Why student-athletes (and their parents) choose Notre Dame

[IrishinTN]

Originally Posted by daytonirish

These MEN and WOMEN who attend the service acamedies are true athletes. They put there bodies through more physical stress then the any college football player does. Whether you believe it or not. Try fighting in the Iraqi desert or in Afghanistain carrying 100-125 pd ruck sacks in the mountains and heat for days on end. No time outs and no substitutions. Dude they are real athletes . Pat Tillman was an NFL player who left to join the military and gave his life for this country. Quite a few of these guys you see on the field for the academies actually end up in the top special op's units, or leading the Marine units into combat.

Amen to that! And the only evidence I really need is to hear is a student athlete from ND, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, etc., in an invterview compared to the vast percentage (but not all) athletes from other schools. By comparison I hear concise, eloquent answers from students who attend universities that pride themselves on higher education while hearing the "uh's/duh's/ya know's" as the majority of the words sprinkled into the answers of athletes from other schools.

And additionally, I could probably name ten ex-Notre Dame players that are currently analysts for major television broadcasts. These things are relevant in that it shows how these kids are prepared for future interactions when they are able to verbalize their thoughts in an intelligent manner without a great deal of preparation.

[VictorsValiant]

There is one piece of research I can do, and that involves entering credentials. I've looked through ND and Michigan’s recruits in the last three years and I'll post what's on the rivals/scout sites. I only used scout for 2007/2006 (I don’t have unlimited time!) I will only list athletes with a test score in addition to GPA because core GPA, like graduation rates, are deceptive. At the very least, you can conclude that were it not for football, many of these students would not have had any shot at getting into the University, even if the school gave them 20 points simply for being an "under-represented" minority (). An outstanding accomplishment certainly helps, but when you have just a 810 combined SAT while everyone else is significantly higher, you can't make up that gap. Note that very few players from either team had their GPA and test score listed. Notre Dame had just two outstanding academic recruits. Michigan had just one. Overall, the GPA scales and test scores for both teams are roughly the same.

ND (2008):
Robert Blanton: 3.0 GPA, 810 SAT (COMBINED!)
Sean Cwynar: 4.2 GPA, 27 ACT
Ethan Johnson: 3.27 (3.1 Core), 20 ACT (but will retake, didn’t study, retake results not listed)
Brandon Newman: 3.9 (3.8 core), 18 ACT (horrendous!)
Trevor Robinson: 3.92 GPA, 28 ACT (outstanding)
Deion Walker: 3.4 (3.2 Core GPA), 21 ACT
Dayne Crist: 3.6, 1710 SAT (new test)

Michigan (2008):
Sam McGuffie: 3.2 GPA (3.0 Core), 22 ACT
Brandon Moore: 4.2 GPA, 22 ACT, will retake, but retake score not released
Patrick Omameh: 4.0, 28 ACT (Is Black) (Outstanding)
Michael Shaw: 3.22 (3.4 Core), 1550 SAT (I’m assuming he took the new test)
J.T. Floyd: 3.7 GPA, 980 SAT (terrible)

Notre Dame (2007):
Brian Smith: 3.2 GPA, 19 ACT
Robert Hughes: 2.5 GPA, 17 ACT (dreadful)
Matt Romine: 3.4 GPA, 21 ACT
Harrison Smith: 3.7 GPA, 28 ACT, 1850 SAT (new test) (good)
Taylor Dever: 3.0 GPA, 1510 SAT (new test)
Ian Williams: 2.6 GPA, 18 ACT (horrible)

Michigan (2007)
Donovan Warren: 2.9 GPA, 880 SAT (horrendous)
Michael Williams: 3.5, 1650 SAT (old test)
Junior Hemingway: 2.9 GPA, 18 ACT (horrible)
Dave Molk: 3.0 GPA, 25 ACT

Notre Dame (2006):
Matt Carufel: 3.8 GPA, 23 ACT
Konrad Reuland (Has he transferred?): 3.8 GPA, 1610 SAT (new test)
Will Yeatman: 3.4 GPA, 1500 SAT (new test)
Dan Wenger: 4.0 GPA, 1550 SAT (new test)
Toryan Smith: 3.1 GPA, 19 ACT, 1200 SAT (no version listed, but probably new version, in which case score would be atrocious)
Chris Stewart: 4.9/6 GPA, 1650 SAT (new test)
Sergio Brown: 3.0 GPA, 19 ACT
Darrin Walls: 3.4 GPA, 1020 SAT (old test)
Eric Olsen: 2.8 GPA, 1210 SAT (old test)
Demetrius Jones (transferred): 3.3 GPA, 22 ACT
Rob Parris: 3.7 GPA, 1600 SAT (no version listed)
John Ryan: 3.5 GPA, 1570 SAT (new test)
Paddy Mullen: 2.5 GPA, 20 ACT
Zach Fraser (has he transferred?): 3.2 GPA, 990 SAT (horrible)
Barry Gallup: 3.4 GPA, 1430 SAT (old test)

Michigan (2006):
Carlos Brown: 89% GPA, 890 SAT (horrendous)
Obi Ezeh: 3.6 GPA, 24 ACT
Perry Dorrenstein: 4.3/5 GPA, 24 ACT, 1560 SAT (new test)
Justin “Treasonous” Boren: 3.2 GPA, 1120 SAT, 25 ACT

[SoCalDomer]

Originally Posted by VictorsValiant

I'm not accusing ND of anything. I just think the same questions need to be asked of ND athletes as they were asked by the Ann Arbor News in their expose of Michigan football. Even though Michigan was rightfully exposed, I'm very curious about other football programs with good academics (like ND, BC, Stanford, Northwestern, UVA etc...)

why does the same question need to be raised? is there any evidence the schools that graduate 90% of their student athletes are cutting corners in order to arrive at those numbers? The answer is no. Be honest, the only reason you are saying these questions "need to be asked" is because you don't like that fact that Michigan has been shown to be a fraud. There is no other reason for it. Your logic is terribly flawed.

The bottom line is that I don't think you can base success solely on graduation rates because there are so many other factors. You need to look at graduating GPA, the median GPA of graduates from a certain major (grade inflation) and entering credentials. Those factors, so far as I can tell, have yet to be examined.

First, why can't you just look at graduation rates? You have no logical reason other than Michigan's sucks, and therefore you want to focus on other aspects that will help them look better.

Second, I never said the only thing to look at was graduation rates. I also said look at the number of academic all americans there are on a team. For football, also look at the wonderlic scores. You can also look at the types of majors the athletes majored in.

None of those things diminish ND's success. In fact, they only affirm the graduation rate.

With respect to entrance scores, I will be the first one to tell you they are given far too much weight by some admissions offices. Unfortunately, a lot of schools simply admit students with the highest scores irrespective of other aspects of their application in order to boost their U.S. News ranking. But let's be a little honest. The scores wouldn't be used at all if they didn't matter once you were admitted.

What I meant was, they don't matter in the sense that they measure what the school did to educate the student. The college had nothing to do with the student obtaining the score, so why should SAT scores reflect on the quality of education the college is providing.

The service academies are different because their focus is most obviously not on athletics. None of the service academies have good athletes, in contrast to teams like ND who recruit the best (???) athletes.

So what that their athletes are perhaps less athletic than top D-1 schools. The commitment to academics and athletics remains the same. In fact, it is more difficult for service academy athletes, since they must also participate in drills that other schools do not.

[SoCalDomer]

Originally Posted by VictorsValiant

There is one piece of research I can do, and that involves entering credentials. I've looked through ND and Michigan’s recruits in the last three years and I'll post what's on the rivals/scout sites. I only used scout for 2007/2006 (I don’t have unlimited time!) I will only list athletes with a test score in addition to GPA because core GPA, like graduation rates, are deceptive. At the very least, you can conclude that were it not for football, many of these students would not have had any shot at getting into the University, even if the school gave them 20 points simply for being an "under-represented" minority (). An outstanding accomplishment certainly helps, but when you have just a 810 combined SAT while everyone else is significantly higher, you can't make up that gap. Note that very few players from either team had their GPA and test score listed. Notre Dame had just two outstanding academic recruits. Michigan had just one. Overall, the GPA scales and test scores for both teams are roughly the same.

ND (2008):
Robert Blanton: 3.0 GPA, 810 SAT (COMBINED!)
Sean Cwynar: 4.2 GPA, 27 ACT
Ethan Johnson: 3.27 (3.1 Core), 20 ACT (but will retake, didn’t study, retake results not listed)
Brandon Newman: 3.9 (3.8 core), 18 ACT (horrendous!)
Trevor Robinson: 3.92 GPA, 28 ACT (outstanding)
Deion Walker: 3.4 (3.2 Core GPA), 21 ACT
Dayne Crist: 3.6, 1710 SAT (new test)

Michigan (2008):
Sam McGuffie: 3.2 GPA (3.0 Core), 22 ACT
Brandon Moore: 4.2 GPA, 22 ACT, will retake, but retake score not released
Patrick Omameh: 4.0, 28 ACT (Is Black) (Outstanding)
Michael Shaw: 3.22 (3.4 Core), 1550 SAT (I’m assuming he took the new test)
J.T. Floyd: 3.7 GPA, 980 SAT (terrible)

Notre Dame (2007):
Brian Smith: 3.2 GPA, 19 ACT
Robert Hughes: 2.5 GPA, 17 ACT (dreadful)
Matt Romine: 3.4 GPA, 21 ACT
Harrison Smith: 3.7 GPA, 28 ACT, 1850 SAT (new test) (good)
Taylor Dever: 3.0 GPA, 1510 SAT (new test)
Ian Williams: 2.6 GPA, 18 ACT (horrible)

Michigan (2007)
Donovan Warren: 2.9 GPA, 880 SAT (horrendous)
Michael Williams: 3.5, 1650 SAT (old test)
Junior Hemingway: 2.9 GPA, 18 ACT (horrible)
Dave Molk: 3.0 GPA, 25 ACT

Notre Dame (2006):
Matt Carufel: 3.8 GPA, 23 ACT
Konrad Reuland (Has he transferred?): 3.8 GPA, 1610 SAT (new test)
Will Yeatman: 3.4 GPA, 1500 SAT (new test)
Dan Wenger: 4.0 GPA, 1550 SAT (new test)
Toryan Smith: 3.1 GPA, 19 ACT, 1200 SAT (no version listed, but probably new version, in which case score would be atrocious)
Chris Stewart: 4.9/6 GPA, 1650 SAT (new test)
Sergio Brown: 3.0 GPA, 19 ACT
Darrin Walls: 3.4 GPA, 1020 SAT (old test)
Eric Olsen: 2.8 GPA, 1210 SAT (old test)
Demetrius Jones (transferred): 3.3 GPA, 22 ACT
Rob Parris: 3.7 GPA, 1600 SAT (no version listed)
John Ryan: 3.5 GPA, 1570 SAT (new test)
Paddy Mullen: 2.5 GPA, 20 ACT
Zach Fraser (has he transferred?): 3.2 GPA, 990 SAT (horrible)
Barry Gallup: 3.4 GPA, 1430 SAT (old test)

Michigan (2006):
Carlos Brown: 89% GPA, 890 SAT (horrendous)
Obi Ezeh: 3.6 GPA, 24 ACT
Perry Dorrenstein: 4.3/5 GPA, 24 ACT, 1560 SAT (new test)
Justin “Treasonous” Boren: 3.2 GPA, 1120 SAT, 25 ACT

First, you are cherry-picking numbers and making assumptions that you have no basis for making.

Second None of these numbers matter if your point is that some of ND football players would not have made it in to ND on academics alone. Point is well taken, but it actually shows why Michigan's efforts to educate its student athletes is nothing but a joke.

Even if ND accepts a student athlete that would otherwise not have the grades to get into the school based on academics, that student is still 90+% likely to graduate. That actually shows ND brings these athletes up to where they need to be to make the grade.

[Legacy]

VV,
I understand that you are saying:
- you are not that familiar with Notre Dame and its academics
- Michigan, of which you have knowledge, has recently "rightfully" been "exposed" for the academics of its football team by the school newspaper, and
- Notre Dame has so much higher graduation rates that, therefore, there must be something similarly wrong, especially with ND's success on the football field and in recruiting
- therefore, you distrust results that are higher than others, until you get full information that no academic fraud or grade inflation is going on

You seem open to obtaining information about Notre Dame's academics.
1. There are no easy or jock majors at Notre Dame. As an athlete, you have the same choices as everyone, are scattered throughout the dorms with everyone else, and are given the same tests. Here are the majors: Majors, Minors, and Programs // Academics // University of Notre Dame Others may be architecture, engineering, liberal arts, social studies, etc.
I have heard that about 30% of the football players are in the School of Business, which is in the top 25 in the country.
2. Achievement - the ND football team scored an average GPA of above 3.0 for the fifth consecutive semester. Before Weis, the highest was 2.9. 51 players were above 3.0. Notre Dame Football Team Eclipses 3.0 GPA For Fifth Straight Semester :: Prior to 2005, Irish football team had not earned a cumulative GPA above 3.0 for a semester.
3. The NCAA Grad Rates above are based on getting a degree in 6 years. Notre Dame's football program just got the Football Coaches when they tied with Northwestern in '08 with a four year grad rate of 95%.
4. The average ND student - here's a paragraph from the student paper on this fall's class - "Academic criteria for selection has remained as competitive in previous years. The average student graduating in the top 5 percent of their high school class, Saracino said. The average score on the SAT was 1400, Saracino said, and 32 on the ACT."
How does the football team's grad rate compare to the overall student graduation rate, taking the same courses?
(This data is from the year prior to this most recent - http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2007/513.pdf) Overall, ND students graduate at 96% in 4 years, the football team 93% in '07, going up to 95% in '08)
I hope this gives you some of the facts you did not have and help you.

[IrishGrizz]

vv, What is the justification that having bench warmers and walkons grades count inaccurately inflate the overall grades of a team? Do these student athletes not get the same standards to meet as the starters? You implied we may not expect a player who is such a star on the field to also score well in the classroom. That makes no sense. The walk on and benchwarmer/second stringer/nonstar is spending the same amount of time on the field, in the weight room and film study trying to make the team. What separates him is his individual talent. But he has his talents better rewarded in the class room, just like the star athlete who still works hard on his studies with homework, and yes, even tutors to try to keep up his grades. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.
You seem to accept that Michigan (under the 'where there is smoke there is fire' concept) has not taken care of their student athletes in the classroom, but with no smoke and only high grad rates to show the exact opposite at ND, you then do not believe it is probable.

I thought of an analogy- It is like seeing the Michigan players jumping in the pool and trying to swim to the opposite side. But a high number of these players don't make it across. So a study is conducted, showing a number drown, are eaten by sharks or just disappear (flunk out, draft early, transfer, quit).

Now the ND players jump in the pool and a very high percentage make it across- over 90% (compared to the Michigan players 69% or whatever the number is). Yet you conclude a similar study should be conducted because the numbers can't be right. They must be using kick-boards, arm floaties or using the shallow end of the pool to wade across, so it can't be fair.

But I thought the whole exercise was to cross the pool in the water to emerge on the other side (wihere the diplomas are give to start the next leg of your lifes journey).

Just my mind wandering......

[Legacy]

IG,
Loved the analogy. How about adding a lifeguard with their arm around the little athlete on a floatee? Someday, the lifeguard isn't going to be there. Is it any wonder why recruits choose Notre Dame?