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Old 01-19-2017, 08:44 AM   #1079 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedBlueGold View Post
1) You're underestimating what Trump represented to a lot of people in this country. I agree that almost any other left-wing candidate can probably beat him in the next election. I just think that if the DNC props up another establishment type, they're going to be in for another long fight, that could very easily result in a similar outcome. *None of this takes into consideration the high likelihood that Trump will self-implode and lose a tremendous amount of his supporters. He won almost entirely because he won the rust belt, and if he helps those people, they're going to continue to support him and Dems will have to find another path to victory. If he doesn't, they'll all turn back blue and leave Trump out to dry in the next election. It'll be impossible for Trump get re-elected w/o the support of the rust belt states.

2) What's laughable to me is your assumption that I'm a Republican. I've posted my fair share of opinions in political threads, and anyone paying attention would see that I try not to associate myself with any party. *Also, all you did with that remark regarding Booker is to turn a blind eye to what's happening on the Left and immediately point a finger at the Right. That's not productive.
1) Again... the worst candidate ever beat Trump in the popular. If you think Hillary represents the democrats as a whole. You're sorely mistaken. You're talking about a party whose current president has a 60% approval rating.

2) ahh... you're one of those "I'm not any party, but I agree with every stanch from the left/right"?
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Old 01-19-2017, 08:51 AM   #1080 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by woolybug25 View Post
1) Again... the worst candidate ever beat Trump in the popular. If you think Hillary represents the democrats as a whole. You're sorely mistaken. You're talking about a party whose current president has a 60% approval rating.

2) ahh... you're one of those "I'm not any party, but I agree with every stanch from the left/right"?
1) Winning the popular vote doesn't get you into the WH so what's your point?

Bernie Sanders won the rust belt over Clinton. The DNC did everything they could to prevent Bernie from being the candidate. The rust belt then switched from blue, to supporting Trump. Why? It's because they don't trust establishment democrats. Simple as that. And if the left can't figure this concept out, they're going to keep winning the big cities, and keep losing everywhere else. It's not about just Hillary.

2) That's pretty insulting. Do you think I'm incapable of researching policy/partisan views and coming up with my own opinion that may sometimes not toe a particular party line?
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Old 01-19-2017, 08:59 AM   #1081 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BleedBlueGold View Post
1) Winning the popular vote doesn't get you into the WH so what's your point?

Bernie Sanders won the rust belt over Clinton. The DNC did everything they could to prevent Bernie from being the candidate. The rust belt then switched from blue, to supporting Trump. Why? It's because they don't trust establishment democrats. Simple as that. And if the left can't figure this concept out, they're going to keep winning the big cities, and keep losing everywhere else. It's not about just Hillary.

2) That's pretty insulting. Do you think I'm incapable of researching policy/partisan views and coming up with my own opinion that may sometimes not toe a particular party line?
1) You're the one trying to make the connection between Hillary losing and the democrats being done. You're making my argument for me. I bring up the popular vote simply because more people actually voted for the worst candidate the Dems have ever put out over Trump, but you think that it shows they can't win in four years with a better candidate. You brought up Benie. He polled better than Trump in the Rustbelt too. How do any of these facts point to them not having a chance in four years?

2) Since I've never seen you take any other viewpoint, apparently you are not.
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:03 AM   #1082 (permalink)
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Four years of watching all the bed wetters lament over every Trump tweet as the end of the world as we know it will likely create an environment in which he can be 10x worse and nobody will care.

He will be judged on results, not words. All this bickering is meaningless - I am encouraged by the reforms I see being moved to the front of the line.
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:19 AM   #1083 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woolybug25 View Post
1) You're the one trying to make the connection between Hillary losing and the democrats being done. You're making my argument for me. I bring up the popular vote simply because more people actually voted for the worst candidate the Dems have ever put out over Trump, but you think that it shows they can't win in four years with a better candidate. You brought up Benie. He polled better than Trump in the Rustbelt too. How do any of these facts point to them not having a chance in four years?

2) Since I've never seen you take any other viewpoint, apparently you are not.
I said IF the Dems keep propping up establishment type, fake-progressives, they will have problems. If they move towards supporting more populist policies, get back to supporting the working class demographic, and back away from the power of lobbying, they should steam roll these elections. Bernie polled better because he represented the anti-establishment, progressive populists. The DNC shut that shit down and if they do it again, there's a better than good chance they'll wind up with similar results.

Dude, go back and read the Presidential Horse Race thread. Unless you're just trying to troll me, I honestly can't comprehend how you think I'm a Republican just because I've blasted the establishment DNC for being corrupt. I've railed on Republicans just as much.
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:25 AM   #1084 (permalink)
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So I am genuinely interested in how you don't see the parallel here.

A foreign power hacking us in efforts to steer an election = Ends justify means

An officer leaks files showing our military mowing down civilians = traitor

I'm not saying that I agree with Manning being pardoned (I honestly think it's a power play to eventually force someone to do the same with Snowden), but your logic here seems a bit disconnected. Between Snowden and Manning, the latter's leak was far more disturbing to me. The video of a helicopter killing civilians without mercy was sickening.
A few things, somewhat disconnected from one another.

1. A foreign power did not hack "us," as in "The United States of America." They hacked the DNC. Hacking the DNC or the RNC or The Walt Disney Company or The University of Notre Dame is nowhere near the same thing as leaking information from the United States military.

2. If there was collusion between the hackers and the Trump campaign, people should be put in prison.

3. Not every situation has room for only one good guy and one bad guy. I can hold the position that Bradley Manning is a traitor simultaneously with the position that the Granai airstrike was wrong. I can also hold the position that the DNC hackers are criminals simultaneously with the position that what they revealed about the DNC is disturbing.

I haven't seen anyone on the right trying to defend the DNC hack as a good thing, especially if it was actually sanctioned by Putin himself. Even many on the Left have been fairly consistent with the opinion that the DNC hacks as well as the Manning leaks are both major problems. The only huge hypocrisy I see is from Obama himself, whose pardoning of Manning undermines the Left's "Trump is illegitimate" argument.
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:34 AM   #1085 (permalink)
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See, this is the hypocrisy epitomized. I love you, Bogs... but this post is exactly what I'm talking about.

You (and everyone else) rightfully criticized Trump for the "grab them by the pussy" audio that was leaked. Audio he didn't know was being recorded, and there was no consent for it to be released.

But, we're not allowed to criticize Democrats for bigoted and racist and corrupt content that was leaked? How is that logically consistent much less fair?
Man. I hate disagreements on IE. Here is why. In person, you are exactly the kind of acquaintance I value, particularly with a topic like this. One of my definitions of wealth is having one, or more friends that you can disagree with on any or even every issue, and find value, and wisdom in the discourse. You are the kind of person I would feel comfortable disagreeing with, because the conversation would be so enlightening.

In that spirit I will continue.

I say the difference between the email comments and the video were; A) context, B) content, C) actor, and D) level of pathology.

With the video tape you have a raw recording, that starts before the words in question were uttered. There was no reason for these words to be uttered. In other words, grabbing pussy was not a topic of conversation previously, and of course did not remain a topic of conversation after the exchange.

No one in any of the DNC hacked emails talked about sexual assault in my understanding. And I will clearly state that I think DJT's own words describe actions in toto constitute an incident of sexual assault.

Once again, taking one, two, or three emails out of 40,000 dumped which together, (the two or three,) are only a fraction of the exchange that is in question, makes the email situation totally different than Trumps utterances.

Additionally, about the context, if person A and B are standing together, and person A types on his computer, 'I would like to kill you,' or 'I would like to kill person B' is that the same as if they were standing face to face, and person A said that to person B? I don't think so. From criminal law to psychology, there is clearly a different weight given to the printed word versus the spoken word.

And let's not miss an important point in this conversation. If Hillary Clinton typed, or spoke "Fuck Catholics!", or better yet, "Grab Catholics by the Pussy!" I would be interested in seeing her locked up. My point. Hillary Clinton didn't say any of these things. For all of her shortcomings, she isn't the actor that said the comments you decry. So it is different on that level. These people talking about a couple of rich individual who converted to Catholicism, were being discussed by two minions! One of whom left HRC's employ way before the documents were released, didn't she?

As far as the DNC utterances, I would love to say that they were grossly inappropriate, because I personally have a pet peeve with malicious gossips, really, any one who is about making themselves feel bigger or badder. But the fact of the matter is, that was pretty usual stuff. However, what DJT said, isn't/wasn't the pathology of his comments was much darker.

As well as the fact that, and we have discussed it in many threads on this board, particularly in those related to Jameis Winston and FSU, that our culture sends really poor messages to our young men and boys. You and I both know that someone somewhere set a behavioral queue after hearing that recording.

So in summary, criticize who you want. Saying nasty, backstabbing, gossipy, and stupid things is a particular pet peve of mine. I think John Podesta is as big of a loser as DJT. Hillary got what she deserved having him running her campaign. See? But, instead, I am afraid we are going to get what we deserve by electing DJT.

So, finally don't equate any of these things others say, or that are parts of incomplete conversations, therefore out of context, with complete clear statements made by Trump.

My other problem is using sins of others to diminish anyone's sins. Are you a parent? I've been a parent so long, and have so many kids that I've seen most everything. So when I have one of my kids dead to rights for a violation, you know the one thing I won't take? Is if they try to mitigate their own mistake, by bringing up someone else's bad behavior.

That may in fact be my own big get out of this conversation. I feel that DJT supporters oft say, yes my candidate is awful, but this other person did this, that, and the other thing. Look they're ten times worse.

I'd rather just sit down with most of those people for a beer, and all agree that they're all fucked up, and discuss how do we dig ourselves out of this mess!
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