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stonebreakerwasgod
05-13-2007, 10:20 PM
:soapbox:
When the Yankees spend more money on their pitching staff than entire teams' payroll, ya think it's time for baseball to consider equitable revenue sharing? I'm not exactly big on taxing those attempting to gain wealth and sharing it with the little guy, but in baseball, it seems necessary.
Unlike football and basketball, the baseball draft is so meaningless, few would even want to watch it. Much less have a marked effect on a major league team within several years (in most cases).

I'm tired of seeing the same old teams get the big name players, while the small market teams (I haven't even heard mention of the Royals in like forever!) are left with the dregs. Of course, when they are eligible for free agency, they are GONE.

Like the wonderful, handsome, honest, forthright Bill Clinton once said.."It's time for change".:wink:

ShivaIrish
05-13-2007, 10:22 PM
When the Yankees spend more money on their pitching staff than entire teams' payroll, ya think it's time for baseball to consider equitable revenue sharing? I'm not exactly big on taxing those attempting to gain wealth and sharing it with the little guy, but in baseball, it seems necessary.
Unlike football and basketball, the baseball draft is so meaningless, few would even want to watch it. Much less have a marked effect on a major league team within several years (in most cases).

What are you a socialist Stoney?:)

stonebreakerwasgod
05-13-2007, 10:42 PM
You might think that in this case, wouldn't you. :)

I'm just tired of the Reds and other perennial losers losing.

ACamp1900
05-13-2007, 11:01 PM
As long as the Yanks payroll keeps Bo Sox from winning titles... I'm all for the system as is...:wink:

stonebreakerwasgod
05-13-2007, 11:08 PM
Hmmm..I like the angels too, but dang. They are one of the richies.

Zephyr
05-13-2007, 11:11 PM
You might think that in this case, wouldn't you. :)

I'm just tired of the Reds and other perennial losers losing.

I thought it was a good series against the Dodgers...

GO DODGERS!

gallup21
05-13-2007, 11:24 PM
As long as the Yanks payroll keeps Bo Sox from winning titles... I'm all for the system as is...:wink:


DITTO

gallup21
05-13-2007, 11:25 PM
and living 12 miles from the horrendously ugliness of fenway does not require me to root for the slobs aka red sox

IRISHDODGER
05-14-2007, 12:11 AM
Gotta disagree w/ you on this one, Stoney. As a Dodger fan, I grew up hating the Yanks as much as anyone. That being said, I respect the fact that Steinbrenner invests his cash in his team &, I believe, in some cases, at a loss. Think back from 1982 through 1995. That was the time between WS visits; and you had to go back to 1978 since their last WS championship before '96.

I don't recall too many people feeling bad for King George when he was signing a bunch of average players at superstar salaries only to see them all turn out to be busts. Remember Roy Smalley, Butch Wynegar, Dave Collins, Eddie Whitson, Bob Shirley, Johnny Oates, Steve Kemp, Jesse Barfield, Ken Griffey (Sr.)? Yeah, most Yank fans would prefer to forget them & a host of others as well. They are proof that you can't just throw money at the problem.

From '96 till the present, Cashman & his staff have done a decent job of throwing the big bucks at players who earned their money. Especially when it netted them WS championships. That being said they haven't won one since 2000 & have gambled some big bux on busts like Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, Hideki Irabu, & Randy Johnson (he had decent numbers but not what the Boss was expecting after that huge contract).

My beef is w/ the small market teams that cry poverty (specifically the Royals & Twins) when their billionaire owner is too stingy to crack open the piggy bank. I believe that Carl Pohlad, owner of the Twins, is the wealthiest owner in all of MLB, yet he knows that the general public perceives them as "small market" & so he can use "poverty" as an excuse when he loses a big-time, homegrown player (like Tori Hunter who will probably leave after this season b/c of $$). The Royals owner, Wal-Mart executive David Glass, isn't exactly on welfare either. He finally breaks out his pocketbook this past offseason on an average pitcher in Gil Meche. Glass, like the other small mkt owners, receive profit sharing from the money the big-mkt teams bring in to supposedly even the playing field as best as possible. Unfortunately, the owners aren't forced (though they should be) to reinvest that money in upgrading their roster. Instead, they pocket the dough. That's the problem w/ these successful CEO's who want to run their baseball team like a business: they get caught up in making a profit & not caring as much about rings. Then if the losing gets too unbearable & the ticket sales plummet, the owners complain about lack of a new stadium & insist the taxpayers buy them a new one. When they do, the owner can just sell the team for a nice profit & try his luck in another professional sports league.

When the owners of these smaller mkt. teams start spending EVERY nickel they receive from profit-sharing on bettering their rosters, I may start to sympathize a little. But then, I'll remember that their bank accounts dwarf that of Steinbrenner's & I'll think the better of it.

IRISHDODGER
05-14-2007, 12:11 AM
I thought it was a good series against the Dodgers...

GO DODGERS!

I saw the highlights from this afternoon's game...good stuff.

ShivaIrish
05-14-2007, 01:27 AM
My beef is w/ the small market teams that cry poverty (specifically the Royals & Twins) when their billionaire owner is too stingy to crack open the piggy bank. I believe that Carl Pohlad, owner of the Twins, is the wealthiest owner in all of MLB, yet he knows that the general public perceives them as "small market" & so he can use "poverty" as an excuse when he loses a big-time, homegrown player (like Tori Hunter who will probably leave after this season b/c of $$). The Royals owner, Wal-Mart executive David Glass, isn't exactly on welfare either. He finally breaks out his pocketbook this past offseason on an average pitcher in Gil Meche. Glass, like the other small mkt owners, receive profit sharing from the money the big-mkt teams bring in to supposedly even the playing field as best as possible. Unfortunately, the owners aren't forced (though they should be) to reinvest that money in upgrading their roster. Instead, they pocket the dough. That's the problem w/ these successful CEO's who want to run their baseball team like a business: they get caught up in making a profit & not caring as much about rings. Then if the losing gets too unbearable & the ticket sales plummet, the owners complain about lack of a new stadium & insist the taxpayers buy them a new one. When they do, the owner can just sell the team for a nice profit & try his luck in another professional sports league.

When the owners of these smaller mkt. teams start spending EVERY nickel they receive from profit-sharing on bettering their rosters, I may start to sympathize a little. But then, I'll remember that their bank accounts dwarf that of Steinbrenner's & I'll think the better of it.

It is my understanding that Pohlad does actually invest the money from profit-sharing into the team. However, the Twins just don't have as big of a market as other teams to generate revenue, and Pohlad probably doesn't give much from his own pocket (which I don't blame him for).

stonebreakerwasgod
05-14-2007, 07:43 AM
I agree with Shiva. Baseball is not a charity where owners are supposed to LOSE money. There is supposed to be some profitability. Let's face it. It's the have's against the have nots. Which, if they let it continue, baseball will lose a whole lotta fans who get tired of their teams losing every year.

IRISHDODGER
05-14-2007, 08:30 AM
It is my understanding that Pohlad does actually invest the money from profit-sharing into the team. However, the Twins just don't have as big of a market as other teams to generate revenue, and Pohlad probably doesn't give much from his own pocket (which I don't blame him for).

That's my point, Steinbrenner does give much from his own pocket. It's his choice, granted; but they can't have it both ways.

IRISHDODGER
05-14-2007, 08:52 AM
I agree with Shiva. Baseball is not a charity where owners are supposed to LOSE money. There is supposed to be some profitability. Let's face it. It's the have's against the have nots. Which, if they let it continue, baseball will lose a whole lotta fans who get tired of their teams losing every year.

The only things that can't be helped is the market in which each team is located. Other than that what do the Twins, Royals, Pirates & other small mkt owners not have that Steinbrenner has? They all have the choice of using resources from their vast empire(s)...some like Steinbrenner & Moreno do; others like Pohlad & Glass do not.

These baseball teams are trophies for the rich & a chance to win in another realm (bragging rights, ego boosts)...one that they could never compete in themselves or one that they have a true passion for. I doubt most owners buy a pro team to profit. If that were the case, they'd buy a team, build it up, sell it at a profit & move on to the next team or venture. Plus, I'm sure they have plenty of tax write-offs they can take advantage of (not sure about the entire tax implications). The few pro sports teams that are considered wise investments are usually diverse in that they incl. profitable broadcast rights.

Go back to the early '70s when Steinbrenner purchased the Yanks from CBS. He initially desired to purchase his hometown Indians, but they weren't for sale. He "settled" for the Yanks & built it up as the empire it is today. That includes the YES network & all the other benies his organization has accrued. Kind of like ND & their NBC deal...most other colleges & fans are jealous of this & thus hate them b/c of it. Life ain't fair.

As far as overall disparity, I don't recall too many repeat winners this century:

2006 - St. Louis Cardinals (last championship in 1982)
2005 - Chicago White Sox (last championship in the early 1900s)
2004 - Boston Red Sox (last championship in the early 1900s)
2003 - Florida Marlins (last championship in 1997 w/ a totally different team that was gutted for salary dumping purposes)
2002 - Anaheim Angels (1st world series appearance)
2001 - Arizona Diamondbacks (recent expansion team; 1st appearance)
2000 - New York Yankees

Ironically, the Marlins have the 2 most recent rings of the aforementioned. Miami is hardly a baseball town & rarely has its stadium even close to capacity. They are also one of the first teams mentioned when discussing moving a team to a new market.

My beloved Dodgers have had one of the top 5 (maybe top 3) payrolls in MLB for quite awhile. They haven't even sniffed a World Series & until last year hadn't won in the postseason since their 1988 World Series Championship.

Finally, as of last nite, the Yanks are 17-19. Never say never, but I'd confidently bet that the Yanks won't be there again this year...even w/ Clemens. So much for throwing money at the problem. Quick, name 5 starters on last year's Detroit Tigers World Series team (w/o googling it!).

stonebreakerwasgod
05-14-2007, 09:34 AM
If your dodgers had a top five payroll and haven't seen a postseason in a while. That is called bad decisions, not lack of opportunity. How many big free agent signings have the reds had in the past five years??? Yeah, I can't think of any either.

Irishknight1023
05-14-2007, 01:57 PM
The Red Sox are right there with the Yankees spending money, until the Clemens thing. They call us the evil empire, but then copy us....lol it's comical they've always wanted to be the Yankees. They finally won a world series and now they'll wait another 100 years to win one again.

Irishknight1023
05-14-2007, 01:58 PM
Stone, you are a Reds fan and you got Griffey all those years ago. At the time that was the biggest name in baseball and It didn't work out. Yankees earn their money from all that early success and has an owner willing to give his money to see his team win. Most owners want to run a team, but no take chances with their money. The Indians did that in the mid 90's and made a run, but the money wasn't coming back their way so they did what most other teams did....play it safe.

As a Yankee fan I love George Stienbrenner no matter how senile he is. I'd like to see the Royals be decent as well, but their owner doesn't want to spend the money and take the chance of it paying off. He gets the best draft picks every single year and they develop and he trades them or lets them go because of the money they are due to get paid. I'd be pissed if i was a smaller team fan and I watched what the Yankees did, but it would just be pure jelousy.

stonebreakerwasgod
05-14-2007, 02:10 PM
We gave away alot to get Griffey (Mike Cameron was a fine CF for us). Griff is a hometown kid. This was for marketing as much as anything else. Aside from him, there has been nobody. Our team has suffered from a serious lack of investment in scouts and the farm system. Just ain't enuf money to go around. I see alot of good players we had to get rid of in order to shed their salary. Makes me shake my head.

Sureal
05-14-2007, 02:17 PM
The Red Sox are right there with the Yankees spending money, until the Clemens thing. They call us the evil empire, but then copy us....lol it's comical they've always wanted to be the Yankees. They finally won a world series and now they'll wait another 100 years to win one again.

Correction it was 86 and, and, so...

No seriously, it's a rivalry. We're bums and the Yankees are elitist. It wouldn't be a rivalry if we didn't compete for the same players year in and out.

In the rare time that I agree with an Empire fan, my question to other teams is if you're angry that big market teams are taking all the good players explain Philadelphia? Explain Minnesota year in and out? The Twins got an exceptional minor league system and easily replace people that leave that organization. It is all about ownership and what they plan on doing with their revenue, period.

Also, a bunch of star players do not equate to WS rings

stonebreakerwasgod
05-14-2007, 02:23 PM
That is ONE team. Not exactly what I would call statistically significant.

Sureal
05-14-2007, 02:26 PM
I guess what I am saying is that there are models to follow around the league. It's up to the owners to figure out their priorities.

stonebreakerwasgod
05-14-2007, 02:48 PM
I don't disagree with you entirely. Our farm system is awful. It does require significant investment though. Something easier said than done.

IRISHDODGER
05-14-2007, 10:23 PM
If your dodgers had a top five payroll and haven't seen a postseason in a while. That is called bad decisions, not lack of opportunity. How many big free agent signings have the reds had in the past five years??? Yeah, I can't think of any either.

Again, that's my point brutha...you can't throw money at your difficiencies. That's why I referenced the Yankee teams from the early 80's thru the mid 90's. No one was whining about the disparity then between the Yanks & the have nots b/c the ludicrous amts of money he was throwing at free agents wasn't paying off. Then he hit the jackpot from '96 thru 2000 but after a few WS losses after that they haven't brought home a ring. So it's like you said about my Dodgers, the Yanks made BAD DECISIONs. Same thing, different team.

stonebreakerwasgod
05-14-2007, 10:35 PM
It would be nice to HAVE the money to throw at free agents and make bad decisions. The reds gave Griffey a nice contract and have been stuck w/ it ever since. Any one want a slightly used CF ( I mean RF) who could be a decent DH???

I know, let's trade Griffey to Boston for Willle Mo Pena. LOL

IRISHDODGER
05-14-2007, 10:48 PM
It would be nice to HAVE the money to throw at free agents and make bad decisions. The reds gave Griffey a nice contract and have been stuck w/ it ever since. Any one want a slightly used CF ( I mean RF) who could be a decent DH???

I know, let's trade Griffey to Boston for Willle Mo Pena. LOL

From what I understand your Reds are known as one of the most frugal organizations in MLB when it comes to signing their draft picks. They're infamous for not shelling out the big bucks in signing bonuses. Draft picks are a tough call b/c that high school phenom could be Derek Jeter or it could be Brien Taylor (incidently a NY Yankees #1 draft choice bust who received the highest signing bonus ever at the time).

I know you gotta be missing the Big Red Machine. But do you miss Marge Schott?

IRISHDODGER
05-14-2007, 11:14 PM
I sure do, she did a great job of dividing the city with her racial slurs. At least she put together some good teams tho, I'll give her that.

Our new owner may turn out to be good, but I have little faith in the GM or the Mgr.
Poop!

I don't think I ever saw her w/o a smokey treat!

ACamp1900
06-05-2007, 06:46 PM
The year the Angels won the the W.S. I don't believe they cracked ten top ten in payroll... only AFTER that did they start spending...

THe Marlins second title... The Twins, The A's, the Tigers last year... each team has it's own situation, but it's been proven that the money doesn't equal the wins... see the L.A. Dodgers or N.Y. Mets over the last decade... AND the 'lack' of money doesn't equal a lack of wins either... plenty of teams have done it if they simply TRY and do it right...

that's my take...

sorry if this has been said already

IRISHDODGER
06-05-2007, 09:35 PM
The year the Angels won the the W.S. I don't believe they cracked ten top ten in payroll... only AFTER that did they start spending...

THe Marlins second title... The Twins, The A's, the Tigers last year... each team has it's own situation, but it's been proven that the money doesn't equal the wins... see the L.A. Dodgers or N.Y. Mets over the last decade... AND the 'lack' of money doesn't equal a lack of wins either... plenty of teams have done it if they simply TRY and do it right...

that's my take...

sorry if this has been said already

It has...but it bears repeating. As a Dodger fan, I'm all too convinced that money doesn't equal WS champs. Steinbrenner is finding out the same thing (once again) this year...much like he did from '82-'95.

stonebreakerwasgod
06-05-2007, 10:24 PM
The year the Angels won the the W.S. I don't believe they cracked ten top ten in payroll... only AFTER that did they start spending...

THe Marlins second title... The Twins, The A's, the Tigers last year... each team has it's own situation, but it's been proven that the money doesn't equal the wins... see the L.A. Dodgers or N.Y. Mets over the last decade... AND the 'lack' of money doesn't equal a lack of wins either... plenty of teams have done it if they simply TRY and do it right...

that's my take...

sorry if this has been said already

Let's see...How many big time free agents have the Reds gotten since Griffey.........NONE. How many will we get next year....NONE. Keep talking, I ain't listening. The Reds have had some bad management/ownership, but because they are small market, it will take many years to make that up. Sux to be us.

ACamp1900
06-05-2007, 10:38 PM
Let's see...How many big time free agents have the Reds gotten since Griffey.........NONE. How many will we get next year....NONE. Keep talking, I ain't listening. The Reds have had some bad management/ownership, but because they are small market, it will take many years to make that up. Sux to be us.

Dude the Reds are a lot closer than you think... if they get a bullpen they're prob. the fav. in that divison...

stonebreakerwasgod
06-05-2007, 10:46 PM
We were one game away from having the worst record in the NL last week. I think Dunn and Griffey need to go. Our entire bullpen sucks, our manager is awful, the fielding is crappy, and the fans are tired of the same old promises, but no action.

HereComeTheIrish
06-05-2007, 10:56 PM
Let's see...How many big time free agents have the Reds gotten since Griffey.........NONE. How many will we get next year....NONE. Keep talking, I ain't listening. The Reds have had some bad management/ownership, but because they are small market, it will take many years to make that up. Sux to be us.

In that dog meat division, it should be up for grabs every year. "Good" starting pitching with a decent bully should get 'er done...Play a little small ball and manufacture runs when you can...hell, 78-81 wins this year should win that division this summer.

stonebreakerwasgod
06-05-2007, 11:02 PM
Who cares about winning that crappy division. The best teams have players that would never even consider coming to Cincinnati, even if the money was there. I, and most of the diehards in cincy, have given up on baseball. It has lost its appeal.