Just out of curiosity? (President)

[Domina Nostra]

Originally Posted by IrishinSyria

Disagree. If the only case against murder is moral, than you're right. But, again, I hold that morality is a measure of individuals, not governments. Bottom line is that society functions just as well or better with abortions (fetus-murders) being legal. (Adult-murders) Murder not so much...the social contract collapses if you're on edge worried about being murdered all the time. I suppose if there was overwhelming agreement that abortion was immoral, than perhaps making it illegal would make sense but lacking that consensus and lacking any clear benefit to society, the moral choice should rest with the individual.

This kind of utitarian is terrifying to me. I feel as if it sounds good in a society that has no intention of embracing it, like the United States, but has led to disastrous consequences where it has been used as a guiding principle (china, Germany, etc.).

It's also nearly impossible to make conclusions like, "society operates better" for abortion. No one has any clue what it would be like without abortion. For example, is Japan going to be better off when it's young workers are out-numbered by older workers who depend on them for benefits? Would Bill Clinton's mom have been better off without her child knowing her husband was going to abandon her? ,And there is wide disagreement about value-loaded terms like "better.". Better for who? In what ways?

I also always find the social contract stuff interesting. A contract is an offer and an acceptance. I didn't agree to anything, and can't get out of my legal obligations. So it doesn't seem like a contract to me. Men like Jefferson, who used such language, also took the idea of revolution much more seriously- they thought it was required

[RDU Irish]

So you throw everyone who aborts a baby in jail? Where does that get you? I can justify prosecuting aborting a viable fetus as murder but a one month gestation embryo?

Society is f-ed up. Trusting your neighbor, let alone your government, to put your best interests at heart is a fools errand. Who am I to say someone can get an abortion in the first trimester OR euthanize themselves because they are 95, terminally ill and in tremendous pain (or for pretty much any reason that person desires for all I care). Then how stupid is it to prosecute and jail these "criminals?" Oh that's right, we jail the doctor not the patient. Just like illegal immigration policy, punish the business hiring them not the one commiting the crime.

Our medical advances are well beyond what I would consider "God's will" as far as letting nature run its course in life. Keeping alive a 4 month premature baby can be just as inhumane in many cases as the terminally ill 95 year old. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should. Sometime you gotta take Ole Yeller out back. And the last person I want deciding any of the above is government.

[RDU Irish]

Originally Posted by Domina Nostra

This kind of utitarian is terrifying to me. I feel as if it sounds good in a society that has no intention of embracing it, like the United States, but has led to disastrous consequences where it has been used as a guiding principle (china, Germany, etc.).

It's also nearly impossible to make conclusions like, "society operates better" for abortion. No one has any clue what it would be like without abortion. For example, is Japan going to be better off when it's young workers are out-numbered by older workers who depend on them for benefits? Would Bill Clinton's mom have been better off without her child knowing her husband was going to abandon her? ,And there is wide disagreement about value-loaded terms like "better.". Better for who? In what ways?

I also always find the social contract stuff interesting. A contract is an offer and an acceptance. I didn't agree to anything, and can't get out of my legal obligations. So it doesn't seem like a contract to me. Men like Jefferson, who used such language, also took the idea of revolution much more seriously- they thought it was required

If that means I like boobies, then YES SIR I am a uTITitarian!

[Ndaccountant]

Originally Posted by Domina Nostra

This kind of utitarian is terrifying to me. I feel as if it sounds good in a society that has no intention of embracing it, like the United States, but has led to disastrous consequences where it has been used as a guiding principle (china, Germany, etc.).

It's also nearly impossible to make conclusions like, "society operates better" for abortion. No one has any clue what it would be like without abortion. For example, is Japan going to be better off when it's young workers are out-numbered by older workers who depend on them for benefits? Would Bill Clinton's mom have been better off without her child knowing her husband was going to abandon her? ,And there is wide disagreement about value-loaded terms like "better.". Better for who? In what ways?

I also always find the social contract stuff interesting. A contract is an offer and an acceptance. I didn't agree to anything, and can't get out of my legal obligations. So it doesn't seem like a contract to me. Men like Jefferson, who used such language, also took the idea of revolution much more seriously- they thought it was required

+1
I think it is incredibly short sighted of anyone to suggest that preventing life has more utility than not. How many great individuals have never been born? Have we aborted someone who would come up with a cure for cancer? Without knowing for sure what that person would accomplish in his/her life, accepting abortion on the concept of utility appears really flawed to me.

Yesterday my daughter called me from work crying. My daughter started her junior year in high school today. I took her and a friend to school and dropped them off this morning.

What caused my daughters breakdown, and subsequent grief, was that the night before, one of her friends, team and class mates committed suicide. I knew this girl. She was a great kid, someone who I had no problems letting my kid hang with. Her family was wonderful.

This is the second girl in the class that committed suicide in six months. And I couldn't get the significance of her taking her own life the night before classes started.

Turns out that both girls dated the same boy. The second girl after the first. Of course you hear every trashy story, and I am convinced all of it is manufactured drama of sixteen year olds. Whether she felt guilty for what she had done or whether she was bullied, it dosesn't matter. It had to do with our societies inexplicable need to force children into adult behaviors.

If you want to cure our societies ills:

Stop child sexual abuse. Statistics show it is as high as 30 to 40 percent for both girls and boys!

Stop objectifying children. Even my exwife and I used to get into it. Now my kids know what to wear around me. If it is too salacious, forget about it. Ten to fifteen year old girls should not wear what pop stars wear. Pop stars should not wear what pop stars wear.

You will always have abortion, an after affect, when you grow your children to lust after empty meaningless sex. Our society imprints a childs worth as equivalent to their sexual attractiveness. This kind of superficiality is deadly when you try to eliminate abortion. First of all promescuity rises tremendously, as does random, unplanned sex, by individuals unable to deal with the consequences of their actions, and a general devaluation of life occurs. If a child has poor self worth, and doesn't respect the value of their own life, how are they to value any other life? That makes abortion a much more tenable option.

I may be an unusual case but I describe myself in favor of women's rights over their body, and an anti-abortionist. I believe contraception is an individuals rights. I have seven children, all who I love and adore, but I wouldn't force that on anyone.

The bottom line is that I want to see them and their children prosper. Going back to back room abortions is no alternative. Needing an abortion can be limited, if not eliminated, with honesty and love. If we start by loving our children so they really get a good idea of their self worth. And if we teach them that nothing is so severe, and nothing more precious than the gift of their lives, then maybe more of our children can grow up to be healthy happy adults.

[RDU Irish]

Sorry to hear that, bog. Great post and great point on the rest.

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Tragic. So sorry to hear that Bog.