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Old 07-10-2014, 06:54 PM   #351 (permalink)
Whiskeyjack
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Originally Posted by UmphreakDomer View Post
Whisky--im an atheist.
That's fine. Some of the most intelligent posters on this board are apparently atheists as well.

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you can believe all that you want. again, if you are morally sound, i won't have a problem with you.
What do you consider "morally sound"? Objective morality doesn't really square with atheism.

You made some sweeping statements about where the limits of religious liberty in America should be set; that's what I was responding to.
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:06 PM   #352 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cackalacky View Post
We have had this discussion before and subjective morality is not the same as moral nihilism.
Ethical rules flow directly from one's metaphysical outlook. If your metaphysical starting point is that objective morality doesn't exist (Nietzsche), then there's no coherent way to defend meaningful ethical rules. Relativism has the same problem in the philosophical realm as it does in the empirical; if your scientific model only has predictive power under a very limited set of circumstances, then it's not a very good model. One can hardly have claimed to have discovered a "law". Same goes for models of morality that fail to apply universally.

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Originally Posted by Cackalacky View Post
Yes. We clearly define what we as a society are willing to tolerate and uphold. Other cultures do their own thing.
So what's the source of authority behind this relativistic morality then? Simple group observance? How is that anything other than some individuals imposing their will upon others? It's still Nietzsche.
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:07 PM   #353 (permalink)
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The way we are headed... Atheists get Earth and Believers get heaven.

Everyone should be happy but they aren't.

Fuckin humans
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:22 PM   #354 (permalink)
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:28 PM   #355 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Polish Leppy 22 View Post
I could care less about people's religious beliefs on this board. With that said, I am surprised by the number of non-Christians/ atheists/ whatever, considering people on this board are big fans of the University of Notre Dame, the most prominent Catholic school in the country.

Does it bother me? No. Do I care? Nah. Surprised? Yep.
A good number of Jews are pretty atheist these days, but still embrace the culture. I guess there's some similarity in that I was raised in a pretty Catholic environment, in a country/hemisphere dominated by Christians, and I too still embrace elements of the culture while being an atheist/agnostic/whothefuckknowsist.

I assume most of the Notre Dame players aren't Catholic, and they sure as shit aren't Irish haha. They respect Catholicism to varying degrees though, I am sure. A ton of great people are Catholics, I am not one. But I'm a fan of their football team.

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Old 07-10-2014, 07:28 PM   #356 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack View Post
Ethical rules flow directly from one's metaphysical outlook. If your metaphysical starting point is that objective morality doesn't exist (Nietzsche), then there's no coherent way to defend meaningful ethical rules. Relativism has the same problem in the philosophical realm as it does in the empirical; if your scientific model only has predictive power under a very limited circumstances, then it's not a very good model. One can hardly have claimed to have discovered a "law". Same goes for models of morality that fail to apply universally.
You are asserting a metaphysical basis is the origin of morals and ethics. I contend they are derived from and evolve with the varying culture's interactions on this planet and with other cultures. Japan's feudal structure and system of behavior (GIRI) evolved almost in direct isolation from Western Culture for millenia (or at least repelled significant influences). It is still in practice today and is very much different from our common concepts of moral and valued behavior, however it is currently losing its practice western based individualistic behaviors are now taking root and most likely will supplant it. Morals and values in Afghanistan are for more conservative and more fervently held than ours. They see us as something very much different than we see ourselves. Who is right? Who is wrong?

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So what's the source of authority behind this relativistic morality then? Simple group observance? How is that anything other than some individuals imposing their will upon others? It's still Nietzsche.
We are the source of our authority codified in the laws we allow to exist. China is the source of their authority. Kim Jong Il is the source of his authority. It's not nihilism. Morals exist and the authority of those morals is not metaphysical, or if it is (which I disagree) at least it must somehow be the source of all the different moral codes practiced today and the past. Natural law is not sufficient in this matter either.
 
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:59 PM   #357 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cackalacky View Post
You are asserting a metaphysical basis is the origin of morals and ethics.
Yes. Catholic theology (and Aristotelian philosophy before it) believes strongly in Consilience; which, in the philosophical realm, is probably best articulated by CS Lewis' concept of the Tao:

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In his 1944 book The Abolition of Man, Lewis wrote in support of the great moral tradition that units nearly all of humanity who seek wisdom in ancient texts and modes of life. We have a choice, he argued, of either being part of this great tradition that he called “The Tao” (or “The Way”) or we can be outside all legitimate claims of morality. Morality is to be found, not created, he taught.

“The human mind has no more power of inventing a new value than of imagining a new primary colour, or, indeed, of creating a new sun and a new sky for it to move in.”

It is modern man, scientific and materialist man, who seeks to break the cake of old morality to fit his new ambitions rather than to make his ambitions fit within the larger scheme of natural law that unites so much of the Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Confucionist, Roman, Greek and pagan traditions. Despite our political divisions, the true divide in the contemporary world might be between those who seek to live their lives within the Tao and those who seek to blot any such concept out of the hearts of men and thereby liberate us to be anything any current generation of individuals choose.
It strikes me as odd that most atheists insist on strict consilience in the empirical realm, but are so tolerant of incoherence in their metaphysical and moral outlooks.

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I contend they are derived from and evolve with the varying culture's interactions on this planet and with other cultures.
Evolution, Dawkins' "altruism" genes, etc. cannot be the basis for an authoritative morality, because evolution is an arbitrary process. Order does not spontaneously arise out of chaos.

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Morals and values in Afghanistan are for more conservative and more fervently held than ours. They see us as something very much different than we see ourselves. Who is right? Who is wrong?
If an objective cosmic order exists, then they're all reflective of it (to varying degrees). If no such objective cosmic order exists, then they're all empty and utterly devoid of authority. There's no 3rd coherent alternative.

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We are the source of our authority codified in the laws we allow to exist. China is the source of their authority. Kim Jong Il is the source of his authority. It's not nihilism.
"Objective morality does not exist. Only our collective will." That is text book Nietzsche. I understand that you probably aren't comfortable with the label of "nihilist", but you haven't really distinguished your views from his.

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Morals exist and the authority of those morals is not metaphysical, or if it is (which I disagree) at least it must somehow be the source of all the different moral codes practiced today and the past.
If the source of what you're calling "morality" isn't metaphysical, then it's devoid of authority. And as I mentioned above, the differences in morality between various cultures does not disprove Natural Law one bit.

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Natural law is not sufficient in this matter either.
Maybe not, but it's the only coherent alternative to nihilism. Despite all his hand-waving about genetics, Dawkins is still just painting a smiley face on Nietzsche.
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