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Newc
12-12-2007, 03:52 PM
ESPN - Mitchell to announce results of steroid probe at news conference - MLB (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3151479)

2pm. Thursday December 13, 2007. A day that will live in infamy.

I will be praying and crossing my fingers that none of my Sox will be named in this report.


Hopefully this thread can be a sanctuary for we fans to come and console each other as our heros as named as villians.

I really hope that after all is said and done that this report was not done in vain and rather provides a turning point for the game of baseball.

goldandblue
12-12-2007, 03:58 PM
Maybe they won't. By the way, I answered your questions in the hot or not thread.

KAPLAN
12-12-2007, 04:09 PM
Word on the street is Schilling, Ortiz, and Manny will all be named...

Newc
12-12-2007, 04:17 PM
Haha...would that street happen to be anywhere near 5th avenue?

SoCalDomer
12-12-2007, 04:17 PM
Word on the street is Schilling, Ortiz, and Manny will all be named...

I hear the report mentions he faked the blood on his sock too. :ogrin:

Newc
12-12-2007, 04:27 PM
I guess when you are World Champs you have to take all the rips.

Irishknight1023
12-12-2007, 04:28 PM
Schill would look rather funny if he was on the list after he blew up Bonds the way he did. I think if Jeter was on it then the world would come to an end and baseball would implode.

Newc
12-12-2007, 04:33 PM
Yea exactly, can you imagine if guys like Jeter or Griffey or even someone like Eckstein was named? That would be a HUGE blow to the game.

Akron Irish
12-12-2007, 04:39 PM
Yea exactly, can you imagine if guys like Jeter or Griffey or even someone like Eckstein was named? That would be a HUGE blow to the game.

I heard he was going to advise Eckstein to take them. Poor boy needs em

daytonirish
12-12-2007, 04:39 PM
Peter Gammons doesn't think to much will come out of this. He said players were told by the union not to cooperate.

onenybrother
12-12-2007, 04:45 PM
I have a bad feeling my boy Mike Piazza is gonna be on that list.

Akron Irish
12-12-2007, 06:29 PM
It'll probably list 49 players who are not in the bigs and Sammy Sosa

IrishRamMan10
12-12-2007, 06:33 PM
Hopefully the whole angels squad is mentioned.

Akron Irish
12-12-2007, 06:35 PM
Hopefully the whole angels squad is mentioned.

All they need to mention is Vlad and they're done

Newc
12-12-2007, 10:43 PM
It'll probably list 49 players who are not in the bigs and Sammy Sosa


Yea really. I was worried about that. After all the hoopla and noise that has been made by this report, what if it just came out with all these names of former players that used and doesn't mention any of the current players using. I could definitely see baseball doing that as a cop-out. Like a, see we tried to clean up the game now give us our ribbon, type of move.

ACamp1900
12-12-2007, 11:09 PM
ESPN - Mitchell to announce results of steroid probe at news conference - MLB (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3151479)

2pm. Thursday December 13, 2007. A day that will live in infamy.

I will be praying and crossing my fingers that none of my Sox will be named in this report.


Hopefully this thread can be a sanctuary for we fans to come and console each other as our heros as named as villians.

I really hope that after all is said and done that this report was not done in vain and rather provides a turning point for the game of baseball.

Hello..... the MITCHELL report... like the guy is gonna turn in his own team... every single team EXCEPT the sox will probably be involved... just another reason to hate that slimy organization... first they trade the Babe for a Broadway play... then years of ineptness... then long standing racism... then collusion followed by an overly bitter fan base... now this.

go Boston!


;)

;)

kjones
12-12-2007, 11:46 PM
This may be sacrilege to some of you, but if MLB imploded, I probably wouldn't really miss anything except the World Series.

SoCalDomer
12-13-2007, 12:57 AM
I love baseball, but I have to agree. There are things I can live without in the current MLB.

Sureal
12-13-2007, 09:22 AM
Sureal admits to performance enhancing drug usage
Combined Services

HARTFORD- Sureal, a random poster on Irish Envy, has admited to using the performance enhancing steroid Clear. Findings in a drug test concludes that he has been using the steroid. In a raid at his office desk the authorities confiscated a container that was marked Cocoa Butter but when tested the steroid was found. Sureal stated "I needed to use the steroid in order to recover quickly due to prolonged staring at useless excel spreadsheets and reviewing revenue numbers for the 20,000,000 time to make sure that every department is accounted for. I have been answering stupid questions that have been asked by my superiors that make more money than I do at least 7 out of the 8 hours that I am at my desk and I needed an extra boost. I apologize to my fans and friends. There is no excuse for steroid use anyway you put it."

daytonirish
12-13-2007, 09:46 AM
The shame, us new, young , and vulnerable posters here at IE have looked up to you and considered you not just an American Icon but as our hero. You let us down Sureal and this will take time for us to recover from. Thank you for finally being honest with us. :( :no: :cry: :curse: :confused:

KAPLAN
12-13-2007, 09:47 AM
Word just came out that Roger Clemens will be in the report for taking Steriods. A 45 year old man that got stronger....what a shock.

johnnd05
12-13-2007, 09:49 AM
Word just came out that Roger Clemens will be in the report for taking Steriods. A 45 year old man that got stronger....what a shock.

Awesome. Maybe now he'll leave us the f--- alone.

KAPLAN
12-13-2007, 09:50 AM
Awesome. Maybe now he'll leave us the f--- alone.

Will he give us back the 24 million we wasted on him last year?

onenybrother
12-13-2007, 09:53 AM
Sureal admits to performance enhancing drug usage
Combined Services

HARTFORD- Sureal, a random poster on Irish Envy, has admited to using the performance enhancing steroid Clear. Findings in a drug test concludes that he has been using the steroid. In a raid at his office desk the authorities confiscated a container that was marked Cocoa Butter but when tested the steroid was found. Sureal stated "I needed to use the steroid in order to recover quickly due to prolonged staring at useless excel spreadsheets and reviewing revenue numbers for the 20,000,000 time to make sure that every department is accounted for. I have been answering stupid questions that have been asked by my superiors that make more money than I do at least 7 out of the 8 hours that I am at my desk and I needed an extra boost. I apologize to my fans and friends. There is no excuse for steroid use anyway you put it."

Say is aint so. Sureal was my Idol. I looked up to him, now this. I will never look at CoCoa Butter the same again. What is this world is going to when a man who's about to go in the 9 to 5 Hall of Fame would risk it all on steriods. Fawk you Sureal. P.S. I burning my Jerseys also.

johnnd05
12-13-2007, 09:53 AM
Will he give us back the 24 million we wasted on him last year?

Umm ... no. Nor will he give me back the bits of my soul that died every time I swallowed real hard and made myself cheer for him.

onenybrother
12-13-2007, 09:56 AM
Word just came out that Roger Clemens will be in the report for taking Steriods. A 45 year old man that got stronger....what a shock.

Please let's be careful with the names until proof can be shown. I know everyone wants to be the one who got the scoop first. But it unfair to spit names out with something to back it up. I heard Goshen Gipper was Sureal supplier

onenybrother
12-13-2007, 10:02 AM
If Clemens In the report. His boy Andy can't be far behind. They are famous for working out together. We saw Clemens roid rage when threw the bat at my boy MIke.

notredomer23
12-13-2007, 10:11 AM
Clemens is definitly on em. Pettite, not so much. Ill be surprised if he is. Giambi will be but i hate him so i dont care. I just pray Arod, Jeter, or Cano are not accused in the report.

Newc
12-13-2007, 10:16 AM
The New York post is the one reporting that Clemens is on the list, so take that into consideration as they are not the most reputable when it comes to breaking news.

That being said, if someone were to tell me that Clemens was a user I don't think that I wouldn't believe them....look at the guy. Just like Bonds he has gotten visually bigger in his older years.

I doubt that Jeter and A-Rod would be named as I doubt they are steroid users. Those two guys are just purely talented and quite young so I don't see why they would have the need. I also consider Jeter a class act, so if his name were to come out in this report I would be incredibly surprised. He did however give Jessica Alba herpes, so maybe we don't know these guys as well as we think we do.

daytonirish
12-13-2007, 10:18 AM
I heard that Clemons is putting the blame on three B-Sox fans who post here on IE. Something about pouring it in his drink when he wasn't looking. Now without actuall proof they did this please do not condem them. They are guilty until proven innocent in a N.Y. court house. All I can say is good luck Spinner, Newc, and Sureal. We will all be watching the trial closely. :eek:

NDOM
12-13-2007, 10:20 AM
Nothing against ANY of your guys posts but WHO FUC_ING CARES? I'm so damn sick of hearing about this shit I could puke. The mitchell report, the mitchell report, More on the mitchell report. You know what I think????

EFF THE DAMN MITCHELL REPORT

ab2cmiller
12-13-2007, 10:29 AM
If you're that upset about it, I would probably suggest not reading this particular thread anymore. You are going to have a heart attack or something.

Sureal
12-13-2007, 11:33 AM
NDOM is raging!!! Test him!!! j/k ;)

I hear ya man but it's the mainline news (CNN, FOXNews) of the day I guess.
It's like:

"Let's be more concerned about cheatin millionaires while we still have a war going on."

Didn't Al-Qaeda attack innocent people in Algeria?
What about the wonton gun violence in public places that has occured over the past what 2 weeks?


Yet as we are posting in the sports world(IE, ESPN, GH) this is going to be a topic...

SoCalDomer
12-13-2007, 11:44 AM
Word just came out that Roger Clemens will be in the report for taking Steriods. A 45 year old man that got stronger....what a shock.

It wouldn't surprise me that there could be just as many pitchers as position players who used them. One thing about pitching is that it takes a toll on your legs and arm for relievers and starters alike. They may not have used them to get big, but instead to recover quickly to make it through 163+ games.

IMO, I think a blanket ban from the Hall of Fame for anybody who played during the steriod era. This morning on First Take, they debated whether Clemens and Bonds deserve to be there. The arguments for both of them were that they were both HOF material before we have evidence of them taking drugs. That is such a weak argument.

1) So what. You don't reward cheaters.
2) There will not be any punishment for the cheating, allowing them into the HOF only adds to the complete lack of punishment for cheaters.
3) The process of determining who was a HOF candidate before we think they took drugs is so completely subjective as to render that argument completely meritless.

The most likely response to my opinion is that it is unfair to those who did not take the steroids but might otherwise be HOF material. To that I respond:

1) Only a handful of players have come out and been honest about their own use or what they know about other players. Honesty is completely lacking in baseball. People who've said they never did, turn around and fail a test. Others refuse to answer questions, taking the 5th or just refuse to talk about it. Even this "study" will not reveal everyone who cheated.
2) Those who did not take them likely knew who did and sat idly by and did nothing about it. I know Wham didn't like this quote from me: "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." The "good players" (non-cheaters) did nothing, now they live with the consequences.
3) It's the players' union that bears a good bit of the fault for allowing this culture to exist. The union protects cheaters by refusing to agree to any kind of drug testing (until recently). The non-cheaters allowed the union to do so and went along with it. Therefore the non-cheaters are just as guilty by agreeing to allow the union to protect the cheaters and stifle any efforts to root out drugs in baseball. The non-cheaters should have insisted on drug testing, because they were more likely to lose money, possibly lose a career because they couldn't compete with enhanced players. That leads me to believe that a majority (meaning more than 50%) of the players used them. If less than a majority used them, the the non-cheating majority could have easily out-voted the minority cheaters and agreed to a drug testing policy

There may also be those who argue: "who cares, players should be allowed to ingest whatever they want so long as they accept the consequences. Afterall, it's just entertainment."

1) The entertainment argument is weak. If we're not interested in legitimate competition, why not just have the games scripted. Before the game, the teams will decide who gets to hit homeruns, how many runs are scored, how many strikeouts, etc. That would ensure you're entertainment is maximized. "But then it's fake, no longer a game." Exactly, but that's what entertainment is: fake. Baseball is a competition, not entertainment, at least is should be. The fact that it might be entertaining does not change the basic premise: players compete on a level playing field with the objective to score more runs than the opponent.
2) The ripple effect of allowing the players to take the drugs is that it requires minor leaguers and college players to do so, and on down the competition chain. If I'm a minor leaguer or college player and one day I am going to have to compete with steroid enhanced players, no scout is going to look at me unless I appear that I can compete at that level. But I will never make the minor leagues or college unless I start now. "I need an edge. I should start taking the steroids now, so that I can compete with them sooner."

Ok, I'm done. Don't feel the need to respond. Just venting.

Newc
12-13-2007, 11:46 AM
Holy ShiT!!!!!

Sorry for my language but CNBC is listing some names that have been leaked from the list, so far they have listed these names:

Roger Clemens
Andy Pettite
Jason Varitek
Albert Pujols
Eric Gagne
Jason Giambi
Mark McGuire
Sammy Sosa
Johnny Damon
Aaron Boone
Brett Boone
Nomar Garciaparra
Miguel Tejada
Mark Prior
Kerry Wood

Like I said, this is being reported by CNBC and not written in stone.

My stomach cringed after reading that list...I can't believe it.

Newc
12-13-2007, 11:51 AM
I feel sick.

daytonirish
12-13-2007, 11:54 AM
Lot of Sox players being thrown out there.

Rocket's Rocket Fan
12-13-2007, 11:56 AM
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettite
Jason Varitek
Albert Pujols
Eric Gagne
Jason Giambi
Mark McGuire
Sammy Sosa
Johnny Damon
Aaron Boone
Brett Boone
Nomar Garciaparra
Miguel Tejada
Mark Prior
Kerry Wood


Where is Bonds? That will be the worst if his name doesn't come up.

SoCalDomer
12-13-2007, 11:56 AM
CNBC is listing some names that have been leaked from the list, so far they have listed these names:

Roger Clemens
Andy Pettite
Jason Varitek
Albert Pujols
Eric Gagne
Jason Giambi
Mark McGuire
Sammy Sosa
Johnny Damon
Aaron Boone
Brett Boone
Nomar Garciaparra
Miguel Tejada
Mark Prior
Kerry Wood


Of that list Pujols is the most surprising to me and the most dissapointing. If you notice something about that list, 1) there are a bunch of pitchers on it which is what I said above would not surprise me; and 2) many of those players suffered significant injuries at one time. It will not surprise me to hear the explanations: "I just took them to help my recovery from _____."

EDIT: Later revealed info proved the initial report about Pujols being in the report was wrong, along with a number of other names released here.

SoCalDomer
12-13-2007, 11:59 AM
Where is Bonds? That will be the worst if his name doesn't come up.

I don't think that's a comprehensive list. It was a few names leaked to the media. (BTW, I hate that everything seems to be leaked to the media, whether it's national secrets or grandjury testimony; where the heck is the honesty these days.)

Sureal
12-13-2007, 12:04 PM
Mostly every team has been hit. Let's say screw it and start watching Poker Tournaments. At least their clean. Sad day. :(

KAPLAN
12-13-2007, 12:10 PM
Bonds did not make the list b/c it was an investigative report and everyone and thier brother already knew he was on Roids. 3 five year olds and a home doctor kit could have made that discovery. He is the biggest cheater ever and everyone knows it. Putting him in the report would be a waste of ink.

The Polish Irishman
12-13-2007, 12:16 PM
mmm..What a surprised...Nobody named the best player of my era on that list

Greg Maddux...........350 wins and a 85 mph fastball and NO STERIODS

Cheers to you Mad Dog

Rocket's Rocket Fan
12-13-2007, 12:16 PM
Bonds did not make the list b/c it was an investigative report and everyone and thier brother already knew he was on Roids. 3 five year olds and a home doctor kit could have made that discovery. He is the biggest cheater ever and everyone knows it. Putting him in the report would be a waste of ink.

LOL...Thanks for clearing that up KAPLAN

Newc
12-13-2007, 12:17 PM
Of that list Pujols is the most surprising to me and the most dissapointing. If you notice something about that list, 1) there are a bunch of pitchers on it which is what I said above would not surprise me; and 2) many of those players suffered significant injuries at one time. It will not surprise me to hear the explanations: "I just took them to help my recovery from _____."


Unfortunately I really think that is the major reason behind their use. Guys either coming back from injury or trying to prolong their careers. Look at Wood and Prior, talk about being desperate for something to get you back into the bigs.


Its a sad day for sure, like someone said on here before, this report is something you really wanted to see, but once you see it you wish you hadn't.

NDBCSChamps
12-13-2007, 12:20 PM
I just watched the CNBC web video of the anchor reading off the list and he named Bonds in his segment. I think records held by any of these players need to be reverted back to the prior record holders. It won't happen but it should.

johnnd05
12-13-2007, 12:25 PM
Wow. Yeah, Pujols is the toughest on that list to swallow. The rest are pretty unsurprising ...

johnnd05
12-13-2007, 12:26 PM
WNBC.com's Jonathan Dienst has obtained names expected to be on George Mitchell's list of baseball players linked to performance-enhancing drugs in major league baseball. Baseball officials are refuting several names on the list.

A high-ranking MLB official said there are several errors in the list provided to WNBC.com by two sources. Our two sources are standing by the preliminary list provided to WNBC.com. Therefore, we are working to clarify the list at this time.

Mitchell's Steroid List Leaked, Disputed By MLB Official - Sports News Story - WNBC | New York (http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html)

Newc
12-13-2007, 12:28 PM
Nice find John. Thats the problem with reporting the info first, sometimes its not completely accurate.

I appologize if I upset anyone with posting what I heard from CNBC, the best bet is to just wait till 2:00 and hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

ab2cmiller
12-13-2007, 02:18 PM
Link to the actual report. Warning ... it's pretty big ... LOL ..... 409 pages

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

The Polish Irishman
12-13-2007, 02:29 PM
I hope I was not named.....I never got injected in the butt by another man

ab2cmiller
12-13-2007, 02:47 PM
I didn't read the report but I did skim through and pick out some of the bigger names:

Clemens
Pettite
Mo Vaughn
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Brian Roberts
Lenny Dykstra
Miguel Tejada
Paul Lo Duca
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Rick Ankiel
Jose Canseco
Matt Williams
David Segui

It looks like almost all of the names mentioned are connected somehow through the Kirk Radomski. If he wouldn't have met with Mitchell, it looks like they would have had very little to report

ab2cmiller
12-13-2007, 02:58 PM
Section of the report about McGwire

During the course of this investigation, we interviewed a number of coaches, club personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire’s alleged use of steroids. Through his personal lawyer, I asked McGwire to meet with me for an nterview about these issues, but he declined to do so. I then sent his lawyer a list of specific questions about whether McGwire had ever used steroids or other performance enhancing substances without a prescription during his major league career, in the hope that McGwire would be willing to provide a response outside of the context of an interview. Neither McGwire nor his lawyer responded to that letter. (I sent similar letters with specific questions to lawyers for Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Gary Sheffield, none of whom provided answers to my questions either.)

Newc
12-13-2007, 03:05 PM
For Sox fans out there...the Veritek naming was false!! Veritek was NOT named in the Mitchell report!!!!

Thank God, that one really hurt bad when I heard that this morning.


Goes to show you, not everything reported is accurate.

Newc
12-13-2007, 03:25 PM
Mo Vaughn hurts though. They even have copies of the checks he wrote to buy HGH in the report.

Big Mo was the man, it hurts to now see him in this light. Its a shame.

johnnd05
12-13-2007, 03:39 PM
Randy Velarde? RANDY VELARDE???? What's next, Mike Gallego taking shots in the butt? Give me a break ...

Man, do the Yanks come out looking bad here or what?

johnnd05
12-13-2007, 03:39 PM
For Sox fans out there...the Veritek naming was false!! Veritek was NOT named in the Mitchell report!!!!

Thank God, that one really hurt bad when I heard that this morning.


Goes to show you, not everything reported is accurate.

Same for Pujols ...

stonebreakerwasgod
12-13-2007, 03:41 PM
Baseball is boring. Midseason next year, no one will care about this report.

johnnd05
12-13-2007, 03:47 PM
Baseball is boring. Midseason next year, no one will care about this report.

Midseason next year, no one will care about BASEBALL.

Newc
12-13-2007, 03:53 PM
Same for Pujols ...

Good call...I forgot about that one. A little too wrapped up in searching for Sox names.

ab2cmiller
12-13-2007, 04:02 PM
Full List of Names
Names in the Mitchell report - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-mitchellnames121307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

NEW NAMES

Chad Allen
Mike Bell
Gary Bennett
Larry Bigbie
Kevin Brown
Alex Cabrera
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Matt Franco
Eric Gagne
Matt Herges
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill
Todd Hundley
Mike Judd
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
Daniel Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Armando Rios
Brian Roberts
F.P. Santangelo
Mike Stanton
Ricky Stone
Miguel Tejada
Ismael Valdez
Mo Vaughn
Ron Villone
Fernando Vina
Rondell White
Jeff Williams
Todd Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun


PREVIOUSLY LINKED

Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Ricky Bones
Paul Byrd
Jose Canseco
Paxton Crawford
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella
Ryan Franklin
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Darren Holmes
Ryan Jorgensen
Gary Matthews Jr.
Rafael Palmeiro
John Rocker
Benito Santiago
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Matt Williams

Newc
12-13-2007, 04:07 PM
Reps for putting together an easy-to-read list.

Sureal
12-14-2007, 10:50 AM
Good call...I forgot about that one. A little too wrapped up in searching for Sox names.

Ditto. This report reports nothing new. We all pretty much knew about the names for a while so IMO the Mitchell Report stated the obvious... There are really no surprising names on the list, even Clemens. It was long rumored that he was on something.

Newc
12-14-2007, 05:18 PM
This report has brought up a very interesting debate, mainly based around Clemens because he is one of the best of all time as well as being named by Mitchell. So should guys on this list be considered for the Hall of Fame, most notably Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds??

ACamp1900
12-14-2007, 08:08 PM
Randy Velarde? RANDY VELARDE???? What's next, Mike Gallego taking shots in the butt? Give me a break ...

Man, do the Yanks come out looking bad here or what?

My parents grew up with Randy... and we know his family... lol

ACamp1900
12-14-2007, 08:14 PM
Least suprising aspect of the list... 20 Yankees... one pigeon from EACH New York team... so much for impartial... not that New York baseball is beyond beating up but the radio ways and media were brutal today... like only those in NY pinstripes injected... lol

btw, how many Sox are actually on the list... three?

IrishFan4Life
12-14-2007, 08:16 PM
Reps for putting together an easy-to-read list.


I second that

SoCalDomer
12-15-2007, 03:02 AM
This report has brought up a very interesting debate, mainly based around Clemens because he is one of the best of all time as well as being named by Mitchell. So should guys on this list be considered for the Hall of Fame, most notably Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds??

Yes, it is an interesting issue. Of course, the media is going to focus on the race difference between them and use that as a reason Bonds will still continue to have more negativity for his alleged used. I think they both deserve the same amount of contempt, but considering Bonds is a less likeable guy, even by those who played MLB, it won't surprise me if he still receives more public scorn.

What I posted earlier:


IMO, I think a blanket ban from the Hall of Fame for anybody who played during the steriod era. This morning on First Take, they debated whether Clemens and Bonds deserve to be there. The arguments for both of them were that they were both HOF material before we have evidence of them taking drugs. That is such a weak argument.

1) So what. You don't reward cheaters.
2) There will not be any punishment for the cheating, allowing them into the HOF only adds to the complete lack of punishment for cheaters.
3) The process of determining who was a HOF candidate before we think they took drugs is so completely subjective as to render that argument completely meritless.

The most likely response to my opinion is that it is unfair to those who did not take the steroids but might otherwise be HOF material. To that I respond:

1) Only a handful of players have come out and been honest about their own use or what they know about other players. Honesty is completely lacking in baseball. People who've said they never did, turn around and fail a test. Others refuse to answer questions, taking the 5th or just refuse to talk about it. Even this "study" will not reveal everyone who cheated.
2) Those who did not take them likely knew who did and sat idly by and did nothing about it. I know Wham didn't like this quote from me: "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." The "good players" (non-cheaters) did nothing, now they live with the consequences.
3) It's the players' union that bears a good bit of the fault for allowing this culture to exist. The union protects cheaters by refusing to agree to any kind of drug testing (until recently). The non-cheaters allowed the union to do so and went along with it. Therefore the non-cheaters are just as guilty by agreeing to allow the union to protect the cheaters and stifle any efforts to root out drugs in baseball. The non-cheaters should have insisted on drug testing, because they were more likely to lose money, possibly lose a career because they couldn't compete with enhanced players. That leads me to believe that a majority (meaning more than 50%) of the players used them. If less than a majority used them, the the non-cheating majority could have easily out-voted the minority cheaters and agreed to a drug testing policy

There may also be those who argue: "who cares, players should be allowed to ingest whatever they want so long as they accept the consequences. Afterall, it's just entertainment."

1) The entertainment argument is weak. If we're not interested in legitimate competition, why not just have the games scripted. Before the game, the teams will decide who gets to hit homeruns, how many runs are scored, how many strikeouts, etc. That would ensure you're entertainment is maximized. "But then it's fake, no longer a game." Exactly, but that's what entertainment is: fake. Baseball is a competition, not entertainment, at least is should be. The fact that it might be entertaining does not change the basic premise: players compete on a level playing field with the objective to score more runs than the opponent.
2) The ripple effect of allowing the players to take the drugs is that it requires minor leaguers and college players to do so, and on down the competition chain. If I'm a minor leaguer or college player and one day I am going to have to compete with steroid enhanced players, no scout is going to look at me unless I appear that I can compete at that level. But I will never make the minor leagues or college unless I start now. "I need an edge. I should start taking the steroids now, so that I can compete with them sooner."

Ok, I'm done. Don't feel the need to respond. Just venting.

kjones
12-15-2007, 06:27 AM
As long as there is proof that they took steroids, keep them out by all means. Whether we all think they are guilty or not, it's just a bad moral precedent to condemn someone for something you cannot prove they did. Now I realize that this moral high ground is easier for me, because I really could care less about the Hall of Fame's, and baseball's in particular. There's so many players in them, it just kinda loses meaning for me, anyone good who plays a while gets in it seems like. But I digress.

Personally, I think in terms of raw skill, Bonds was probably one of the best baseball players who's ever played, and it's a shame he felt he needed to juice, though he's probably one of the worst human beings who's played baseball. But then we talk about some of the older greats who where even worse with a kind of nostalgia (I'm looking at you Ty Cobb).

Either way, if you can prove Bonds did steroids: 1. he's probably going to jail, and 2. he should have a lifetime ban, just like Pete Rose. But I'd like there to be no room for debate, no room for whiners and apologists to wriggle. Either you can prove it or you can't, and to me, that should decide it. I'd be willing to live with Bonds in the HoF if they can't prove it, because it just seems unfair to me to punish someone without that proof. But then I realize I have an overdeveloped sense of fairness and I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.

Of course this is all just my opinion, but then I don't have anyone else's opinion to give :).

SoCalDomer
12-15-2007, 10:15 AM
kjones, you raise good arguments.

This isn't all that unlike the Black Sox scandal, where the players were actually criminally prosecuted but found not guilty.

The newly hired commissioner nonetheless kicked them all out of baseball because there was enough evidence of cheating. So I don't have alot of faith in this commissioner who wink winked at the problem the whole way through this.

ACamp1900
12-15-2007, 01:19 PM
kjones, you raise good arguments.

This isn't all that unlike the Black Sox scandal, where the players were actually criminally prosecuted but found not guilty.

The commissioner nonetheless kicked them all out of baseball because there was enough evidence of cheating. But that was back when commissioners had integrity. So I don't have alot of faith in this commissioner who wink winked at the problem the whole way through this.

There was no commissioner when the black sox scandal occured... the scandal was the very reason FOR a commissioner... also I think stating kenesaw mountain landis was a man of great integrity is certainly a challengable statement...

kjones
12-15-2007, 04:50 PM
Kenesaw Mountain Landis (November 20, 1866 November 25, 1944) was an American jurist who served as a federal judge from 1905 to 1922, and subsequently as the first commissioner of Major League Baseball. Born in Millville, Ohio, to Abraham Hoch Landis and Mary (Kumler) Landis. He grew up in Logansport, Indiana where, at the age of 17, he played on and managed the Logansport High School baseball team. He later dropped out of school to take a job at the courthouse in South Bend, Indiana. He died in Chicago in 1944.

interesting huh?

KamaraPolice
12-15-2007, 04:52 PM
Hello..... the MITCHELL report... like the guy is gonna turn in his own team... every single team EXCEPT the sox will probably be involved... just another reason to hate that slimy organization... first they trade the Babe for a Broadway play... then years of ineptness... then long standing racism... then collusion followed by an overly bitter fan base... now this.

go Boston!


;)

;)

I love it.

God forbid we name schilling; the bloody sox fiasco has given him permanent immunity from steroids and hgh allegations.

Sureal
01-15-2008, 10:31 AM
Who is watching the hearing today?

onenybrother
01-15-2008, 11:36 AM
Me.

Rocket's Rocket Fan
01-15-2008, 11:40 AM
I've been watching some of it between classes.

ACamp1900
01-15-2008, 12:18 PM
Home sick today... so I'm watching...

onenybrother
01-15-2008, 04:39 PM
Hope you feel better Camp. Can't wait to see Clemen's and the rest of the cheats next month.

Sureal
01-15-2008, 04:57 PM
What happened today? Just a lot of preliminary crap?

SoCalDomer
01-15-2008, 08:39 PM
i didn't watch, but probably a bunch of congressmen and women spouting off and chiding MLB, Player's Union, etc.

ACamp1900
01-15-2008, 08:51 PM
What happened today? Just a lot of preliminary crap?

Exactly as SoCal quessed... at one point Bus S. and Donald F. were basically called hypocrites for allowing this to happen yet up holding Joe Jackson's suspension... stating cheating is cheating and you knew about this...


i didn't watch, but probably a bunch of congressmen and women spouting off and chiding MLB, Player's Union, etc.