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Old 02-26-2014, 08:33 AM   #218 (permalink)
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That's what God IS. "That than which nothing greater can be thought."

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That didn't answer my question. I am well aware that the "gap" is what believers see as what is greater than thought. My question is two parts:

1) If physics plays a role in the "gap" argument (Newton's Law), then that same law would insinuate that something had to have created god. Doesn't that make the "gap" argument invalid, as the creator of all existence cant be made by something else by definition.

2) If the "unknown by human thought" angle is used. Then why is it logical that our human race, which is one organism on a planet of billions of organisms, in a solar system of billions of planets, in a countless amount of solar systems be the living image of god? While "faith" certainly can be the go to way to avoid this question... it certainly isn't logical. Which, correct me if i'm wrong, the "gap" argument is suppose to revolve around the concept of creating god as the logical answer to these questions.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:10 AM   #219 (permalink)
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[quote=T Town Tommy;1237007]
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But the Bible states that man was created in God's image. And man was the only think that God created that way. So He would have a vested interest in watching over us specifically.

As far as the "Gap" theory, I have not read up on it to form any type of intellectual opinion. I guess it comes down to the faith question. If you have faith there is a God, then those things in which we don't understand or can't explain will be explained to us one day when we meet our Maker. And to be quite honest, I have many questions for God when that day comes.
Got me curious..what would be your first question?
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:27 AM   #220 (permalink)
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That didn't answer my question. I am well aware that the "gap" is what believers see as what is greater than thought. My question is two parts:

1) If physics plays a role in the "gap" argument (Newton's Law), then that same law would insinuate that something had to have created god. Doesn't that make the "gap" argument invalid, as the creator of all existence cant be made by something else by definition.
I'm not sure what the "gap" argument is. I'm referring to Aristotle and Aquinas' cosmological argument as well as Anselm's ontological argument. If that's what you're referring to, then I'll try to answer.

The "gap" argument is not trying to explain the existence of God within the realm of physics. Rather, it points out that the realm of physics can't explain everything. We're not abandoning Newton's law when we get to the Prime Mover. Newton's law is abandoning us. It ceases to apply. We're not explaining God WITHIN the laws of physics but pointing out that the laws of physics are limited and only get us so far. To explain existence, we need to leave Newton's laws and apply something higher.



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2) If the "unknown by human thought" angle is used.
Small point: It's not just "unknown" by human thought but "unknowable" by human thought.

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Then why is it logical that our human race, which is one organism on a planet of billions of organisms, in a solar system of billions of planets, in a countless amount of solar systems be the living image of god? While "faith" certainly can be the go to way to avoid this question... it certainly isn't logical. Which, correct me if i'm wrong, the "gap" argument is suppose to revolve around the concept of creating god as the logical answer to these questions.
You're taking the "image and likeness of God" argument too literally. The best way I can explain it is by analogy. A photograph of Notre Dame Stadium on gameday is in the "image and likeness" of Notre Dame Stadium on gameday, but it is not equal to Notre Dame Stadium on gameday. There are sounds, dimensions, feels, smells, the passage of time, etc. etc. that make presence in the stadium different from a photograph. A video is an even closer approximation, but it's still not the same thing. Likewise, though we are made in the image and likeness of God, we have no way of understanding what was "lost in translation" so-to-speak.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:32 AM   #221 (permalink)
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[quote=Grahambo;1237046]
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Got me curious..what would be your first question?
On a personal level, why my parent's died at a young age.

On a fun level, why Nick tried to kick the last second FG against the Barn in last year's Iron Bowl. LOL
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:41 AM   #222 (permalink)
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I'm not sure what the "gap" argument is. I'm referring to Aristotle and Aquinas' cosmological argument as well as Anselm's ontological argument. If that's what you're referring to, then I'll try to answer.

The "gap" argument is not trying to explain the existence of God within the realm of physics. Rather, it points out that the realm of physics can't explain everything. We're not abandoning Newton's law when we get to the Prime Mover. Newton's law is abandoning us. It ceases to apply. We're not explaining God WITHIN the laws of physics but pointing out that the laws of physics are limited and only get us so far. To explain existence, we need to leave Newton's laws and apply something higher.




Small point: It's not just "unknown" by human thought but "unknowable" by human thought
But the fact that physics is what explains the need for a "prime mover" makes this argument illogical. You cant in one hand use physics as the logic behind an argument, only to disregard it once it makes your argument illogical.

The "unknowable" comment was a typo, I assume, since you corrected it, that you knew what I meant though. That being said, that goes back to my point that if it's "unknowable by human thought" than why is the logical reasoning an image of an all knowing power that singles us out of a uncountable amount of matter in the universe? Again... its logic that goes against itself.

Quote:
You're taking the "image and likeness of God" argument too literally. The best way I can explain it is by analogy. A photograph of Notre Dame Stadium on gameday is in the "image and likeness" of Notre Dame Stadium on gameday, but it is not equal to Notre Dame Stadium on gameday. There are sounds, dimensions, feels, smells, the passage of time, etc. etc. that make presence in the stadium different from a photograph. A video is an even closer approximation, but it's still not the same thing. Likewise, though we are made in the image and likeness of God, we have no way of understanding what was "lost in translation" so-to-speak.
Well, to use your analogy, if I were to ask an impovershed kid in Africa to explain to me what Notre Dame stadium is like on gameday, he would have no idea where to start. His world is completely different and it makes no logical sense that his ideas of what the stadium should be like a thousand miles away. That's my point with the "image and likeness of God" argument.

Again... if we are strictly talking about using LOGIC as a basis for opinion, then logic would be that the creator of the universe wouldn't have singled us out of countless amounts of matter in the universe. Our entire population can be compared to only a grain of sand in Saraha. We are a miniscule amount of matter in the known universe. So why is it logical (again, we are talking about the arguments for God that utilize logic for reasoning) to assume that an almighty power created the entire Saraha and one grain of sand in that desert is unique and "made in his image"?
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:47 AM   #223 (permalink)
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Got me curious..what would be your first question?
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:56 AM   #224 (permalink)
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But the fact that physics is what explains the need for a "prime mover" makes this argument illogical. You cant in one hand use physics as the logic behind an argument, only to disregard it once it makes your argument illogical.
Your logical fallacy is assuming "physics can explain some things, therefore it must explain all things." Gravity causes an apple to fall from a tree and start rolling down a hill, and friction causes it to stop rolling. Just because "gravity" is the reason the apple fell and started rolling doesn't mean it's illogical to apply a DIFFERENT reason to its stopping. Following your argument, one would counter "You can't in one hand use gravity as the logic behind an argument, only to disregard it once it makes your argument illogical."

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Again... if we are strictly talking about using LOGIC as a basis for opinion, then logic would be that the creator of the universe wouldn't have singled us out of countless amounts of matter in the universe.
Did I ever agree to those ground rules? Logic only gets you so far but I can't complete the argument without faith. I never said I could.

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Our entire population can be compared to only a grain of sand in Saraha. We are a miniscule amount of matter in the known universe. So why is it logical (again, we are talking about the arguments for God that utilize logic for reasoning) to assume that an almighty power created the entire Saraha and one grain of sand in that desert is unique and "made in his image"?
Vast improbability does not equal impossibility, but if you want to use infinitesimal likelihoods as your argument, look into "irreducible complexity." The mathematical odds that the universe exists exactly as it does simply due to physics and genetic mutations is even more astronomically "impossible" than if it had been intelligently designed. Sure, a lot can be explained by the laws of physics and biology, but some entity had to CREATE those laws in the first place. That brings me back to the first argument about the Prime Mover. You can quote the laws of physics all you want, and you can explain a lot of how things came to be within those guidelines, but how did the guidelines themselves come to be?
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