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Old 02-10-2014, 01:37 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cackalacky View Post
We are disconnected here. I will stop and you can go back to greyhammer's post #97. Probably a good start to get back on track.
Forget Christianity. Let's just talk about a God of any sort.

Perhaps I haven't made this clear but my argument is not that it's inherently worthwhile for every single person to believe in God.

My argument is that it's logical to believe in God IF the costs of doing so do not outweigh the (odds that God exists x the benefit to believing in God). It's basically a purely mathematical analysis. Therefore, every person is different. I might personally place an extremely high value of the benefit of eternal salvation (if it does exist) and associate little cost with going to Church once per week. Someone else might not care about what happens to them after death. Therefore, it's not logical for them to believe in God.

No assumptions are needed at all. If the left side of the equation < the right side, then it's logical, by definition.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:41 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gkIrish View Post
Forget Christianity. Let's just talk about a God of any sort.

Perhaps I haven't made this clear but my argument is not that it's inherently worthwhile for every single person to believe in God.

My argument is that it's logical to believe in God IF the costs of doing so do not outweigh the (odds that God exists x the benefit to believing in God). It's basically a purely mathematical analysis. Therefore, every person is different. I might personally place an extremely high value of the benefit of eternal salvation (if it does exist) and associate little cost with going to Church once per week. Someone else might not care about what happens to them after death. Therefore, it's not logical for them to believe in God.

No assumptions are needed at all. If the left side of the equation < the right side, then it's logical, by definition.
I think you hit here. It gets more complicated when you factor in which religion will you base that risk analysis on. Its further complicated by the fact you were not born into a certain civilization and in a certain time period. Pascal's wager gets very messy. I won't pursue that anymore. I will let greyhammer have at it.
 
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:47 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Cackalacky: no personal jab --- couldn't be; I don't know you. My characterization of the persons who do not believe that they have Freedom of Choice [at all] [i.e. absolute Determinists] as essentially purposeless robots [no matter how complex and charming] must stand by definition. If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of your belief in Determinism as the base of all reality, I can understand that, but it's hardly a "jab" for me to engage in what seems to be a rather clear statement of logical consequence. One is either Free or Determined, Unpredictable or Robotic. I apologize if this created any personal pain or discomfort. In the defense from my Ontology, I didn't intentionally choose to do so. From your Ontology, I still didn't.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:51 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Old Man Mike View Post
Cackalacky: no personal jab --- couldn't be; I don't know you. My characterization of the persons who do not believe that they have Freedom of Choice [at all] [i.e. absolute Determinists] as essentially purposeless robots [no matter how complex and charming] must stand by definition. If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of your belief in Determinism as the base of all reality, I can understand that, but it's hardly a "jab" for me to engage in what seems to be a rather clear statement of logical consequence. One is either Free or Determined, Unpredictable or Robotic. I apologize if this created any personal pain or discomfort. In the defense from my Ontology, I didn't intentionally choose to do so. From your Ontology, I still didn't.
Alrighty then.... I choose to accept your explanation at the conscious level, though at the unconscious level I have no idea what is going on, literally.
 
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:51 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Go to a zoo and sit in the primeape house. Apes are like college bros.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:54 PM   #125 (permalink)
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When it comes down to it, I have no idea what is going on, literally, like ever.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:55 PM   #126 (permalink)
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I spent 20 years in Catholic schools of very different flavors-- poor, pre-dominantly Hispanic Diocesan grade school, wealthy Jesuit all-boy high school, and ND-- and I have never encountered this sentiment. But that's purely anecdotal.

How close in age are we? I get that you are ten to twenty years younger. I specifically mentioned a time because by 1970 that all disappeared, except with one older Jesuit priest I knew. I saw it most in the "immigrant church," and with the old "Baltimore Catechism." I was educated by Jesuits, Sisters of Notre Dame, and then more Jesuits. I also went to a rather remarkable Jesuit prep High School.

My response would, again, be that CS Lewis quote I referenced in my first post:

I think the nature of politics is an extension not a response or improvement of human nature.

I think your issues with the Church (and authority in general) are not due to bad doctrine, but to the fallen nature of Man.

Could be. I don't have much faith in my fellow man. But, I think my issues with the Church are because of my views and my responsibly. I give them no more or less credibility or respect in this conversation than I do yours.

And yet he didn't call any women to Apostleship.

My point is, I think he did.

Where have you read this? I was under the impression that very little is known of the historical Magdelene.
There are many good books on this subject. Most is no more or less extrapolation than some of the commonly accepted "facts" of Jesus' Life. For example, "Jesus the Nazarene" becomes Jesus of Nazareth. There is a dispute as to whether the town of Nazareth existed at the time of Christ. The first extra-Biblical reference is from 221CE. You see? But there are plenty of accounts of the band that traveled with Jesus. I believe it was much more familial and divers than strictly portrayed in the centered pieces pulled from the Gospels.

I did an old college paper on Mary, the name Mary, the distinction between her name Mary and Mother Mary, for instance. I will try to pull it up. My references were good then and now and are what I am reminiscing about when I spoke of her.
 
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