot more knowledge than I

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by irishtrooper View Post
                                            Ok, need some assistance from those more educated folk on this board. I have an opportunity to get the vaccine since Iím a first responder. Iím 43 and have no health issues. Not overweight, non smoker, no breathing issues or allergies (other than seasonal). I rarely get sick. I get the flu vaccine every year, so not an anti vaccine person.

                                            I have some relatives I see (less frequently lately) that are more in the risk group. Iím not really concerned with recovery from COVID near term, but I am wary of long term effects. Iím also a bit concerned with the speed at which it was approved.

                                            Should I be worried more about the side effects/etc of COVID more/less than the potential long term effects/side effects of the vaccine?

                                            I donít want to jump in front of deserving people, but also understand the need of vaccinating a large number of the population to try and obtain herd immunity. *Im not around as many people as I used to be due to promotions and such, so I donít get exposed to others as much as some on my job. Iím also not sure at this point which vaccine is available at this point here.

                                            Please help, as I didnít expect to need to make this decision yet.

                                            Also, I wonít be basing my decision entirely on what I read here, but I do value the input from those here that have a lot more knowledge than I
                                            Purely my opinion, but as a FR, and given you're going to be around a lot of folks (them putting you at risk, and you possibly putting them at risk), I'd take it.

                                            You're not jumping the line. You're a strategic, and proper choice for prioritization.
                                            The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
                                            Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by irishtrooper View Post
                                              Ok, need some assistance from those more educated folk on this board. I have an opportunity to get the vaccine since Iím a first responder. Iím 43 and have no health issues. Not overweight, non smoker, no breathing issues or allergies (other than seasonal). I rarely get sick. I get the flu vaccine every year, so not an anti vaccine person.

                                              I have some relatives I see (less frequently lately) that are more in the risk group. Iím not really concerned with recovery from COVID near term, but I am wary of long term effects. Iím also a bit concerned with the speed at which it was approved.

                                              Should I be worried more about the side effects/etc of COVID more/less than the potential long term effects/side effects of the vaccine?

                                              I donít want to jump in front of deserving people, but also understand the need of vaccinating a large number of the population to try and obtain herd immunity. *Im not around as many people as I used to be due to promotions and such, so I donít get exposed to others as much as some on my job. Iím also not sure at this point which vaccine is available at this point here.

                                              Please help, as I didnít expect to need to make this decision yet.

                                              Also, I wonít be basing my decision entirely on what I read here, but I do value the input from those here that have a lot more knowledge than I
                                              I'd defer to Oahu or Legacy on this topic (no disrespect to the others in the healthcare industry).

                                              With that said, get it. The more people getting it the better. The risk of long term side effects from a vaccine are spectacularly small especially because of the mechanism by which these two vaccines operate. Your biggest risk is likely an adverse reaction within the first 24-48 hours of the first or second dose, which even then seems unlikely and not that bad for most.

                                              Comment


                                              • At 43 with no comorbidities you have real risk of mortality. Additionally we don't appreciate the long term side effects of natural infection. Everything about the vaccine seems safer to me long term than the virus. Additionally risk of death is individual IFR◊risk catching it. This makes you higher risk than many older people.

                                                Also while unproven, based on moderna studies it appears asymptomatic infection and viral load are lower. In your position that should keep your pts/coworkers safe.

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by irishtrooper View Post
                                                  Ok, need some assistance from those more educated folk on this board. I have an opportunity to get the vaccine since I’m a first responder. I’m 43 and have no health issues. Not overweight, non smoker, no breathing issues or allergies (other than seasonal). I rarely get sick. I get the flu vaccine every year, so not an anti vaccine person.

                                                  I have some relatives I see (less frequently lately) that are more in the risk group. I’m not really concerned with recovery from COVID near term, but I am wary of long term effects. I’m also a bit concerned with the speed at which it was approved.

                                                  Should I be worried more about the side effects/etc of COVID more/less than the potential long term effects/side effects of the vaccine?

                                                  I don’t want to jump in front of deserving people, but also understand the need of vaccinating a large number of the population to try and obtain herd immunity. *Im not around as many people as I used to be due to promotions and such, so I don’t get exposed to others as much as some on my job. I’m also not sure at this point which vaccine is available at this point here.

                                                  Please help, as I didn’t expect to need to make this decision yet.

                                                  Also, I won’t be basing my decision entirely on what I read here, but I do value the input from those here that have a lot more knowledge than I
                                                  First up, WE ALL don't know what the long-term effects of this vaccine are. Who knows, maybe we're all going to grow a third eye in two generations. No, seriously, this type of vaccine has been in development for over 30 years. It's not new like CRISPR. I'm not really concerned.

                                                  My opinion is that you should get it when you can. Logistically, it's easier to plan out everyone saying yes than it is to calculate percentages of yes/no because now you're going to end up layering shipments.

                                                  You taking it is not going to change the expected delivery dates for your family members one iota. The planning for this is scaled into the millions; a one-off is not going to change the calculus.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Originally posted by irishtrooper View Post
                                                    Ok, need some assistance from those more educated folk on this board. I have an opportunity to get the vaccine since I’m a first responder. I’m 43 and have no health issues. Not overweight, non smoker, no breathing issues or allergies (other than seasonal). I rarely get sick. I get the flu vaccine every year, so not an anti vaccine person.

                                                    I have some relatives I see (less frequently lately) that are more in the risk group. I’m not really concerned with recovery from COVID near term, but I am wary of long term effects. I’m also a bit concerned with the speed at which it was approved.

                                                    Should I be worried more about the side effects/etc of COVID more/less than the potential long term effects/side effects of the vaccine?

                                                    I don’t want to jump in front of deserving people, but also understand the need of vaccinating a large number of the population to try and obtain herd immunity. *Im not around as many people as I used to be due to promotions and such, so I don’t get exposed to others as much as some on my job. I’m also not sure at this point which vaccine is available at this point here.

                                                    Please help, as I didn’t expect to need to make this decision yet.

                                                    Also, I won’t be basing my decision entirely on what I read here, but I do value the input from those here that have a lot more knowledge than I
                                                    I understand your hesitancy due to some unknowns. You may not have the conditions and exposures that elevate your risk and that some of your co-workers have, but you have risk even from a co-worker more exposed more frequently to high viral loads who are not vaccinated. This virus is so challenging to prevent spread and dangerous to so many of us with both its short and long term consequences.

                                                    The new more transmissible variant may take over in a couple of months increasing the importance of checking its spread and keeping you on the job and family safe. Fortunately, the vaccines protect you from the variant, too. Three of my family members have had the vaccine. I'll get the vaccine by the end of the week (Pfizer, but I'd accept the Moderna). I don't think they cut corners and sacrificed safety to get this tested and approved. Whatever you decide, getting as many first responders as possible vaccinated will be key. So far over 9 million doses have been given and we are not hearing of any significant side effects, if you want to consider that as the results of a massive trial.
                                                    Last edited by Legacy; 01-12-2021, 03:28 AM.

                                                    Comment


                                                    • Originally posted by irishtrooper View Post
                                                      Ok, need some assistance from those more educated folk on this board. I have an opportunity to get the vaccine since Iím a first responder. Iím 43 and have no health issues. Not overweight, non smoker, no breathing issues or allergies (other than seasonal). I rarely get sick. I get the flu vaccine every year, so not an anti vaccine person.

                                                      I have some relatives I see (less frequently lately) that are more in the risk group. Iím not really concerned with recovery from COVID near term, but I am wary of long term effects. Iím also a bit concerned with the speed at which it was approved.

                                                      Should I be worried more about the side effects/etc of COVID more/less than the potential long term effects/side effects of the vaccine?

                                                      I donít want to jump in front of deserving people, but also understand the need of vaccinating a large number of the population to try and obtain herd immunity. *Im not around as many people as I used to be due to promotions and such, so I donít get exposed to others as much as some on my job. Iím also not sure at this point which vaccine is available at this point here.

                                                      Please help, as I didnít expect to need to make this decision yet.

                                                      Also, I wonít be basing my decision entirely on what I read here, but I do value the input from those here that have a lot more knowledge than I
                                                      Iím not one of the educated people, and Iíve had all the same concerns as you. Iím not in any of the risk groups and am a bit concerned with what I put into my body. On the other hand, they put us to the front of the line for a reason. If we are down we cannot help people. That and in discharge of our duties we have the ability to spread the virus to the public and our families. I go on fever/cough runs all day. Though I have my reservations, it does a lot more good for us to take it than not.

                                                      Comment


                                                      • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
                                                        We are Sodom and Gomorrah?
                                                        What an A$$hole comment.
                                                        You have nothing better to do than sh!t on older people?
                                                        Mike Iím pretty sure it was an off the cuff joke. Weíve all heard about what goes on down in places like the villages in Florida. You are too well respected around here for someone to take a cheap shot at you. Iím happy you are getting the vaccine. Stay healthy.

                                                        Comment


                                                        • Thank you, but I've had a lot of cheap shots over the years. Usually I just don't respond. (Hell, someone not-to-be-named began a campaign to vote me the most overrated poster. That got lots of votes, nearly all from guys who consistently didn't "like" my posts --- too "serious", I think. I just stopped posting for a while to slow the jackanape chattering.) I'm getting old and less willing to just shut up. I'm sure that childish goof-joking played some role, but it's really offbase/insensitive anyway. No one really appreciates direct attack "Kidding." (I apologize for my ego-excursion here --- usually I don't do that.)

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                                                          • Interesting that there was recent discussion about hesitancy to take the virus. Vox just released a report that something like 40% of first responders have declined to take it at the current time. There's a number of significant factors contributing to that, but according to one of the researchers at Yale they knew holdouts would be an issue going in and they haven't done anything to mitigate that unfortunately.

                                                            FWIW I plan to get the vaccine. I was going to wait three months to see how the population at large is affected in that time, but honestly by the time it's available to me it'll be 3 months or more down the road anyway.

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                                                            • In the medical field the more education a person has the more likely they are to get the vaccine. Ironically it also predicts voting for president. Party ID's were inverted 20 years ago. Docs used to be the base of the Republican party.

                                                              Comment


                                                              • Originally posted by PerthDomer View Post
                                                                In the medical field the more education a person has the more likely they are to get the vaccine. Ironically it also predicts voting for president. Party ID's were inverted 20 years ago. Docs used to be the base of the Republican party.
                                                                I get the sentiment but I'd like to decouple politics from anything and everything regarding this pandemic. It's our biggest hurdle in this country for control of this virus.

                                                                Comment


                                                                • Total agreement. Now that the presidency is in transition, the message about COVID should get clearer to everyone as the "news" changes.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                  • I believe it's "healthcare workers" which could include non-professionals like medical assistants, etc. I'd like to see that breakdown and also rural v urban and areas that have high rates of Covid v others.

                                                                    This is usually referring to the Kaiser Family Foundation study. That breakdown has "Essential workers" at 33%, "Healthcare workers" at 29% with the public at 27$, Nursing home workers at 60%. The latter are usually predominantly assistants and some LPNs with one RN required per shift.

                                                                    https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...december-2020/

                                                                    If you get Covid - although it's hard to determine exactly - antibodies last for 6 months while getting the vaccine would provide protection for nine months or longer.

                                                                    Some have posted here that they think they had it in February or early days.
                                                                    Last edited by Legacy; 01-12-2021, 01:04 PM.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                    • I appreciate the intelligent responses here and I’ve done A LOT of research/reading since yesterday (some prior to, but wasn’t expecting availability this soon). I’ve decided to take it as the benefits outweigh the potential risk.

                                                                      I wasn’t questioning the vaccine due to my lack of intelligence or because I voted a certain way, but it seemed like I should be comfortable with my decision. I am no expert and there’s so much information out there, it can be hard to decipher which POV has a motive and why.... Narrative pushing (on both sides) gets in the way of productive debate and discussion. I keep an open mind and I sincerely appreciate those that took the time to respond to my post.

                                                                      Thank you

                                                                      Comment


                                                                      • Originally posted by irishtrooper View Post
                                                                        I appreciate the intelligent responses here and Iíve done A LOT of research/reading since yesterday (some prior to, but wasnít expecting availability this soon). Iíve decided to take it as the benefits outweigh the potential risk.

                                                                        I wasnít questioning the vaccine due to my lack of intelligence or because I voted a certain way, but it seemed like I should be comfortable with my decision. I am no expert and thereís so much information out there, it can be hard to decipher which POV has a motive and why.... Narrative pushing (on both sides) gets in the way of productive debate and discussion. I keep an open mind and I sincerely appreciate those that took the time to respond to my post.

                                                                        Thank you
                                                                        I'll be getting the vaccine here shortly given my age, but the wife said she doesn't want to get it. Like SonofOahu said, it will be quite a while before we really know the effects, but I think you have to trust the system.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                        • Originally posted by irishtrooper View Post
                                                                          I appreciate the intelligent responses here and I’ve done A LOT of research/reading since yesterday (some prior to, but wasn’t expecting availability this soon). I’ve decided to take it as the benefits outweigh the potential risk.

                                                                          I wasn’t questioning the vaccine due to my lack of intelligence or because I voted a certain way, but it seemed like I should be comfortable with my decision. I am no expert and there’s so much information out there, it can be hard to decipher which POV has a motive and why.... Narrative pushing (on both sides) gets in the way of productive debate and discussion. I keep an open mind and I sincerely appreciate those that took the time to respond to my post.

                                                                          Thank you
                                                                          All I can add is that in my close friend group from ND five people went on to be doctors... they're some of the smartest people I know, and all of them got the vaccine as soon as possible. I think you made the right choice, and I hope other people make a similar choice.
                                                                          Last edited by IrishLax; 01-13-2021, 09:46 AM.

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                                                                          • Someone before was suggesting that the mRNA vaccine prevents symptoms but not infection... meaning vaccinated people could still be asymptomatic transmission vectors. Early data out of Israel is suggesting that this is not the case and even one dose of the vaccine helps prevent infection outright.

                                                                            <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Maybe the two most tentatively heartening snippets of news I&#39;ve ever seen. Very early data from Israeli healthcare providers is suggesting a sharp drop in infections among those who&#39;ve received one jab. Clalit says -33%, Maccabi -60% both at around 2wks. <a href="https://t.co/4DFoj43WjP">https://t.co/4DFoj43WjP</a> <a href="https://t.co/FsBqVTYJFE">pic.twitter.com/FsBqVTYJFE</a></p>&mdash; Mike Bird (@Birdyword) <a href="https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/1349073493330165765?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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                                                                            • Originally posted by IrishLax View Post
                                                                              Someone before was suggesting that the mRNA vaccine prevents symptoms but not infection... meaning vaccinated people could still be asymptomatic transmission vectors. Early data out of Israel is suggesting that this is not the case and even one dose of the vaccine helps prevent infection outright.

                                                                              <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Maybe the two most tentatively heartening snippets of news I've ever seen. Very early data from Israeli healthcare providers is suggesting a sharp drop in infections among those who've received one jab. Clalit says -33%, Maccabi -60% both at around 2wks. <a href="https://t.co/4DFoj43WjP">https://t.co/4DFoj43WjP</a> <a href="https://t.co/FsBqVTYJFE">pic.twitter.com/FsBqVTYJFE</a></p>&mdash; Mike Bird (@Birdyword) <a href="https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/1349073493330165765?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
                                                                              That's amazing stuff, I wonder how messaging is going to have to be to make sure people get the second dose? First battle is the "not sure about the side effects" people, next I think is the "first dose is good enough".

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                                                                              • A general comment about "disease":

                                                                                "Infection" is a somewhat arbitrary label applied by us humans when, to our estimate/view, some virus or organism's presence in the body has created enough havoc to reach some criterion of us being "sick."

                                                                                My point is that we all have potentially dangerous micro-organisms or viruses in our systems all the time. Our bodies' immune systems are fighting constant warfare skirmishes with these things and usually winning that war of attrition so that the effects of the bad guys do not rise to the level of threatening damage.

                                                                                So, in the extreme way of looking at a vaccine, no vaccine is going to stop the virus from "getting inside." No vaccine can be potent enough so that intruders will be wiped out as soon as they set foot inside the nasal membranes. What they will do is to create a much greater number of armed robot killers (from our own immune system, and therefore our own selves/genetics --- i.e. NOT "foreign" robot killers) who more efficiently defeat the invaders.

                                                                                The vaccine cannot stop the bad guys from entering (masks to a large degree can.) The vaccine cannot stimulate ourselves to produce an overwhelming hoard of killer robot immune cells so as to kill them instantly. The vaccine CAN help create enough robots so that the bad guys evil work never ascends to the level that you or I or our doctor would say we are "diseased."

                                                                                So, we use the term "infection" just a little too vaguely. Infection is, to a degree, a human judgement call at least until some scientific measurements/data can substantiate that actual damage is being done. "Presence of the virus" is not necessarily there yet for the condition to be labeled "infection." It's a useful word to a point, but I'd like to hear what different medical scientists use as criteria before they give out post-vaccine "infection" numbers.

                                                                                .... my understanding, and I stick with Fauci here, is that the current vaccines are about 90%-95% effective in preventing virus activity to rise to levels where it is causing actual measurable/data-based harm after one shot plus another booster. (Probably the higher number.) Note that, as a stick-in-the-mud, I didn't use "infection" in that sentence. The immune-system so empowered can then slowly rout the viral stragglers and defend the castle for 9 months or so, till its viral memory loses a bit of intensity (and we might need boosters if the rest of the country is still misbehaving and we haven' (via herd-immunity) routed it entirely.)

                                                                                p.s. 33% sure as he!l isn't good enough for the herd

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                                                                                • Originally posted by IrishLax View Post
                                                                                  Someone before was suggesting that the mRNA vaccine prevents symptoms but not infection... meaning vaccinated people could still be asymptomatic transmission vectors. Early data out of Israel is suggesting that this is not the case and even one dose of the vaccine helps prevent infection outright.

                                                                                  <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Maybe the two most tentatively heartening snippets of news I've ever seen. Very early data from Israeli healthcare providers is suggesting a sharp drop in infections among those who've received one jab. Clalit says -33%, Maccabi -60% both at around 2wks. <a href="https://t.co/4DFoj43WjP">https://t.co/4DFoj43WjP</a> <a href="https://t.co/FsBqVTYJFE">pic.twitter.com/FsBqVTYJFE</a></p>&mdash; Mike Bird (@Birdyword) <a href="https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/1349073493330165765?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
                                                                                  Saw the numbers comparing first week to second week to third week...it was astonishing! Israel has done a great job thus far which gives the rest of the world a template to follow as far as the importance of getting the vaccinations implemented efficiently.

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                                                                                  • My wife and I are fully vaccinated, as are our kids.

                                                                                    But my wife's been looking into this more and more, and seen a lot of stuff that is giving her pause, and even feeling negligent for not looking into the research behind vaccines before. She's actually down on herself and I tell her it's probably fine and not to feel bad at all.

                                                                                    This video is 18 mins but every minute of it is extremely compelling:

                                                                                    https://vimeo.com/386313325

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                                                                                    • Originally posted by TorontoGold View Post
                                                                                      That's amazing stuff, I wonder how messaging is going to have to be to make sure people get the second dose? First battle is the "not sure about the side effects" people, next I think is the "first dose is good enough".
                                                                                      I wonder if this makes the case for those priority groups to still get two doses, and those under 65 with no comorbidities to get 1 to make it go further. Idk. I donít think it needing to go further is going to be too much of an issue as it looks like we will be getting JNJ early Feb.

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                                                                                      • I do have concern about the new mRNA vaccine. It's never been done before and the rush to get this vaccine to the public has me concerned.

                                                                                        With that said, the greater "at risk" you are the more likelihood that i would recommend taking the vaccine despite the concerns.

                                                                                        My Mom is close to 80, relatively healthy, but I would recommend that she takes it.

                                                                                        My kids are 18-25. They have almost zero risk. They obviously will make their own decision, but I will be recommending to them that they wait and let this play out. As others have said, we don't know what, if any, long term issues may come up from a mRNA vaccine.

                                                                                        If my kids were under 16, no way in hell I would let them get vaccinated until a lot of time has passed.

                                                                                        For myself, I really am not sure what I will do. I'm certainly more at risk than my kids and want to wait some reasonable amount of time to see how this plays out. If I was offered in January, I would decline. If my time doesn't come until May, not sure of my answer.

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                                                                                        • As to that vimeo about Larry Palevsky --- compelling? Hopefully not.

                                                                                          Palevsky is what he calls a "holistic pediatrician" who believes that most of modern "physical" medicine is useless if not directly harmful. Here are two of his opinions:

                                                                                          A. The 2019 measles outbreak in NYC/Brooklyn was caused by measles in vaccines, and not measles spread in a normal way human to human. Now, there is not only NO (zero) data to support that speculation, but as Palevsky (who runs a Wellness Center in the area) should know, only THREE PERCENT of the people getting measles in that outbreak had been vaccinated at all.

                                                                                          B. Instead of doing any medicine at all when your child gets sick, Palevsky believes that you should do nothing at all --- just keep them in bed. Two quotes:

                                                                                          “I believe in what’s called a starvation diet for kids when they’re sick."

                                                                                          “Most of the reason that kids get sick is to move or get rid of wastes anyway.”

                                                                                          This guy doesn't know what he's spewing talk about. Maybe he actually believes his sh!t, but he is riding high as a holistic medicine "expert" at speaking engagements. Either way, he's dangerous. Oregon took away the ability of a better known "MD" with similar claims to practice in the state. (guy named Thomas)

                                                                                          Compelling ... good lord save us from slick snake-oil salesmen.

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                                                                                          • On a more factual note: I just talked with The Fountains' activities coordinator who was just back from a three week "vacation" --- but it wasn't.

                                                                                            She and her family went to a wedding just before Christmas (wedding of a close relative.) The wedding was out-of-state and brought in people from several areas. Apparently nearly everyone got COVID. Her whole family did (despite she is in the habit of being very careful.) It was a mini-spreader event.

                                                                                            Her experience was pretty bad as to feeling very sick, but in her case that wasn't lungs-oriented. She had two bad weeks of gradually lessening sickness, and slowly increasing energy. Here at the end of the third week, she is convalescent to a degree, but still feels out-of-gas most of the time.

                                                                                            Her son (not a baby nor a pre-schooler) wasn't so "lucky." He got COVID of the lungs-attack kind. His condition was touch and go for a while, but thankfully is now in recovery.

                                                                                            Forget that idiot Palevsky and get the DAMM vaccine!!!

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                                                                                            • I’ll be 40 this year and have decided to hold off to see what side effects might look like. My work is from home though and can stay isolated for the most part. My diabetic GF however spends a lot of time in dental practices and got her first shot last week.

                                                                                              Grams, who will be 84 soon, is scheduled for her first vaccination next week thankfully.

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                                                                                              • Originally posted by Old Man Mike View Post
                                                                                                As to that vimeo about Larry Palevsky --- compelling? Hopefully not.

                                                                                                Palevsky is what he calls a "holistic pediatrician" who believes that most of modern "physical" medicine is useless if not directly harmful. Here are two of his opinions:

                                                                                                A. The 2019 measles outbreak in NYC/Brooklyn was caused by measles in vaccines, and not measles spread in a normal way human to human. Now, there is not only NO (zero) data to support that speculation, but as Palevsky (who runs a Wellness Center in the area) should know, only THREE PERCENT of the people getting measles in that outbreak had been vaccinated at all.

                                                                                                B. Instead of doing any medicine at all when your child gets sick, Palevsky believes that you should do nothing at all --- just keep them in bed. Two quotes:

                                                                                                ďI believe in whatís called a starvation diet for kids when theyíre sick."

                                                                                                ďMost of the reason that kids get sick is to move or get rid of wastes anyway.Ē

                                                                                                This guy doesn't know what he's spewing talk about. Maybe he actually believes his sh!t, but he is riding high as a holistic medicine "expert" at speaking engagements. Either way, he's dangerous. Oregon took away the ability of a better known "MD" with similar claims to practice in the state. (guy named Thomas)

                                                                                                Compelling ... good lord save us from slick snake-oil salesmen.
                                                                                                <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iCAm3WVH8bE?start=46" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                                                                                                2:14 is quite important.

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                                                                                                • Originally posted by IrishRazor82 View Post
                                                                                                  My wife and I are fully vaccinated, as are our kids.

                                                                                                  But my wife's been looking into this more and more, and seen a lot of stuff that is giving her pause, and even feeling negligent for not looking into the research behind vaccines before. She's actually down on herself and I tell her it's probably fine and not to feel bad at all.

                                                                                                  This video is 18 mins but every minute of it is extremely compelling:

                                                                                                  https://vimeo.com/386313325
                                                                                                  If we have any medical experts here, can you please discount this Dr with decades of PCP experience?

                                                                                                  Because if 50% of this is accurate it's incredibly Fd up.

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                                                                                                  • Just to mention that I am not an uneducated idiot: I have a PhD with a masters degree in Biochemistry from Iowa State university, and taught science for thirty years, including some bits on human immune systems and viruses. I admit that I am not an expert on everything, but note that not all doctors are either, and some people who happen to have MDs turn into quacks, as we see over and over again.

                                                                                                    By all means seek many opinions --- just note that there are lots of slick sounding brainy individuals who have found lucrative niches in the upper middle class (looking for easy answers public) --- they hold workshops and weekends and anti-science retreats and sell untested and unbased-in-anything products etc etc.

                                                                                                    Does any of it work? beyond psychology and placebo? Who knows? But don't suck in just because "hey that sounds kinda right to me" no matter how much baseless internet talk surrounds it.

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                                                                                                    • Originally posted by IrishRazor82 View Post
                                                                                                      My wife and I are fully vaccinated, as are our kids.

                                                                                                      But my wife's been looking into this more and more, and seen a lot of stuff that is giving her pause, and even feeling negligent for not looking into the research behind vaccines before. She's actually down on herself and I tell her it's probably fine and not to feel bad at all.

                                                                                                      This video is 18 mins but every minute of it is extremely compelling:

                                                                                                      https://vimeo.com/386313325
                                                                                                      Watched half of it and I am not a medical expert at all. When I start hearing about the increase in behavioral disorders or learning disabilities in children, I think there may be multiple things going on. This guy (and others) want to put the blame on vaccines. It may have an affect, I don't know. I have seen other people (and studies) talk about the same problem in children and point to obesity and the types of foods we eat now and the terrible ingredients. They also use science and make compelling cases. I've seen others say it's related to the amount of time children are exposed to screen time. Studies show that can have a dramatic affect.

                                                                                                      It also seems that diagnosing these issues is much more common than when I was a kid. Does that mean there is more of it or is it just now being diagnosed at a greater rate? I don't know. In my profession (fire service) PTSD has been a popular subject the last five years. The first 15 years I worked, I never heard anyone talk about it or get diagnosed as having it. The last five, that has dramatically changed. Is it because nobody had it before? Probably not.

                                                                                                      Sorry for an uneducated response. I think you've done the right thing, personally. Interested to hear what others think.
                                                                                                      "The problem with having a sense of humor is often that people you use it on aren't in a very good mood." - Lou Holtz

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